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Gents Tinkering in my shed yesterday and I've come up with my next build Always wanted a 404 Jeffery but been scared away by Horror stories of Building costs and feeding issues Ive slowly accumulated Dies, cases and projectiles, even have a barrel ready, so where to from here Oh and I keep going back to using a Ruger actions..... based on the ease of building the ACCREL series wildcats I can get "shot out" Ruger long actions in either 7mm RM, 300 or 338 for reasonable money, (stock action and rings) the best part about these actions is that they have a squarer magazine box (unlike Winchester that tapers off far to quick for the Jeffery case) an overall length of 3.4 inches, control round feed and a good stock design...when reinforced) Ruger Barrel profile will be just right for a 24 inch 404 (.423) barrel I'm sticking with the original Cartridge 404 Jeffery..... Ok Full length of a 404Jefferey case is 2.875, this is pretty long, with a projectile seated to the cannelure overall max length is 3.530 and this is too long to fit in the Ruger magazine box The 404 Jeffery case has a neck that is about 625 thou long, this is really long by todays standards, but it was designed in a period where feeding from old modified M98's was an issue As you will know, Rule of thumb is that you really only need "calibre length" to hold a bullet properly, however most of the modern case designs have necks shorter than this rule, with this in mind I could trim the 404 case neck down 200 thou and still fit the "rule of thumb" So I trimmed 3 cases to 2.700, taking 175 thou off the length, that still left me with a neck length of 450 thou, which is more than calibre width so still acceptable Loaded up some 400gr Woodleigh's using standard 404 Dies to both resize and seat the bullets and .....................they feed flawlessly thru one of my Ruger Hawkeye Rifles (458 Accrel), 3 in the mag box one in chamber, bolt closed Full Case capacity only dropped 9 grains of powder, I loaded 2 different types of powder to the top of both cases and there was approx. 9 grains difference Original capacity is about 113g, New Case capacity is about 104g All I will need to get is a reamer with the EXACT dimensions of the 404 Jeffery, but with Maximum length at 2.700 not 2.875 Like the 458 WM fired in the 458 Lott, these cases can will also be shot in an original 404 Jeffery Rifle, ........in a pinch Heres a picture with the new cases on the right, originals on the left. note the shorter neck, with No other changes  So throwing it out there for comment, you gents out there with quickload, might tell me what I could most likely expect with 400g projectiles, seated to the cannelure, empty case capacity at 104g, overall length with projectile at 3.375 I understand the 404 Jeffery built its reputation in Africa shooting 400g projectiles at 2150fps, modern powders have lifted this to over 2500fps, with this shorter combination and modern powder I'm guessing I can still achieve 2300-2350 fps Thinking of calling it an 404 Jeffery (S) 2.700 regards S&F | ||
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very.. very close to 10,75x68, mate .. a a very cool round -- though the 416 ruger is more practical #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Great idea; I will build it for you if you pay for the reamer. | |||
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Perfectly doable but just creating a hand loading wildcat using .423" bullets and expensive cases. Why not the 425 Express which is the same .423" bullet but on opened up 300Win Mag belted cases perfectly suitable for standard length actions and giving 2400fps with 400gr bullets which is right up there with all the 416's only a larger frontal area bullet. You would expect to get one more down in the magazine too. Nothing wrong with what you propose but it ain't a 404 Jeffery and cannot use 404 factory ammo. | |||
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 Be happy!! Go ahead and do it. I made a 8mm x404 X 2.5" Imp. Couldn't buy Factory ammo for it either. For those of you who might not be aware this is the "wildcat" forum.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Absolutely and the 425 Express is a wildcat, just more ways to skin a cat  | |||
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take a serious look at the 338 RUM. It is, iirc, about 2/10ths of an inch shorter than the rest of the family. Or, a 425 Westley Richards. 2.64" case length, designed to fit in a standard Mauser 98 box. | |||
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I can't imagine a better caliber than the standard 404 jefferys with a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS or a 450 gr. Woodleigh at 2350 FPS and you can get 2400 with that bullet in most guns. In my opinion H-4831 or IMR-4831, I think a lot of folks use RL-15 but Ive found it a long second best, and a 100 FPS slower with more pressure. I sent some test rounds to North Fork some years ago and they were 2600 FPS in my 26 inch gun and 259? in his test barrel at reason, but max pressure, but recoil took me to the magic 2400 FPS for DG..I shot a lot of buffalo with the 404 Jefferys, mostly from Nostalgia, and the 416 Rem at the same velocity without my beloved nostalgia, both are fine calibers for all that walksm any difference in killing effect or whatever would have to be in the mind of the beholder. To me a 404 must be rust blue, a Mauser preferably a true magnum, and have a wood stock..The .416 can be otherwise. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I thought about this a few years ago. I came up with the conclusion that it would be best to use a full 404 chamber to use factory ammo single loaded over a mag of shorter neck version. You may decide later to mod the gun to feed the CIP spec rounds later. I thought the 404-375 was a better option later. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Your concoction is basically a 425 Wesley Richards without a rebated rim..I like that..If I could put nostalgia aside, Id call your wildcat a dandy!! but Nostalgia is bread into me I suppose.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I really like your wildcat idea, even though I already have a 404 Jeffery that I love. Somebody school me please. How is this wildcat different than a 404 Dakota? Different shoulder angle? | |||
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Build it shoot it and kill big stuff! If you get a reemer made I would happily buy it when you are done and build one on a old action I have laying around. | |||
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The Dakota is a shorter improved shoulder-angle case whereas the "idea cartridge case" just eliminates the excess neck length of the original Jeffery case. In a 3.4" magazine rifle I imagine the net case capacity with the same bullet would be virtually identical. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Thanks Capoward! | |||
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The best way to improve a 404 is to make it shoot .410 bullets; like it should have from the start. (And like I make them) The 423 bullet is a bastard and always will be, but the .410 is very common. | |||
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The 450 Thumper has a short-necked version also, developed with the assistance of boom stick over 11 years ago. The ghost of wildcats past:  
Hear, hear! Cheer, cheer! Absolutely cool idea.  I like your method of using 450/400 NE 3" reamer and dies with 404 Jeffery brass, in a Douglas 41 Magnum barrel. Or maybe I'll try a .416 Dakota chamber reamer with throat reduced for .410-caliber bullet, and the thicker-necked Norma 404 Jeffery brass in the .416 Dakota handloading dies to load a .410/.416 Dakota. Douglas barrel. I now have a Douglas .410"-groove/.400"-bore barrel, in hand just 4 days after I ordered it.  I am going to play with brass and dies and see if I can decide on one of the two methods above, for starters. The ".410 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express Aboriginal" has a ring to it. Did not Rigby do a "one-off" of the 450/400 Rimless NE early on? For now, I am just going to call it my ".410 Rifle" project, as opposed to a ".410 Shotgun" project. I am now a .410 fiend also. Riflecrank Internationale Permanente. Incurable is spelled the same in French and English.  | |||
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I'd rather keep the long neck and push the shoulder back until the OAL was right. | |||
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I bought a Oberndorf Mauser with the same caliber, 404 Jeffery shortened to 2,700" in Metric 68,5mm. With 5% lower load with 400 grs Woodleigh bullett you get the same performance as with the long Jeffery and 404J normal load. In my mind this "new" cartridge must be a smarter one, shorter cartridge, less powder and the same performance.. SCI Official measurer. | |||
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Hi I just bought a Oberndorf Mauser in this caliber, a gunsmith here in Norway made this 404 Jeffery with 2,700" case (In Metric it`s 68,5mm) I also found out that with 400 grs Woodleigh RNSN I get the same performance with 5% lower load than in the originally Jeffery this is interessting because you can use a short action Rifle and get the same performance as with the long ones.
SCI Official measurer. | |||
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Yep, excellent idea. A gunsmith would just need a special reamer to chamber it with proper neck and throat for the chosen brass overall length (BOaL). Imagine a separate 404 Jeffery body reamer, plus a separate 404 Jeffery neck-and-throat reamer with the standard throat for any neck length desired, plus a 404 Jeffery throat-only reamer for any throat you want. Or imagine a custom, single, all-in-one reamer. Then use standard 404 Jeffery reloading dies plus a Lee "Factory Crimp" die. I believe the Lee "Factory Crimp" die that I use for the 404 Jeffery stays off the shoulder and could be used on a shorter necked version. If not, Lee makes them to order, last time I checked. Since this thread started I have come to enlightenment regarding the .410/404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express. Very much the same good features there too. It is a 450/400 NE 3-Inch (.400 S. Jeffery of 1896) that has been shortened from 3.000" to 2.875" BOaL, and formed from rimless 404 Jeffery brass, necked down to .410-caliber bullet, instead of the rimmed .400 S. Jeffery brass. If you use the common CZ 550 Magnum, the COaL can be up to 3.8" and equal or exceed the effective case capacity of the original 450/400NE3" as used in DR's. Or you can load it shorter, to standard 404 Jeffery COaL, and use less powder for about the same pressures and velocities attainable with the longer cartridge. It is what William Jackman Jeffery (R.I.P.) must have started to make, pre-1904. However, he had to switch to a larger caliber to let off some pressure due to Cordite loads of the time. It is the one above the "2017" in this picture showing the milestone years of technological evolution. 2017 is the year that progress made a U-turn:  There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.  Riflecrank Incurable Permanente  | |||
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Where do I get a Lee Factory crimp die for 404 J? SCI Official measurer. | |||
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Very interesting! However, I've recently read about opening up a Ruger MkII by using RSM magazine and followers (Spring is the same across the board of all MKII"s). A little trimming on the front and back to get the magazine to fit, and voila, 3.6" non-RSM. Boom brings up a good idea of using the standard reamer for single loading a factory round. Wouldn't this basically create a freebore with the 404 Short? Should function just fine, and would be shorter than Weatherby spec freebores If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Bingo Exactly Ding ding ding We have a winner Also you can use your short brass and load to spec OAL (3.53") and use existing load data single loaded later having the option to modify the action to feed CIP spec 404 rounds. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Not so good with long free-bore parallel-sided as wide as the brass cartridge case neck. It would likely be inaccurate. Bullet could wallow and wobble while jumping the gap. Long, parallel-sided free-bore only works if the diameter of that free-bore is only .0006" to .001" greater than bullet diameter, IMHO. There is more than one way to skin a wildcat. Riflecrank Incurable Permanente | |||
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Atkinson posses a good thought with the .425 WR. Make it in a single shot on a Mod. 98 action. No magazine or bolt face problems. If you were thinking a single shot Ruger ;why not a single shot Mauser. I've gone this route with no negatives. Try it you'll like it. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Was thinking about this more after rereading the thread. How is this different (using a standard 404J chamber) then 458 Win in a Lott chamber? Isn't that one of the "benefits" of the Lott? Or 458x2 in a Win Mag. I don't believe I've ever read on here that firing the short case in the long chamber is inaccurate and wobble inducing. With such an overly long neck in the original 404, .2" should be the same as the straight-ish cases, no? If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Bingo! The positives outweigh the negatives would you not say? Something to consider in the formula is the OAL. Traditional 404 has shorter tip to canalure that some of the .8" protrusion on same carts. A .8" protrusion would close the gap as it were. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I built a 416 and a 404 on the .375 Ruger case for a doctor in Twin Falls..Both were full blown customs with all the bells and whistle and the best of wood..I test fired and worked up some loads to go with them..I really liked both of those guns and Im surprised That Ruger didn't come out with the 404 as I was told they intended to.. DPCD, As to the .423 bullets being a bastard size I don't see that as almost everyone today produces .423 bullets, RWS, Norma, GS Customs, Barnes, Swift, HOrnady, and others... .410 bullets on the other hand are rather hard to come by, but they can be had, mostly from Woodleigh, as a few of the 450-400s had .410 bores while other .450-400s had .411 .412, and no telling what else..I even had one that was .414 in one barrel and .412 in the other. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development Another 404 Jeffery Idea ??
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