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It's getting close to what has turned into my annual culling visit Down-under. Big Grin This year its actually two hunts, one with Matt Graham and the other with Barry Seabrook.

I try to work in an informal bullet or caliber test at the same time, mostly out of curiosity. Once it was to win an argument. The volume of animals that can be taken really lends itself to this sort of thing, but my methods aren't very scientific.

This year on the feral hunt with Matt I'll mostly just be shooting up 30-06 ammo that I've stock-piled so I have a pretty good idea how that will turn out. That's 165 gr Hornady Interlocks, 168 grain TSXs and 180 grain Woodlieghs with I can't remember how many Factory Norma Oryxs for variety. Never got to try the Normas last year.

The buffalo portion is a little different. On a previous buffalo hunt that was part trophy and part cull we compared the .375 H&H against the .458 Win with A-Frames in both. 16 buff gave their impressions. This time it will be mostly just seeing if I can really tell the difference between 450 grain A-Frames at 2200 fps and the same bullets at 2350 fps. I think I can, but it takes quite a few animals to be sure. The other part is to compare my current favorite 450 grain A-Frames against the 420 grain CEB Safari Raptors and the matching 450 grain solids. There might be a little room in there to revisit the old mag-full of solids versus all soft debate.

A little side-show is to try some 350 grain .458 TSXs as a lighter recoiling option. I keep hearing people say that they wouldn't hesitate to use them, but they get real quiet when asked if they have done it. For what its worth, a Barnes tech seemed to be confident enough but also stopped short of saying that lots of guys were doing it.

Sideshow #2 is to see whether 380 grain Rhinos can make up for their lack of caliber with weight and wide opening.

Any thoughts or predictions on how things will turn out?
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Dogleg

I assume you have shot a lot of Australian buffalo, so.

I have a question for you,
regarding bullets for the 405 Winchester. I am going to take a mixture of North Fork Solids and North Fork Softs, both 300 grains.

I have never shot an Aussie buff, but have shot several cape buff, with the 450 No2, and the 450/400 3 1/4" with softs and solids and one cape buff, my biggest in horn and body with one 300gr Woodleigh Soft in the 9,3x74R.

I am also taking my 450 No2.

So I am thinking 10 softs for each and 30 solids, for each... [I have 40 rounds approved for each rifle].

I also have some factory Hornady 300gr ammo waiting for me there for the 405 for pigs, and such...

Thanks.


DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
 
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Of your choices I've only used the .450 NE. That turned out OK, but no thanks to the factory loaded Hornady DGX bullets. Calibers I have used are .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .458 Win (loaded hot).450 NE and on a whim a .300 RUM. My son shot one with his 30-06 last year. That was probably one of the dumber ideas I've had lately, but the buff died in a hail of lead.

I have also shot cape buffalo, as well as water buffalo in South America. They are on average so much bigger than capes that it isn't even funny. Shoot a few of the Aussie version and you may not be able to look at a cape the same way again. They are very much the runts of the bunch.The last one I shot reminded me of a pig with horns. WinkSort of cute though.

So far I haven't seen anything that would make me stray from the idea that the biggest thing you can shoot well is about right. I'd use your .450 but take 35 softs/5 solids then not use the solids. After my fourth one I quit using solids at all. Although that flies in the face of tradition, I have to believe my own eyes. Having said that I am taking some CEB solids along for my science project, but that's just the curiosity thing kicking in again.

Have a great trip. The Aussies are great folks that know how to have fun.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Thanks for the info.

So If I am reading you correctly you would prefer the softs over the solids in the 405 and the 450.

The softs for the 405 are the 300gr North Fork, and the softs for the 450 No2 are the 500gr Swift A Frame.

I might also have to back up some other hunters, which is why I was going heavy on solids...


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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My current position is that if I never saw another solid my buffalo hunting would not be hampered.However I do plan on bringing some CEB solids along; if for no other reason than as a field test. I am interested in using them for elephant, and for some reason problems have a way of showing up in the field that no amount of range time will bring about.

If I end up seeing something that changes my mind, then it wouldn't be the first time. Smiler

I'm getting good activity in the PMs; thanks guys.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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We just did the buff cull with Barry Seabrook about 30 days ago. There were four in our party and we took an even 150 of both cows and bulls.
Two of us were using 375 H&H with 300 gr. Swift A Frames and Nosler Partitions, and Barnes 270 TSX. All worked well. One member used a 460 Weatherby with handloaded Hornady DGX, and DGS. He also had some loaded with Jack Carter's original Trophy Bonded which worked impressively. The solids punched through and left much to be desired as far as terminal performance. The fourth guy used a 9.3 x 66, the relatively new 370 Sako with 286 gr. TSX. It worked well.

I also did a buff cull with Matt Graham in 2009 and he recommended using the Barnes TSX exclusively.

Arnhemland is a great place for shooting action and improving your shooting skills.

Geoff


Shooter
 
Posts: 618 | Location: Mossyrock, WA | Registered: 25 April 2004Reply With Quote
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Arnhemland is a great place for shooting action and improving your shooting skills.


Yep, and a great time in its own right.

I'm glad to hear that you had a good trip. Your observations on the solids mirror my own.

I did a buffalo cull with Matt, or at least with his outfit in 2011, then went back every year since. I know he is partial to TSXs and Woodleighs, solids not as much.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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I am suprised that you guys are so down on Solids for Aussie buff.

Seeing as how they are bigger in body than an African cape buff, I figured that solids would be the way to go after the first shot with a soft.

I had planned on taking 10 softs and 30 solids for each rifle.
[Most of the Solids for the 450 No2 are the North Fork Cup Points, and I have a few boxes of Hornady 405 WCF, 300gr Softs waiting for me in the Land Down Under]

I always like to error on the side of penetration on the bigger animals, but now I am thinking maybe half Softs and half Solids??? shocker


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Softs these days really aren't in the same league as the softs of years gone by. Barnes TSX, Swift A-Frames, Woodleigh etc are totally reliable on buffalo size critters.

Cheers,
Mark.
 
Posts: 557 | Location: Victoria, Australia | Registered: 13 February 2007Reply With Quote
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Good softs seem to always make it to the hide on the far side. The theory that the second shot will be on a outgoer has some merit, but I have had even more that were quartering away and even broadside. Even on a straightaway, I'm trying to target the spine or break a hip which will put an end to any escape just as quickly as an end to end shot with a solid.

The only solids I've used were the flat nosed Barnes, which may or may not be a factor. typically follow up shots taken with those had an uncanny similarity to an insect bite.

Another issue when herd shooting is a solid wounding the buff behind the first one. that's an expensive wreck in Africa, while probably not as bad in Oz on a cull. I'm more than a little concerned about pass throughs with the Safari Raptors as well, but will have the Aframes to fall back on.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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We are NOT down on solids, as they have their place. However, experience has shown that a good quality expanding bullet like the A Frame and TSX provides the necessary penetration on Aussie buff yet exerting sufficient hydrostatic shock to do the internal damage desired. We recovered some bullets under the skin on the far side of the buff so penetration was at least 99% or more.

Always listen to the PH, and they recommend a bullet like the TSX. In a cull hunt, the objective is to put down the animal in the most effective time and way possible. Most likely, you will not have the luxury of a long track in the bush and swamp. Plus, I do not enjoy the excessive pucker factor of looking for a wounded bull in the thick brush or tall grass.

Geoff


Shooter
 
Posts: 618 | Location: Mossyrock, WA | Registered: 25 April 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogleg:
It's getting close to what has turned into my annual culling visit Down-under. Big Grin This year its actually two hunts, one with Matt Graham and the other with Barry Seabrook.

I try to work in an informal bullet or caliber test at the same time, mostly out of curiosity. Once it was to win an argument. The volume of animals that can be taken really lends itself to this sort of thing, but my methods aren't very scientific.

This year on the feral hunt with Matt I'll mostly just be shooting up 30-06 ammo that I've stock-piled so I have a pretty good idea how that will turn out. That's 165 gr Hornady Interlocks, 168 grain TSXs and 180 grain Woodlieghs with I can't remember how many Factory Norma Oryxs for variety. Never got to try the Normas last year.

The buffalo portion is a little different. On a previous buffalo hunt that was part trophy and part cull we compared the .375 H&H against the .458 Win with A-Frames in both. 16 buff gave their impressions. This time it will be mostly just seeing if I can really tell the difference between 450 grain A-Frames at 2200 fps and the same bullets at 2350 fps. I think I can, but it takes quite a few animals to be sure. The other part is to compare my current favorite 450 grain A-Frames against the 420 grain CEB Safari Raptors and the matching 450 grain solids. There might be a little room in there to revisit the old mag-full of solids versus all soft debate.

A little side-show is to try some 350 grain .458 TSXs as a lighter recoiling option. I keep hearing people say that they wouldn't hesitate to use them, but they get real quiet when asked if they have done it. For what its worth, a Barnes tech seemed to be confident enough but also stopped short of saying that lots of guys were doing it.

Sideshow #2 is to see whether 380 grain Rhinos can make up for their lack of caliber with weight and wide opening.

Any thoughts or predictions on how things will turn out?


as you know from another place im waiting for your report and conclusions ...

Phil
 
Posts: 1721 | Location: Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada. | Registered: 21 May 2006Reply With Quote
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A quick report here is almost certain, the other place less likely. Some things are crowd dependant.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Well????

You still gone?

Ski+3
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Kalispell, MT | Registered: 01 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Leave on the 5th of August.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Heading to OZ myself on Aug 7th for a cull hunt with Barry and GunsmokeAdventures.
Bringing my Gibbs 450NE and a Win mod 70 that I re-chamber to a 458 Lott.
Barry has set up a re-loading bench at camp as the 5kg weight limit on ammo will leave one a bit short on a cull hunt. All one needs to bring is brass and bullets and Barry can provide primers and powder. Re-loading in OZ limits you to ADI powders so I needed to work up loads with our Hogdons powders for the trip.
After some head scratching I decided on 450gr TSXs and 450gr CEB Raptors for the Lott and 450gr CEB Raptors for my Gibbs dbl. In my Gibbs the 450gr Raptors have regulated well at 2180fps with H4831sc. For the Lott I settled on H4895 pushing both the TSXs and the CEB Raptors just short of 2200fps. My thoughts for the Lott was to reduce the velocity. To ease the pounding taken when the opportunity is there for more than 20 shots a day five days in a row with a big bore rifle.
The 450gr TSXs and the 450gr Raptors shoot pretty much to the same hole in the Lott The 450 Raptors I had to seat a few thou shorter as the Cannaluer was cut more for a Double than the Lott. I am toying with bringing some 420 Raptors if I can get them to shoot to the same POI but there is some simplicity in bringing the same bullet for both the Double and the Lott.
 
Posts: 1607 | Location: Vermont | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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It will be interesting to compare notes after the hunts. Won't be much longer now. Big Grin
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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DL
I used the 06 on scrub bulls and shot a couple of real big ones ....bigger then your water buff , and let me assure you I would not hesitate to use the 06 on scrub bulls again or for that matter on water buffalo
I used the 200 tsx @2650
now I would probably use the 200 ttsx because of the larger hollow point under the blue tip
 
Posts: 1475 | Location: AUSTRALIA | Registered: 07 August 2001Reply With Quote
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My 17 year old son shot a buffalo last year with a 30-06. I shot one with .300 RUM, and popped a nice scrub bull with the same rifle. Did it work? Yep. Will I do it again? Possibly not. You see, the needs of a travelling hunter are a bit different than the hunter who is local. A local can wait for a perfect shot presentation, and if he did screw up there's always next week, or next year. Chances are excellent that a bad shot and lost hunt isn't going to cost him the same as a really nice used 4 X 4.

For fun, here's a picture of the scrub bull I got last year. It was a target of opportunity while doing something else. That changes things from "Whats my best plan" to "I can do this".



The buff on the same trip seemed every bit as big as the scrub bull and I brained it. Again, I was already there, the opportunity came up and I cashed in on it. That's quite a bit different than paying out tens of thousands of dollars and travelling half way around the world looking for a headshot on a buffalo. That's a lower percentage plan, and not one that I'd make on purpose. Larger calibers are in the theme of putting whatever chances you can in your favor. Heres the buff.

 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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I leave tomorrow for a solid 2 weeks of shooting up Australia. Wish me luck. dancing
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Good luck and have lots of fun!
Leave a few for seed you might want to go back next year.
Let's hear about it from both of you when you get back.

I'd like to see pics of some of those bullets you guys use on these buffs n bulls, please take a few just for me, ok?
George


"Gun Control is NOT about Guns'
"It's about Control!!"
Join the NRA today!"

LM: NRA, DAV,

George L. Dwight
 
Posts: 5935 | Location: Pueblo, CO | Registered: 31 January 2006Reply With Quote
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These are .458 and .375 A-Frames I sliced out of buffalo in Matt's Gan Gan camp a few years ago. I have gotten some more speed out of the .458 since then and that opens them just a bit more and makes the body bulge.

Since they are so predictable, they are what the others will be compared to. I'm most interested to see what difference if any there is on how fast buffalo hit the dirt; more so than what the bullets look, measure or weigh after the fact. I figure that if I have my mind made up about what they are "supposed" to look like then I may as well tear a ad out of a magazine and scan that.

 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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There's sure nothing wrong with the way those turned out. Only difference is the range of the shots I'll bet, and/or may whether they hit bone or not.

Thanks much for the picture. Good luck on this hunt. Assume you're still in the air right now yet.

Off the trail just a bit. Got a note from Kevin Weaver last night about the .358U/M he's building for me. "taking longer than planned, hope to have it finished by end of Aug".

Talked to the shoulder doc today: "want to wait a month or six weeks to see how this Staph infection works out before replacing the other shoulder" (my shooting shoulder) Would be nice to fire the rifle some before that's done so I'll know what to expect from the recoil. Might have time now IF Kevin gets it done as planned. Had promised to get it out in July. With the health problems I reckon there's not much rush as I've still got a back surgery pending besides the shoulder. Had hoped to have had them both done by now and had most of a year to heal things up before making the trip over to OZ next year.

Ain't life fun?
George


"Gun Control is NOT about Guns'
"It's about Control!!"
Join the NRA today!"

LM: NRA, DAV,

George L. Dwight
 
Posts: 5935 | Location: Pueblo, CO | Registered: 31 January 2006Reply With Quote
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Dogleg ; how did the 350 gr TSX work?


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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I'm at Darwin airport waiting to board to go home.

A quick and dirty summary of the buffalo cull hunt is 111 buffalo on the hunt for me, with both cows and bulls being taken. The other two hunters in camp took another hundred plus between the two of them but that's their story to tell.

I didn't get to try everything that I hoped to, and ended up shooting all my buffalo with 420 CEBs, 450 A-Frames and the 350 grain TSXs. As much as I'd like to say something stood out as vastly superior to the rest, here just weren't any huge differences between any of them. All would make it to the hide on the far side on broad side shots and very few exited.

The A-Frames with my hot-rodded loads did seem to have more noticeable impact reaction and louder hits. They did everything I expect of them.

The CEBs killed very well, but not any better than the others. I did notice that when the range got longer, like out to 200 or so the performance did go down. Another thing is that bush seems to eat them alive, and many animals were hit with petals that sheared before the bullet got there.

The light little 350 grain TSXs at 2650 fps were a real treat. They killed just as well as the others at both long and short ranges and recoiled considerably less than the others. With the volume of fire experienced that recoil reduction was more than appreciated. I soon just changed over to the TSXs and used them until they were gone.

If and when I do this hunt again I'll be taking the 350 TSXs. That wasn't exactly how I expected things to turn out, but I saw what I saw.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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While I'm at it, the results of the donkey /horse 30-06 shoot had the 180 Woodleigh giving a very good showing as compared to the 168 grain TSX and Hornady interlock. Last year I had to say the results were inconclusive, but that was probably due to just not having a big enough sample. When the numbers increase it was quite obvious that Australia's own Woodleigh was clearly leading for fast take-downs.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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great hunt

when you get your hat and your ass together in one place

tell us all about it

hard to wait


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Mike:
That sounds like a great shoot. Glad you got to partake again. I'd like to hear how many of what species and where you hit 'em, or tried to.
How many head shots and what range to.

Frank:
Didn't you go over this year too? OR not yet?
I'm finally looking at Sept 30th for back surgery. This time he's going to fuse the bottom three lumbar. Not a fix of the problem but, locking up the bones. Outfit in Dallas won't take my insurance and I can't come up with all the $15,000 right now. To have it done their way: Run a laser and camera up the hole in the tip of tailbone to zap the bulges. Sure would like to do that as I fully believe that way it'll fix the problem and with only a half inch incision too. About an hour, where fusion will take five hours and delay the other shoulder for six months. That'll put it into next year!

Supposed to get the 358u/m this week.
Take care,
George


"Gun Control is NOT about Guns'
"It's about Control!!"
Join the NRA today!"

LM: NRA, DAV,

George L. Dwight
 
Posts: 5935 | Location: Pueblo, CO | Registered: 31 January 2006Reply With Quote
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I should add that the feral portion with Hunt Australia was a real success, with 253 assorted undesirables getting tipped over. A high shoulder shot with a 180 Woodleigh really clobbers things at the ranges I was shooting. 300 is a long shot in that locale. Heart/lung shots with TSXs tended have a bit of a delayed reaction, and not the real thumping hit of the lead bullet. That's not to say they didn't work, its just that gaining the ability to shoot through things lengthwise requires giving up something on the sideways shots. Nothing new there, you pays yer money and makes your choice. Deep hole or a wide one.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Mike:
253 killed, WOW, did you burn the barrel out too? That's a LOT of shooting fella!
Do it all in a week like the last trip? Be nice to see the pics but, understand the situation if it's the same deal as last time.
Share 'em on pm as before. They can't be seen by anyone else there.

Get rested up and catch us up soon. Thanks for the info too.
George


"Gun Control is NOT about Guns'
"It's about Control!!"
Join the NRA today!"

LM: NRA, DAV,

George L. Dwight
 
Posts: 5935 | Location: Pueblo, CO | Registered: 31 January 2006Reply With Quote
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Both hunts were 7 days. The normal seems to be 5 days and two travel days but both Matt and Barry were able to work with me and stretch things out a bit. It's a long ways to go for 5 hunting days.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Sounds like Leith showed you a great time. tu2

Cheers,
Mark.
 
Posts: 557 | Location: Victoria, Australia | Registered: 13 February 2007Reply With Quote
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Leith is a great guy. I briefly met him a couple years ago so had a fair idea what to expect. Quite a cook too. Shaun was my guide, I had him last year. He's a young up and comer with boundless enthusiasm.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Sounds like a great trip, out of curiosity how much was the bill all in from SK?
 
Posts: 475 | Location: Moncton, New Brunswick | Registered: 30 August 2003Reply With Quote
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With flights right about $24000 for the two hunts, then about 5,000 for incidentals and then add ammo. Plan for at least 20 boxes for the little gun, and about the same for your favorite big one. Ammo costs in Oz are high, I flew in my bullets and brass for the .458 and shot up 30-06 ammo remaining from previous hunts. That was loaded for me by a generous AR member.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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a friends 458 win mag mix


71 grains of H4198, 350 TSX, 215 primer. That wasn't even maximum in my rifle,(or most manuals) but shot to the same POI as several other bullets that I was "testing". Velocity is 2650 in my 24" barrel.

H4198 is ADI 2207. That's important when you load at that end.



so: I need to get 1000 federal 215 primers stocked up with powder in camp

need to--- will bring 500 + bullets and 250 + cases and 100 loaded rounds in travel bags

this will feed the beast

500 brass would be more prudent however

may take 10 days to spend this resource

ha !!


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
may take 10 days to spend this resource

ha !!


And if you don't shoot it all, then you have to go back. What a disaster. Big Grin
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Or you could take all 1000 of them, and leave the leftovers for me.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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So, when you two going back?

Finally, gunsmith called yesterday. "Come up Sunday n shoot this thing and you can take it home with you". That's Sun Sept. 20th. IF you can, decifer this: IMO, it's ABFT!
George


"Gun Control is NOT about Guns'
"It's about Control!!"
Join the NRA today!"

LM: NRA, DAV,

George L. Dwight
 
Posts: 5935 | Location: Pueblo, CO | Registered: 31 January 2006Reply With Quote
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The issue for me is whether the cull will take place next year. Hopefully a decision will be made soon. I was able to reserve my dates for the beginning of August IF the hunt takes place.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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