THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM GUN CLEANING FORUM

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How many centerfire rounds without cleaning before accuracy suffers?
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Picture of Kyler Hamann
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How many rounds do you shoot in your accurate centerfire rifles before they NEED to be cleaned? (For this discussion I am defining "accurate" as sub-half minute groups).

I don’t need to clean to keep busy or enhance my range experience. I only do a full cleaning when the groups open up. My most accurate centerfire rifles seem to tail off in accuracy after about 30 to 50 rounds.

But I bump into these long range sniper type guys, both actual SWAT members and wannabes, that claim the shooting schools now instruct that cleaning is a terrible thing. Last summer I guided a SWAT guy that really chastised me for cleaning too often. Supposedly they’re consistently being trained not to clean for several hundred rounds…. In my 35 years of shooting, and loading for dozens of rifles, that makes no sense to me. How are they shooting that many rounds without seeing poor accuracy?

The flip side is the bench rest guys who clean every few rounds. A bench rest buddy of mine considers a barrel ruined if it goes more than 40 or 50 rounds without being cleaned to bare metal.

I can see where spending more on a barrel might help it go longer without fouling bad, but I have some decent quality barrels and while they might be easier and quicker to clean, they still don’t seem to go many more rounds before the accuracy suffers.

How are these guys getting away with “several hundred rounds” without cleaning? Maybe they’re just looking for “minute of torso accuracy” instead of sub-half minute of angle? Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Kyler


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Posts: 2503 | Location: Central Coast of CA | Registered: 10 January 2002Reply With Quote
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I find overbore magnum cartridges like the 300WM and 7mmRM need cleaning more often than a 308Win.If you want to put your rifle to the test shoot it out farther.Rifles can shoot many rounds at distances below 100yds without cleaning but over 100yds is another story.The most accurate groups I get from my rifles are the ones fired right after the bore is cleaned to the metal.
Copper and carbon fouling rob accuracy and the more you have in the bore the less accuracy you will get.
 
Posts: 11651 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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I have found most of my accuracy issues relate to dirty copper fouled barrels. In the past I have not been religious about cleaning guns.

Bolt rifles and single shots I clean after ever range use.

I am normally shooting 20-40 rounds per gun per trip.

I put gunslick foam 2-3 times thru the barrel and let it run thru a 30-60 minute cycle with each foam application. I then pull boresnake thru it 3-5 times. I am too lazy to run patches. I may coat some gun oil if I am not going to shoot the gun for a while.

My regular range guns (Blaser R8 and k95) I don’t oil the barrel as I use the gun once a week.

I don’t like cleaning guns. Gunslick and boresnakes make it easy.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Kyler:

I am wondering the same thing; I used to clean about that often but a guy who shoots F class tells me going longer is not an issue.

One thing I am doing with my LR guns is chronographing every round I shoot; I noticed with one of my Lapuas that MV was creeping up by about 20 fps. I cleaned the rifle and MVs returned to their normal range. Can really say if accuracy suffered, but MVs were definitely higher and less consistent.


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Posts: 7570 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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I don't think there is any one answer to this question...if you were taught/learned to clean incessantly then that's what you will do...WITHOUT THINKING MUCH ABOUT IT. How many REALLY think about what is going on when you "clean" your rifle anyway.

Copper, lead, smokeless and smoke ALL require different cleaning process...even different powders require more than a cursory thought process...you just have to start thinking beyond the "usual" envelope.

AS far as "how many rounds..."...how many times must it be said that EVERY RIFLE IS DIFFERENT. Much of it depends on caliber size, velocity, amount of powder, condition of barrel at the beginning(new vs well used vs polished vs rough, button vs cut vs hammered, etc...).

YOU must determine the point by actually shooting YOUR individual rifles. I have rifles with fairly new, polished small cal barrels that need 2-3 rounds to "season" after a thorough cleaning (down to the bare metal) to start shooting small groups than that lasts for 25-200 rounds or more before the "bugholes) start opening up...others might need 15 or so rounds to season and only last maybe 20-25. Those mostly 17-20 cals only get the powder residue removed with 2-3 patches of TM or Butches with Kroil or just Kroil/#9...some of the "better" barrels get scrubbed with Flitz, Iosso, or J-B.

I write the cleaning process for each rifle in the rifles notebook in big letters on page one...this can be a real chore if you have many shooters but it only has to be written ONCE...BUT checked periodically as barrels wear and throats recede.

Finally, I give ALL my shooters a good going over at least once a year whether I shoot them or not...I wake up sometimes dreaming of cleaning...or is it I'm cleaning while I dream???? Confused Roll Eyes

Basically, in the end, each of us cleans our weapons and THINKS we are doing it right...and the USE determines the outcome. Eeker

Good Hunting tu2 beer
 
Posts: 1211 | Registered: 25 January 2014Reply With Quote
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I have run my own experiments. My old 22-250 before rebarrel could go to about 60 rounds before groups started to open up. My 270 WSM likes a dirty barrel and shoots its best groups after 5 rounds and then starts to open back up after about 25 rounds. My 7x57 and 6.5x55 both shoot great until about 30 to 35 rounds. I have not experimented with 6.5-06 like that yet, probably won't since barrel life is short.

I do not mind cleaning my guns. Up until recently I used Hoppes and Sweets. I switched to wipeout and won't look back.
 
Posts: 747 | Location: Camp Verde, AZ | Registered: 05 February 2006Reply With Quote
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I will give a different perspective. I shoot "Service Rifle (5.56)" highpower competition and my mentor shoots this also along with being on the Veterans U.S. Palma Team. I am shooting at the high end of "Expert", he is a "High Master". During an NRA, one day match we will shoot 88 rounds, two days are 176 rounds. During the National Matches we will shoot 240 shots for record plus 24 sighters for a total of 264 rounds over the four days. Most competitors will not clean their rifle during this time, (for one of several reasons).
I do acknowledge we are not looking for guilt edge accuracy, just consistency. Yet, after shooting all that, I have gone to my local range (200 yrds.) while shooting prone w/sling put 10 rounds rapid into the "X" ring.
Maximum power on the optics are 4.5X, ranges are 200, 300, and 600 yrds. My mentor shoots a M1 Garand in highpower and his Palma gun is 308 Win., all open sights.
I said all of that to say this, "It is a matter of perspective, what are you asking of the projectile?" My service rifle may shoot 300 rounds before I clean it and acceptable accuracy does not suffer. My 6mm x 284 Win. w/105 gr. Sierras that I use on long distance Coyotes or Woodchucks, shoots no more than 12 rounds before I clean it. Then after cleaning I fire 2 rounds to foul the bore. Yes, I only take 10 rounds with me.
Your question get an "It depends".
Doug
 
Posts: 478 | Location: Central Indiana | Registered: 22 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Doug,
That makes decent sense. Maybe the sniper types are comfortable accepting Minute of Torso accuracy at distance. But it seems that folks trying to keep to 1/2 MOA typically aren't able to go more than 30 to 50 rounds (at the most) before they need to clean - especially when using bigger/faster cartridges.

I can think of a whole lot of stuff I'd rather do instead of cleaning... and was wondering if folks had found a loophole out there. But apparently there isn't much choice but to clean pretty often.

Thanks,
Kyler


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Posts: 2503 | Location: Central Coast of CA | Registered: 10 January 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I have found most of my accuracy issues relate to dirty copper fouled barrels. In the past I have not been religious about cleaning guns.

Bolt rifles and single shots I clean after ever range use.

I am normally shooting 20-40 rounds per gun per trip.

I put gunslick foam 2-3 times thru the barrel and let it run thru a 30-60 minute cycle with each foam application. I then pull boresnake thru it 3-5 times. I am too lazy to run patches. I may coat some gun oil if I am not going to shoot the gun for a while.

My regular range guns (Blaser R8 and k95) I don’t oil the barrel as I use the gun once a week.

I don’t like cleaning guns. Gunslick and boresnakes make it easy.

Mike


Mike,

I hope your are not using those bore snakes on your Blazers!

They pick up and embed shit in them and it's like running a piece of emery paper down your bore.

Barrel makers love the bloody things. Wink

Unless you put them through a dishwasher after each use to get rid of the crud they will screw your barrels in a heart beat.

And for God sakes don't use bore solvents with a high proportion of ammonia, they will etch the barrel steel if left in longer than 15 minutes.

I use a Pro Shot stainless rod/bore guide and a bronze brush, which is rinsed cleaned after every series of passes in white spirit. Patch out with a spear tip jag. And finally lube the bore and the CHAMBER with a soaked transmission fluid mop after the barrel is clean. Store muzzle down in my safe.

And if you ae worried about oil, use automatic transmission fluid in the bores after cleaning, you will find less POI variation from a clean barrel to a dirty one if you use it.

Regards,

Blair.
 
Posts: 15784 | Location: Australia and Saint Germain en Laye | Registered: 30 December 2013Reply With Quote
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Again it depends on the particular gun..I have an old Ruger 77 30-06, a birthday gift from my son that shoots under a half inch everytime..I clean it once a year if that, and when I do I have to shoot it at least 50 to a 100 times before it starts shooting that kind of groups again..Actually its way overdue as we speak..Thats very unusual circumstances thank goodness..

With most guns, depending on what you use them for, Id say ever 50 rounds, but the bottom line is the gun will let you know, when the groups open up its time to clean, all else is guess and by gosh..


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41758 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Friend of mine, one of the top long range shooters in the world, shoots 3-4000 rounds a season, says she does NOT clean her barrel the whole season unless something starts to go funny. modern smokeless powder doesn't dirty a barrel up. If coppering or something happening, something else. This friend of mine, has 2 daughters who are also top shooter. One has won the Wimbledon 1/2 dozen time. her one daughter, a few years back, shot a score of 2396 out of 2400 using a Tubb 2000 rifle in 260 Remington, do win the National Matches at Camp Perry. Barrel likely not cleaned the whole week. I do usually run a patch with Hoppes #9 and some dry ones through my rifles, after hunting, but that it. Never use brushes in mine. Use One Shot bore cleaner if concerned about copper.
 
Posts: 501 | Location: Maryland | Registered: 18 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Rick Jamison(IIRC) did a test in which he did not clean a rifle for something like a couple of thousand rounds. I read the article a long time ago so the details are fuzzy but I believe he was shooting a 223 and the test was conducted to see the effects of not cleaning on both pressure and accuracy.

He figured that accuracy would continue to degrade and pressure would increase until at some point it became unsafe.

Instead what he found was that accuracy degraded a bit then leveled off after a hundred of so shots. Accuracy remained consistent through the +-2,000 rounds fired during the test.

Does anyone remember that article?


Jason

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Posts: 6834 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With Quote
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It depends. The barrel will tell you, and its opinion is the only one that matters. My target rifle has 1000 rounds through it this winter and I’ll probably clean before the summer target season starts. Some shoot well from clean, and others need anywhere from one to a box of shells to settle down. I’ve even had a very few barrels that only shot well when meticulously clean, and then only for a few groups. Those are very rare.

Many people live near oceans and in damp climates. They should do whatever they have to do to stop their guns from rusting. Ditto for long term storage, better safe than sorry. I live in a semiarid climate and will generally clean everything but the bore unless I get caught in a rain storm.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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I can go a hunting season or rock chuck season without cleaning and no ill effects, I use a bore snake now and then, if groups open a bit, but mostly Im the villain on that, not the guns.
I clean once maybe twice a year and believe in fouling shots before you hunt..

there has never been an animal killed by a firearm with a clean bore..


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41758 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Blair 338RUM:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I have found most of my accuracy issues relate to dirty copper fouled barrels. In the past I have not been religious about cleaning guns.

Bolt rifles and single shots I clean after ever range use.

I am normally shooting 20-40 rounds per gun per trip.

I put gunslick foam 2-3 times thru the barrel and let it run thru a 30-60 minute cycle with each foam application. I then pull boresnake thru it 3-5 times. I am too lazy to run patches. I may coat some gun oil if I am not going to shoot the gun for a while.

My regular range guns (Blaser R8 and k95) I don’t oil the barrel as I use the gun once a week.

I don’t like cleaning guns. Gunslick and boresnakes make it easy.

Mike


Mike,

I hope your are not using those bore snakes on your Blazers!

They pick up and embed shit in them and it's like running a piece of emery paper down your bore.

Barrel makers love the bloody things. Wink

Unless you put them through a dishwasher after each use to get rid of the crud they will screw your barrels in a heart beat.

And for God sakes don't use bore solvents with a high proportion of ammonia, they will etch the barrel steel if left in longer than 15 minutes.

Blair.


I agree 100% with this. Watch a competitive shooter clean his or her barrel - never seen one use a Bore Snake.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
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Posts: 7570 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
I hope your are not using those bore snakes on your Blazers!

They pick up and embed shit in them and it's like running a piece of emery paper down your bore.
This is why I use stainless steel rods, not aluminum ones. I worry that aluminum will pick up grit.
 
Posts: 939 | Location: Grants Pass, OR | Registered: 24 September 2012Reply With Quote
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A bore snake is nothing more than a bronze brush and a polyester woven fabric. Not sure i understand...how does that embed anything in weapons grade steel?
 
Posts: 1312 | Location: MN and ND | Registered: 11 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by JonP:
A bore snake is nothing more than a bronze brush and a polyester woven fabric. Not sure i understand...how does that embed anything in weapons grade steel?
I don't think of boresnakes or aluminum rods embedding anything in steel.

I think of things being embedded in the aluminum of the rod or the boresnake, and scoring the barrel when the pristine barrel surface rubs against the 'snake or rod. IMO, scoring is more likely with a boresnake than a rod, but I choose not to gamble with either.
 
Posts: 939 | Location: Grants Pass, OR | Registered: 24 September 2012Reply With Quote
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Throats are wallowed out by rods, rods have ruined more bores than shooting or bore snakes. I clean my boresnakes and keep them in clear plastic boxes..some seem to think barrel steel is made from putty!!


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41758 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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