In Denver recently a man was arrested after he killed a man who had punched him.

Apparently the man was upset at some neighborhood kids shooting fireworks and when he yelled at the kids, the mom came out and got really aggressive with him. Her husband/boyfriend then came out and attacked the guy (who was a guard at a local jail).

The shooter is now in jail with a large bond, and has been suspended from his job without pay. He is facing 2nd Degree murder charges.

The shooter is a Caucasian and the dead guy is black, which, IMO, raises the politics of the shooting.

What is interesting, is that a very similar situation occurred in Florida a while back, and the shooter was not charged with anything, although the video was shown on National news in order to try and stir up sympathy for the dead guy.

So the question is? When do you shoot?

BH63

When you (or any reasonable person in your situation) has reason to believe that you are in danger of suffering grievous bodily harm. I believe that is the standard in Florida.
Now, if you are armed and initiate a confrontation then all bets are off!

"the video was shown on National news in order to try and stir up sympathy for the dead guy."
Oh! You don't think that it was perhaps just news?
Videos of shootings are not that common, although more so nowadays with everyone having cell phones.
Peter.

Unfortunately Politics can play a huge roll if one is prosecuted or not.

Denver is a hot bed of liberal ideas.

This fellow needs expert witness that can show being punched is deadly force.

Here are some good articles discussing it.

https://gunwatch.blogspot.com/...otential-deadly.html

https://gunwatch.blogspot.com/...-punch-homicide.html

https://gunwatch.blogspot.com/...e-deadly-threat.html

That is part.

Was he a willing participant by starting the altercation by yelling at (“verbally assaulting”) someone else’s kids?

I don’t disagree there is a political aspect to what is going on, but it’s not an open and shut case. I’d say let the police do their job first.

quote:

Was he a willing participant by starting the altercation by yelling at (“verbally assaulting”) someone else’s kids?

I guess kids never should be yelled at.

Right.

Way back in the early 60's I worked with a guy
Kids from across the road dropped an M-80 thru
his mail box slot into the house then ran of
course.

He took a couple shots at 'em and missed.
Went to prison for 8yrs for 'attempted murder'.

George

https://localtvkdvr.files.word...80-mathews-scott.pdf


The arrest report. He will be going to jail is my guess.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
In Denver recently a man was arrested after he killed a man who had punched him.

Apparently the man was upset at some neighborhood kids shooting fireworks and when he yelled at the kids, the mom came out and got really aggressive with him. Her husband/boyfriend then came out and attacked the guy (who was a guard at a local jail).

The shooter is now in jail with a large bond, and has been suspended from his job without pay. He is facing 2nd Degree murder charges.

The shooter is a Caucasian and the dead guy is black, which, IMO, raises the politics of the shooting.

What is interesting, is that a very similar situation occurred in Florida a while back, and the shooter was not charged with anything, although the video was shown on National news in order to try and stir up sympathy for the dead guy.

So the question is? When do you shoot?

BH63

The correct facts

https://www.denverpost.com/201...-shooting-fireworks/

The shooter had head butted the victims girlfriend and had use violent force on her before the victim punched him.

The shooter and his girlfriend had drawn weapons in an argument.

Self defense looks remote at best.

From correction officer to convict will be a big change for the shooter

Mike

This is a seriously stupid person and will deserve to rot in jail.

If you have issues with fireworks or anything call the police.

A correction officer is not a cop.

Drawing a weapon in an argument is stupid.

Best to walk away.

Same reason why Tryvonne Martin was stupid for physically hitting Zimmerman.

In this case the shooter hit the victims girlfriend - there goes self defense.

A person starting a fight does not have shield of self defense.

What an idiot and he deserves what he is going to get.

Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Mike

Deservedly so. What an idiot. Anybody yelling at my kids and then head-butting my wife is going to get punched too.

You have to wonder if alcohol was involved. 4th of July holiday, a bunch of stupid behavior. The whole thing is just a tragedy. A few minutes of bad decisions kills one man and ruins the other man's life.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
https://localtvkdvr.files.word...80-mathews-scott.pdf


The arrest report. He will be going to jail is my guess.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
In Denver recently a man was arrested after he killed a man who had punched him.

Apparently the man was upset at some neighborhood kids shooting fireworks and when he yelled at the kids, the mom came out and got really aggressive with him. Her husband/boyfriend then came out and attacked the guy (who was a guard at a local jail).

The shooter is now in jail with a large bond, and has been suspended from his job without pay. He is facing 2nd Degree murder charges.

The shooter is a Caucasian and the dead guy is black, which, IMO, raises the politics of the shooting.

What is interesting, is that a very similar situation occurred in Florida a while back, and the shooter was not charged with anything, although the video was shown on National news in order to try and stir up sympathy for the dead guy.

So the question is? When do you shoot?

BH63

The correct facts

https://www.denverpost.com/201...-shooting-fireworks/

The shooter had head butted the victims girlfriend and had use violent force on her before the victim punched him.

The shooter and his girlfriend had drawn weapons in an argument.

Self defense looks remote at best.

From correction officer to convict will be a big change for the shooter

Mike

Anyone who quotes The Denver Post as publishing “the facts” is living in fantasy land.

I remember a half page article entitled “A Gentle Giant” referring to the black thug that was killed in Fergerson, MO after beating a police officer who wanted to question him about an assault he committed on a convenience store clerk who confronted him after he grabbed a handful of cigars and was leaving without paying for them.

As for news, how many stations aired the convenience store footage showing the theft and subsequent assault on the clerk? I saw it on a Spanish language station, but apparently that wasn’t “news” worth covering as far as the Fergerson shooting was concerned.

As for the headbutt, people in altercations have been known to lie.

BH63

As for yelling at the kids instead of calling the police, during the 4th the police get hundreds of calls about people shooting fireworks ILLEGALLY. They cannot and do not respond to most of those calls. They just do not have the manpower.

And every 4th, people wind up losing their homes and all their possessions because of fires inadvertently set by illegal fireworks. A few people wind up seriously injured.

I personally know a man who lost an eye because some jackass fired a bottle rocket that hit him in the eye as he was driving his car. He stopped and told a police officer who told him to go to the hospital but there was nothing he could do about finding the guy who shot the bottle rocket.

And again, maybe the guy head butted the woman or maybe the woman just made that up to play victim and justify her boyfriend’s assault.

I know liberals hate “stand your ground” laws because they want the right for them or their boyfriends/husbands/sons to perform beat downs on people they don’t like without getting shot.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
In Denver recently a man was arrested after he killed a man who had punched him.

Apparently the man was upset at some neighborhood kids shooting fireworks and when he yelled at the kids, the mom came out and got really aggressive with him. Her husband/boyfriend then came out and attacked the guy (who was a guard at a local jail).

The shooter is now in jail with a large bond, and has been suspended from his job without pay. He is facing 2nd Degree murder charges.

The shooter is a Caucasian and the dead guy is black, which, IMO, raises the politics of the shooting.

What is interesting, is that a very similar situation occurred in Florida a while back, and the shooter was not charged with anything, although the video was shown on National news in order to try and stir up sympathy for the dead guy.

So the question is? When do you shoot?

BH63

The correct facts

https://www.denverpost.com/201...-shooting-fireworks/

The shooter had head butted the victims girlfriend and had use violent force on her before the victim punched him.

The shooter and his girlfriend had drawn weapons in an argument.

Self defense looks remote at best.

From correction officer to convict will be a big change for the shooter

Mike

Anyone who quotes The Denver Post as publishing “the facts” is living in fantasy land.

I remember a half page article entitled “A Gentle Giant” referring to the black thug that was killed in Fergerson, MO after beating a police officer who wanted to question him about an assault he committed on a convenience store clerk who confronted him after he grabbed a handful of cigars and was leaving without paying for them.

As for news, how many stations aired the convenience store footage showing the theft and subsequent assault on the clerk? I saw it on a Spanish language station, but apparently that wasn’t “news” worth covering as far as the Fergerson shooting was concerned.

As for the headbutt, people in altercations have been known to lie.

BH63

You seem to have a problem with black people

Regardless of that - this idiot will be in jail for a long time. From Jailor to prisoner is an irony.

Simple lesson is don’t shoot people when you start a fight and claim self defense.

Mike

^
“You seem to have a problem with black people Wink”

You seem to be missing the point.

For the record, there a lot of decent black citizens in the USA.

But the liberal news media is quick to spin a news story to advance the idea that LEOs and private non-minority citizens are out gunning down minorities with total disregard for their lives.

This presents, IMO, a real consideration if you are ever forced into a situation where you have to shoot someone.

The Trevon Martin case was a perfect example. Charges were filed only after the media repeatedly presented an edited version of events that incited protests and the potential for widespread violence. The Sheriff actually resigned in disgust as his investigation had already showed that it was indeed a legal use of ready force.

Although, the shooter was eventually found not quilty, his life was ruined. The same thing happened with the police officer in the Fergerson case. His life and the life of his family was ruined by biased and repeated news stories.

So you could do everything perfectly legal but still be charged and convicted solely as an appeasement to an angry crowd.

That is a reality that all gun owners should consider.

I hope I never have to kill someone in self defense, but if I do, I hope he/she is the same race as me.

Justice in our country takes a back seat to political convenience.

That is the point of this thread.

BH63

Zimmerman's life ruined??!! Seriously? he has had several brushes with the law and also this:

George Zimmerman caused a social media stir over the weekend when he retweeted a photo of the dead body of Trayvon Martin, the black teen he shot and killed in 2012 and whose murder he was acquitted of by a jury a year later.

The original message was posted by an apparent admirer of Zimmerman who goes by the nickname @SeriousSlav. He tagged a few people, Zimmerman among them, and captioned the photo, “Z-Man is a one-man army.”

The picture, which was used as evidence during the trial, shows the 17-year-old Martin lying on the ground with policemen standing over him.

The post was removed on Sunday by Twitter, the New York Daily News reported, but not before Zimmerman retweeted the image to his 11,300-some followers.

No stranger to controversy, George Zimmerman tries to cash in on Confederate flag debate
Zimmerman has actively courted controversy in recent months, especially on social media. His Twitter image is of a Confederate battle flag.

Last month, he responded to a hostile tweet by referring to Martin. “We all know how it ended for the last moron that hit me,” Zimmerman replied. “Give it a whirl, cupcake.”
If his life is ruined, I wonder who's fault it is??!!
Why don't you Google George Zimmerman and see the results?
fact is Zimmerman was a jackass. he was told by the 911 person to back off and he did not. I am not defending Trayvon Martin. Only Zimmerna knows what happened that night, but, the point is that it NEED NOT HAVE HAPPENED.
THAT is the point of this thread!
Peter

No this thread is about the politics, particularly racial, of self defense shootings, and the role of liberal news organizations spinning the events in order to try and make the attackers into the “victims”.

Martin, viciously attacked a neighborhood watch volunteer for “following” him.

Anyone who viciously attacks a stranger for following them gets no sympathy from me.

I agree it should not have happened.

If Martin was concerned he should have called the police, or turned and asked Zimmerman “Excuse me, but are you following me?”.

That’s what a normal person would do.

Instead Martin texted his girlfriend using a racial slur “cracker” and then rushed Zimmerman.

Attacking Zimmerman’s character, both before and after the incident, is reminiscent of painting a rape victim as a slut in order to justify the rape.

BH63

My apologies BH63. I completely misunderstood your OP. You said:

quote:

So the question is? When do you shoot?

What (I realize now) you meant to say was:
"So, the question is? When do you shoot a black guy?"
Sorry for my confusion!
Peter.

Nope, you are still confused. You seem obsessed with the black aspect.

It’s not “when do you shoot a black guy”?.

I just used those two black thug shootings because they are well known examples of shooters that were persecuted only because of the mass protests and/or rioting caused by the liberal press portraying the thugs as victims.

The same concept of “being charged with murder based solely upon the political considerations of DAs as influenced by protesters that were agitated by biased reporting” applies to any group seen as “disadvantaged” and needing “protection” by the liberals to include homosexuals, Muslims, Hispanics, and illegal immigrants.

Now, unfortunately, that’s a fact jack.

Actual rule-of-law in those types of shootings no longer applies. If the crowd wants blood, the DAs and judges and often the jury obliges.


Apparently it is more convenient to imprison a LEO or a single citizen, than it is to deal with angry mobs complete with vandalism and looting.

Kind of like sacrificing a virgin into the volcano to appease the Gods of Death and Destruction.
BH63

The political situation in some areas is or can be a lot to deal with.

As we know there are areas that are very anti gun and anti self-defense.

I would recommend a good self-defense policy to help with your possible expenses. I have a membership with

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/

The odds are one most likely well not ever need it but.

It is kind of like other safety products one hopes to never need them.

But wise people have them anyway.

^
That is a good idea but be sure and understand the limits and exclusions.

Besides worrying about criminal charges, there is always the chance of a civil lawsuit, especially if you are well off.

BH63

I agree with p dog, it's just another insurance policy. None of us want to get sick or get in an accident but that is what is considered mature coverage.

Don't complicated it..If your in fear of your life is the best defense end of story..Would you rather be carried by six or tried by twelve, has always been my take on the subject..I was a group supervisor in DEA and that's what I recommended to my team..I would ask no man to be killed on the job..

This man will be tried or the case dismissed I would assume, and we don't know any of the details of the case..No matter what these days your man is going thru a lot of grief and it ain't over til the fat woman sings as they say in baseball..

Ray, I heard that quote many years ago when this woman was pulled over in traffic + the officer saw the gun in her purse, + she said the same thing. My husband felt that I would be better off judged by 12 than carried by 6. Still True.

In some of todays society, the liberal mindset would require the officer take a bullet or two before returning fire, its all BS, and pressure by heathen politicians, who bend which ever way the wind blows and reporters looking for fame and fortue, and seem to protect some thug wanting to loot and get a new set of Niakis, and isn't afraid to kill anyone!

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
In Denver recently a man was arrested after he killed a man who had punched him.

Apparently the man was upset at some neighborhood kids shooting fireworks and when he yelled at the kids, the mom came out and got really aggressive with him. Her husband/boyfriend then came out and attacked the guy (who was a guard at a local jail).

The shooter is now in jail with a large bond, and has been suspended from his job without pay. He is facing 2nd Degree murder charges.

The shooter is a Caucasian and the dead guy is black, which, IMO, raises the politics of the shooting.

What is interesting, is that a very similar situation occurred in Florida a while back, and the shooter was not charged with anything, although the video was shown on National news in order to try and stir up sympathy for the dead guy.

So the question is? When do you shoot?

BH63

The correct facts

https://www.denverpost.com/201...-shooting-fireworks/

The shooter had head butted the victims girlfriend and had use violent force on her before the victim punched him.

The shooter and his girlfriend had drawn weapons in an argument.

Self defense looks remote at best.

From correction officer to convict will be a big change for the shooter

Mike

In layman’s terms, when you initiate the confirmation, does not have to be a criminal assault, you lose the right to lethal self defense. The caveat to that is the other person responds with excessive force/lethal force. Or you abandoned the confrontation and communicate the abandonment to the other person. These general rules need to be overlaid with your jurisdictions case law.

Applying this rules to the stated/asserted facts above. He is correctly charged. I would have so charge him in my jurisdiction. I do that for a living.

Any fist on gun confrontation is treated as highly suspect. And no you do not get to yell at someone else’s kids. Call the parents. If that does not work you call local law enforcement.

A friend of mine's son lived in South Austin in kinda a poor neighborhood. He got home from work one evening to find his wife out in the street telling this Mexican teenager to leave his girlfriend alone because he was beating her right there in the street. So the guy drops his girlfriend + attacks Gabe's wife. So Gabe just grabbed a tire tool out of the back of his truck + laid the kid out. Didn't hurt him bad but took the starch out of him. So he gets arrested for assaulting a minor + has a peace bond on him so he can not get closed that 1000 ft. from the kid so he has to move. Nothing was done to the kid. I use the term "kid" loosely. He was a full-grown pachuko + a definate threat.

When do you shoot? To save yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm. It is the most serious decision that you will ever make in your whole life.

Most of all, don’t put yourself in a bad situation or do something stupid like this guy did.

Keep in mind that once you pull the trigger, most likely you will be taking someone’s life, so even if you are justified you have to be able to live with yourself and what you did.

When you are alone with your thoughts at nigh, knowing that you killed someone isn’t an easy thing to live with

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
Nope, you are still confused. You seem obsessed with the black aspect.

It’s not “when do you shoot a black guy”?.

I just used those two black thug shootings because they are well known examples of shooters that were persecuted only because of the mass protests and/or rioting caused by the liberal press portraying the thugs as victims.

The same concept of “being charged with murder based solely upon the political considerations of DAs as influenced by protesters that were agitated by biased reporting” applies to any group seen as “disadvantaged” and needing “protection” by the liberals to include homosexuals, Muslims, Hispanics, and illegal immigrants.

Now, unfortunately, that’s a fact jack.

Actual rule-of-law in those types of shootings no longer applies. If the crowd wants blood, the DAs and judges and often the jury obliges.


Apparently it is more convenient to imprison a LEO or a single citizen, than it is to deal with angry mobs complete with vandalism and looting.

Kind of like sacrificing a virgin into the volcano to appease the Gods of Death and Destruction.
BH63

Unfortunately, you are 100% correct.

I agree + that's too bad that we have come to this point. I am more concerned about the legal repercussions than I am about taking down a rabid dog of the 2 legged variety. And I would sleep well at night. I remember reading in Col. Cooper's column about a family watching the evening news + showing were an LEO shot this perp. + the little girls were curious why the cops looked so sad after shooting this bad guy + the Col. said I don't get it either.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
I agree + that's too bad that we have come to this point. I am more concerned about the legal repercussions than I am about taking down a rabid dog of the 2 legged variety. And I would sleep well at night. I remember reading in Col. Cooper's column about a family watching the evening news + showing were an LEO shot this perp. + the little girls were curious why the cops looked so sad after shooting this bad guy + the Col. said I don't get it either.

Before I retired from the PD, I knew that a team of attorneys on the Dept's payroll would be there to represent me for free....now that I am retired I know that I am on my own like any other CPW Carrier. Even if a/your shooting is ruled justifiable, you can be wiped out financially....something that I never gave a second thought to before.

I'm looking into private insurance now but unfortunately I live in New York

After the Shot....

Many years ago I read a book called “In The Gravest Extreme”, by Massad Ayoob. If you haven’t read it I urge you to find a copy and digest it. I believe it covers many aspects the average person hadn’t thought about, both after the shot and even before the shot.

Massad's books are very informative. I adhere to a lot of his advice after hearing the horror stories.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
Deservedly so. What an idiot. Anybody yelling at my kids and then head-butting my wife is going to get punched too.

You have to wonder if alcohol was involved. 4th of July holiday, a bunch of stupid behavior. The whole thing is just a tragedy. A few minutes of bad decisions kills one man and ruins the other man's life.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
https://localtvkdvr.files.word...80-mathews-scott.pdf


The arrest report. He will be going to jail is my guess.

Mike

+1!

In many places, you can't shoot if you can run away, a useful rule of thumb. Remember to bob and weave...

Hard to claim self defense if you yourself escalated the situation. Something we should all remember. Always easier to swallow your pride and walk away.

It gets easier after the first one!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
In some of todays society, the liberal mindset would require the officer take a bullet or two before returning fire, its all BS, and pressure by heathens on politicians, who bend which ever way the wind blows.

Not only theses days

True but it seems to be getting worse.

I would never be a policeman today, or allow my children to follow.. Politicians, Judges, lawyers, all with an ajenda..Our system of justice has become political and without honor..No police officer should have to get permission to enforce the law. Go with the flow, don't make waves, the best officers are punished for doing their job, and that makes their their bosses nervous..Its the pits.

Over time the worse cops get transferred and a raise, and like dominos they go up and up until the dregs of life and worthless are running the show, Its called the Peter principle, its well and working in the Federal Govt LE.....

The fix should be simple, let the courts decide, but when you have "judge shopping" the system fails, the truth no longer is sought, it becomes a technical cartoon. Purgery is acceptable by lawyers and defendents, when was the last time some crook went to jail for purgery?? let a cop purger himself and whamo..It has to be fixed sooner or later, hopefully the wheels of justice will prevail.