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Thanks model7LSS!!

I learned a few things today. Appreciate the information.

Ski+3
Whitefish, MT
 
Posts: 779 | Location: Kalispell, MT | Registered: 01 January 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SkiBumplus3:
Thanks model7LSS!!

I learned a few things today. Appreciate the information.

Ski+3
Whitefish, MT


You're very welcome. Most people don't know that veterinarians' number one goal is public health, especially in regards to food safety and protection of our food supply. There are so many lies and half truths regarding agriculture in general, but especially in regards to our food. Truth is, modern technology is responsible for us producing more food using less resources and ensuring our food supply is safer than it was 50 years ago.


Auburn University BS '09, DVM '17
 
Posts: 526 | Location: Selma, AL | Registered: 16 January 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Model7LSS:

I wonder if most people understand that common practice in far too many veterinary practices is to issue antibiotics to clients and perhaps provide written instructions for use and perhaps not? I wonder if people understand that antibiotics are not only common at low levels, but that those self same low levels are adequate to produce an allergic reaction in people when they are dosed with anantibiotic they have been sensitized to?

Remember the anthrax scare after 9/11? Up and down the east coast people were given Ciprofloxacin like pez until large numbers of them had allergic reactions and then the protocol for potential anthrax exposure was changes to Doxycycline as the preferred antibiotic. Many, perhaps most of those people had never been prescribed or had taken cipro before. Where did it come from? You pretty well need to ingest an antibiotic to sensitize your immune system to it. They were sensitized by the food they ate. Antibiotics as a feed supplement are not only used, but they are used quite commonly and there are probably millions of people already sensitized that have no idea they will have a reaction, and perhaps one severe enough to require medical intervention if they take a prescribed antibiotic.

I have had such a reaction. My wife has had such a reaction. I know at least two other people who have had such a reaction. I got lucky and realized my wife was going into anaphylaxis, rushed her to the emergency room at large hospital a mile and a half away. She was so deep in shock I was pressed into squeezing an IV bag while they did a cut down to get a second line in. A day in he ICU and a day on the ward and she came home. Clavamox. A common veterinary antibiotic. She'd never had it before in her life. Here in Minnesota like most of the country Private practice DVMs have no access to control what antibiotics go into mass produced food animals like chickens/turkeys/hogs/beef. By the way, BST is a hormone commonly injected into dairy cattle by the dairy operator.

Lastly, e coli O157-H7 is unheard of practically from wild animals. By and large it is a product of feed lot beef

Lastly
 
Posts: 621 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 25 January 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The problem is that so much of what you see as fact, is simply not true.

Clavamox is amoxicillin with clavulanic acid as a beta lactamase inhibitor. Yes, Clavamox is the trade name of the drug labeled for veterinary use. It is not used in large animal medicine, as the dose would be insanely huge and it's not formulated for such. In humans it is called Augmentin. Probably the most prescribed and dispensed antibiotic in human medicine. I am actually allergic to it. Found out after I took it when I was 5. Whoever told you the part about sensitizing people with antibiotics and them having a reaction later fed you a load of crap. That's not how the immune system works.

No one is disputing there are medicated feeds. Meat and dairy products are inspected for antibiotic residues. If they turn up positive, that carcass or milk is disposed of (read this as "the farmer or producer doesn't get paid") It does not enter the food chain. So as a producer do you justify spending untold amounts of money on medicated feed just to send them down the line and not get paid for it? Doesn't sound like a good business model. And don't say people don't really test. Yes, they do.

Absolutely veterinarians have a say in what antibiotics and medicines are used in animals. They are the ones who prescribe them. Even if they work for a corporate farm, they still have to abide by laws and uphold their status with the state licensing board and USDA.

Do you know what the H7-O157 means in regards to E. coli? There is a reason it is identified in relation to beef, but I will let you do some research into the subject.


Auburn University BS '09, DVM '17
 
Posts: 526 | Location: Selma, AL | Registered: 16 January 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Bluntly, I have spent more time in more practices than you are likely to have.

I have watched farmers walk into practices in both Minnesota and Wisconsin and purchase antibiotics without even a hint of Dr./Patient relationship. More times than I can count. It was and may still be common for antibiotics to be available in a refrigerator in the lobby.

Poultry farms are a contract relationship with the producer. They buy the chicks, buy the feed and turn the product over after a few weeks. Most never see a DVM.

The designation identifies the specific e coli bacterium by somatic and h antigens. The bacterium itself is a gram negative rod. Most farmers, like most people don't have a clue about discriminating bacteria from viruses. Most meat inspectors do a good enough job of inspecting meat that we wind up recalling millions of pounds of meat annually, and that quantity is increasing rather than decreasing along with the numbers of recalls.

Any more questions?
 
Posts: 621 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 25 January 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry, I forgot the most important part of what you had to say...

Do people develop allergic reaction to amoxicillin or any other penicillin for that matter?.

Obviously, when that drug is prescribed for humans in isn't labeled as clavamox, it's labeled as augmentin (to head off your other question)
 
Posts: 621 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 25 January 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So you're saying just because you have walked into a veterinary practice for say 30 years, you know more than a veterinarian. OK. I don't know why I am shocked at this, as I see it everyday in practice.

That may have been common place 20 years ago, but its not now. Regardless, clavamox was not one of those drugs, and is not why your wife was ill. Absolutely people have allergic reactions, but it's not due to recurrent small doses of the drug.

One of the therapies involved in allergies is a process called hypo-sensitization. It involves introducing small particles of the allergen in order to train the immune system into no longer recognizing it as a problem, and mounting a reaction. So the theory that recurrent small ingestion of an antibiotic rendered you allergic doesn't hold much weight. I had never had amoxicillin before, then I took it and had a reaction. It happens. Don't take it anymore.

USDA regulations stipulate that a DVM has to prescribe a medicated feed. You're actually correct that most birds do not see a vet. Typically, birds are submitted for necropsy when a problem is suspected, and flock (or herd) decisions made based on results from post-mortem inspection and testing.

That was the google search answer I expected. The serotype in question is a naturally occurring bacteria in the GI tract of cattle. These bacteria can contaminate meat during the slaughter process. Ever wonder why you have to cook hamburger completely, but that rare steak is ok? It's because these bacteria are going to be on the surface of the meat when it's cut(due to contamination with infected fomites) . It's not technically the bacteria that makes you ill, it's the Shiga toxins. Fortunately, these toxin are rendered inactive in the heat process. When you grind hamburger, you mix these bacteria (and toxins) throughout the meat. When the meat isn't cooked to temperature, the toxins are still active, causing illness. In 1993 there was a pretty bad epidemic of illness due to undercooked hamburger meat infected with the bacteria. This wasn't due to improper farming or animal husbandry, it was due to improper food handling and preparation. Also not due to antibiotic resistance, use in animals, etc. The reason plants are recalled with contamination is due to improper handling of manure in regards to water supply.



One of the biggest problems in the world today, is that everyone is so damned determined to be right, that they lose sight of the facts, and are guided only by what supports their belief.


With that, I am done on this topic. I typically don't engage in these things, but when the industry and profession that I spent the majority of my adult life studying is assaulted with lies and halftruths, by people who know not of what they speak, I take exception.

One of these days maybe I will become wise enough (or jaded), that I will no longer try.


Auburn University BS '09, DVM '17
 
Posts: 526 | Location: Selma, AL | Registered: 16 January 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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