I have the wildcat bug and am in the process of doing some research on 404 Jeffery wildcats.

One caliber that I like is the 416 Dakota with it's 30 degree shoulder and somewhat larger case capacity of 109.1 vs 106.1 for the Jeffery.

I was thinking of taking the 416 Dakota case and necking it up to fit the .423 bullet. I would think that the case capacity would be about 111 and if I could keep the 30 degree shoulder it would be a nice round. I would like for the ballistics to be in the range of 2300fps for a 450 gr bullet out of a 24 inch barrel. I would call it a 404 African.

Do you think it would be a step up and would keeping the 30 degree shoulder of the 416 Dakota be possible.

quote:

Why no 404 Jeffery Improved?

Granted this case can be improved substantially by using the Ackley/Gibbs ideas.....but in the end did we actually get a better round?....there comes a time when enough is enough....and the .404 loaded "as is" to modern pressures is one helluva round.

If you choose to do so please report about it here....It seems to be a good idea.

The extremely long neck can use some of Rocky Gibbs thoughts.....

I've built and shot wildcats for 30 years. This is one I would leave alone. Going to the extra cost to add 4% capacity to a case that already has 106grs of capacity is simply a waste. All that for 25fps.

Take a modern rifle new brass and the 404J should have no trouble getting 2300 with a 450gr.

That nice long taper makes that case feed prefectly.

If you really want to play go with the Dakota brass.

That all said if you still want to wildcat the 404 go for it and please let us know how it worked out for you.

I have a 404 Jeffery and like it very much. I just wanted to build something different and the Dakota case seems to be a natural donor. Just for the hell of it I will probably do it.

I would like to see what kind of performance I can get with a 450gr bullet. Also if I use RWS or Kynoch brass that just has 404 stamped,I don't have that issue to deal with.

Good opinions so far.

quote:

I just wanted to build something different and the Dakota case seems to be a natural donor

If I was wanting to play I would simply take the 416 Dakota case and neck it up. Since the base of a 450gr bullet is already around 2.18" from the base or below the neck. Moving the neck forward would only gain you a very small increase of volume.

As I type this my mind jumps to a 450 Dakota necked down.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

I just wanted to build something different and the Dakota case seems to be a natural donor

If I was wanting to play I would simply take the 416 Dakota case and neck it up. Since the base of a 450gr bullet is already around 2.18" from the base or below the neck. Moving the neck forward would only gain you a very small increase of volume.

As I type this my mind jumps to a 450 Dakota necked down.

Oh my a 450 rigby necked down.....I have a 450 rigby and that's enough 450 for anybody.

Now if I just neck up the 416 Dakota, the shoulder would remain at 30 degrees??

416 dakota

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/a...LXiPNWpXUm&catid=201

404 jeffery

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/a...LrOjNCBrdc&catid=313

.404 Jeffery is a round not needed to improve, its so versatile and good as it is . Good performance and little pressure to handle it .

The 404 was the favoured Cape Buffalo cartridge because its velocity wasn't so high that it would over penetrate, exit and wound other buffalo in the herd but had enough 'oomph' to do the job. It was also suitable for all game for the same reason.

Unless I'm mistaken (and Lord knows that's never happened!), Dakota already has a 404 Dakota.

I'm not sure of the specs, but I think it is based on the Jeff, not the 416 Rigby.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
Unless I'm mistaken (and Lord knows that's never happened!), Dakota already has a 404 Dakota.

I'm not sure of the specs, but I think it is based on the Jeff, not the 416 Rigby.

Not the same even though it is based on the 404 Jeffery case and uses the .423 bullet the case is 2.57 long vs 2.85 on the Jeffery and 416 Dakota

Some might say good enough but I don't care for this round.

I designed and built a .358 X .404 IMP.More like a Gibbs IMP rather than an AI.With the right bullet rifle and shooter it will perform at least as well as the .338 Lapua. It would be big medicine on a lot of large game.
Does it fit any void? I think not , but how many contemporary wild cats really do?
Put 20 some rounds through it on the bench last week. It's just not as much fun as it use to be. roger

Ok, Here's a question for reloaders. I have a full set of dies for a 416 Dakota, after making the 416 brass to size,could I use a 404 Jeffery neck sizing die to make this wildcat or should I order a custom die set?

after resizing to 416 Dakota, all you have to do is run a inside neck expander into the neck.....lube will be important and this will work the brass a bit more than necessary but will get you brass to use for a while.

Eventually you'll want a custom die for the job....but simply running a neck expander into the neck will get you ammo to shoot.

Ok, Thanks..

Now I'll order the chamber reamer and get started.

I just happened to check Woodleigh bullets and they show a new offering of a .416 bullet in a 450gr version.

So I guess this wildcat might be pointless after all. I'm glad I checked just saved me a bunch of money.

Wouldn't necking a 375RUM to 423 be the same thing. That is a 404J improved.

quote:

Originally posted by FAST996:
I have a 404 Jeffery and like it very much. I just wanted to build something different and the Dakota case seems to be a natural donor. Just for the hell of it I will probably do it.

I would like to see what kind of performance I can get with a 450gr bullet. Also if I use RWS or Kynoch brass that just has 404 stamped,I don't have that issue to deal with.

Good opinions so far.

enjoy!

Thanks for posting the .423 Van Horn, I was trying to think of who'd already improved the Jeffery but the brain wasn't fully functioning...

There is a major issue that the .423 Van Horn, or any other improved .404 Jeffery, must address - the improved cartridge required an internal magazine length that allows a COAL of at least 3.6" to take advantage of the improved case.

Then the minor issue that C&C constructed bullets have a crimping groove set for a seated bullet to fit within the CIP maximum 3.530" COAL. If crimping is required, either the handloader must purchase a crimp grooving tool to impress a new crimping groove much closer to the base or the bullet shank will be consuming the new-improved space case. Multi-band bullets eliminate this issue.

Dakota had their 404 Dakota and I believe dropped it for their .423 Dakota Lapua round. I thought the 404 Dakota was the same case length as their 416 (might be wrong about this). Couldn't find either in my copy of Modern Cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by stoinski:
Dakota had their 404 Dakota and I believe dropped it for their .423 Dakota Lapua round. I thought the 404 Dakota was the same case length as their 416 (might be wrong about this). Couldn't find either in my copy of Modern Cartridges.

stoinski,
404 Dakota is same length as 375 Dakota: 2.570" brass, shortened 404 Jeffery.
The .416 Dakota has a brass length of 2.850".
The 404 Jeffery max brass length is 2.860".

Gil Van Horn was a genius, Yoda-like guru of big bore wildcatting.
I am sure he realized his efforts at improving the 404 Jeffery were just an exercise in futility, but he was cheeky enough to do it anyway.

.423 Dakota-Lapua: brass length is 2.480"

I tried a full length .338 Lapua Magnum necked to .423 about the same time Dakota did the shortened version of that, my case being 2.724" long.

I found no gains to be had over the standard 404 Jeffery unless you were willing to push pressures towards 68,000 psi, even with the long Lapua.

I scrapped it and went to 404/.416 Rigby Improved Plus aka 404 RIP,
and found slight ballistic gains with the 2.900" Rigby case necked to .423-caliber bullet with a 20-degree shoulder,
though really no significant improvement over the standard 404 Jeffery,
for many reasons.

404 RIP:









For all practical purposes, the 404 Jeffery cartridge cannot be improved.
But it can be ballistically topped by going to a more cumbersome, larger cartridge case.
"404"/.505 Gibbs anyone?

Their is enough variation in 404's as it is
with old and new ammo and chambers !!!

We will end up like the 500 Jeffrey, more types than some car models !!!


And as said above, it doesn't need improving

.

The std. 404 Jeffery's was undloaded at 2100 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet in the beginning due to yesterdays powders and a shortage of good bullets, later it was loaded to hiked up to about a claimed 2300 FPS by RWS and that company still offers that load in Europe I believe...

With todays powders mainly IMR-4831 and to a lesser extent RL-15 its no big deal to get 2400 to 2650 FPS with 400 gr. bullets depending on barrel length. With a 26 inch barrel and 95 grs. of IMR-4831 all my 404s have gotten 2600 FPS some a little more and some a little less. With RL-15 I get an average of 2400 FPS give or take 50 FPS..

That said, I like a load of 93 grs. of IMR-4831 for 2400 FPS plus with a 400 gr. bullet and that load works very well with a 450 gr. Woodleigh at 2366 FPS in my guns and I can get an easy 2400 FPS if I wish..

The 404 case is very near the 416 Rigby in volume, and can be max loaded within 100 to 150 FPS of a maxed out 416 Rigby.

Recoil is easy to handle for me and I'm not into being pushed around by big bores. Also most 423 bullets are velocity sensitive and pushed to fast is retroactive to good penetration with these bullets.

After all is said and done the 404 Jefferys loaded properly with todays bullets and powders is about the perfect combination for big game IMO. Some are of the school that a big bore can turn an elephants charge or knock him out, but I wouldn't bet my life on that, I have seen too many instances otherwise..also the size of the hole in an animals brain makes little difference, so I highly recommend the 404 for animals as large as elephant and perfect for buffalo, Lion and hippo..

Hard round to improve IMO, but to a dyed in the wool wildcatter, such sage advise falls on deaf ears and that's not all bad..