I hae a 31 inch 40 cal octagon Badger barrel in the classifieds which would go great on a roller. It is one in 16 twist, and .408 groove. I have both heavy and light versions.

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
Hi RIP.

To answer your questions about grove diameter and twist, grove diameters for .40-caliber black powder cartridge rifle generally run .409 or .410, but there is no reason you could not go .408 if you used an appropriately sized bullet. I know quite a few shooters who have played with the longer/larger capacity .40 black powder cases with 1:14 or 1:12 twist barrels and 440-grain bullets, or in .40-65 with heavy bore-rider bullets seated way out to gain case capacity for powder.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I have not used twists faster than one in 16 as I thought they might be a bit aggressive for alloy bullets. But I guess they will work.
Oh, why not a .408 barrel? Because Douglas does not make them.

Thanks, dpcd and boomer.
The .408"-grooved 1:13" twist is a common one: McGowen, Lilja, etc., for the .408 Chey-Tac, etc.
Pedersoli uses .400-bore/.408-groove, 1:16" twist on all their .40-65 Winchester rifles.
A No. 4 Sporter would be my choice., .408"-grooved, 1:13" twist, with +400-grain bullets.

I know of no factory rifle made for BPCR shooting that has a faster than one in 16; the Chey Tac, etc, are for very long, solid copper, jacketed bullets. and need the faster twist There is no reason for such a fast twist in a blackpowder cartridge rifle. I have a Pedersoli Sharps, and a Shiloh Sharps 40 cals. I have several Badger barrels in 40 cal; they are one in 16, and are 408.
I would not deviate from what Garbe, Venturino, and others have proven for Black Powder Cartridge shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I know of no factory rifle made for BPCR shooting that has a faster than one in 16; the Chey Tac, etc, are for very long, solid copper, jacketed bullets. and need the faster twist There is no reason for such a fast twist in a blackpowder cartridge rifle. I have a Pedersoli Sharps, and a Shiloh Sharps 40 cals. I have several Badger barrels in 40 cal; they are one in 16, and are 408.
I would not deviate from what Garbe, Venturino, and others have proven for Black Powder Cartridge shooting.

I was thinking that a subsonic .40-65 "Whispering-Winchester" carbine might work well with the .408-cal/1:13" twist and +400-grainers.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I hae a 31 inch 40 cal octagon Badger barrel in the classifieds which would go great on a roller. It is one in 16 twist, and .408 groove. I have both heavy and light versions.

I might be interested in a lighter barrel than this (from your ad in "classified"):

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Forty caliber, one in 16 twist; CM, 1.1 inch tapering down to one inch; 31 inches long. These are no longer made.
$300 shipped.

I already have a heavy-barreled .40-65 Win and need a barrel considerably lighter than the one described in the ad.

I hope that is the heavy version shown above.
Do you still have a "light" barrel for sale?
I would actually prefer a round barrel over octagonal.
The upper handguard wood on my jungle-carbine Rolling Block will cover most of the barrel, wasting all that octagonal beauty.

Yes, I do have a light .40 barrel; taper is one inch, down to .9 muzzle. Badger. The pic above is the heavy one.

Too heavy to float my carbine.

They were made for BPCR single shots. what action are you using? I have some round ones that are much lighter.

Dunno about the military Remingtons being unsafe for smokeless powder. I've got an original military in 8mm Lebel, and IIRC Remington sold a pile(~15,000) of these to the Frenchies as second unit/Colonial Troops rifles in the Big War(WWI)

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
They were made for BPCR single shots. what action are you using? I have some round ones that are much lighter.

The action to be used? Remington No. 1 rolling block, of course! I must have confused the issue with ".40-65 Whispering Winchester" comment?

And now I have abandoned that idea altogether.
The antique Winchester mould will make some plinkers for something else.


How about a ".50-70 Whispering Government" carbine? Got any light, round barrels for the .50-70 Gov?
That will start the twist thing to spinning all over again.

I am thinking of eliminating all the variable bore diameter and slow-twist issues of the antiques and replicas by using a 50 BMG type twist and bore.
Standardized!
1:15" Twist, .510" groove.

That way I ought to be able to use my 777-grain cast bullets, gas-checked and sized to .511, at subsonic velocity from a .50-70 Gov cartridge case.
Maybe 777 grains at 777 fps?
Maybe even plink with 50 BMG ball if they don't fly sideways at such low velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by 0007:
Dunno about the military Remingtons being unsafe for smokeless powder. I've got an original military in 8mm Lebel, and IIRC Remington sold a pile(~15,000) of these to the Frenchies as second unit/Colonial Troops rifles in the Big War(WWI)

Those would be the post 1897 steel ones, eh?
Hell for stout I reckon.
Mine might be forged iron but still pretty stout, especially with a modern 50 BMG barrel "stub" screwed into it for use as a "50-70 Government Whisperer."

You're right, my bad. In my defense I had a heck of a time finding anything about the various pre-WWI smokeless rolling blocks.

Those Badgers are tremendous shooters. It was a black day for the BPCR community when Badger changed business plans.
Tom, regarding the faster twist .40 barrels, the late Dan Theodore was an inveterate experimenter with his incredibly efficient heavy-for-caliber "money bullet" designs fired in faster-than-traditional twists in .40 and .38.
Sadly, Dan died in a house fire a year or two back.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/De...PROD=160181&CAT=4156

Though I have made some dummies for the "50-70 US WHISPER" and am considering a simple 50-70 Gov with an extended throat, I am still undecided ...



... and starting to collect parts from the butt forward.
Here is a piece of walnut from Dixie Gun Works, still shrinkwrapped in clear plastic, nice grain for strength,
so I guess the buttplate casting and extractor are next:

Will be watching this thread, RIP. Love a rolling block project!
Just to stir the pot, you might even consider chambering that short-lived 19th-century rarity, the .50 2-inch.

Thanks, Bill,
Like you, I have decided it has to be a 50-70 Gov.
I have done some googling and looking through the books of my immense home library.

JDJ of SSK did the "50-70-750" decades ago, based on the original 50-70 Gov case.
He chambered TC Contenders for them at first, switched to the 1-pound-heavier TC Encore when it arrived so as to stop blowing up Contenders.
Shooting 750-grain Hornady A-Max and heavier bullets Whisper-style (slow) required very fast twists.
Ditto his .510 Whisper and 50 Whisper on Lapua and Wby cases.
I have seen anywhere from 1:10" to 1:6" suggested here and there.

I also surmise that the old 1:42" twist and .515" to .518"-grooved barrels of the antiques must use bullets of less than one inch length.
So 450-grains in 30:1 Pb/Sn is about the only ticket.
And those ought to be sized to .001" smaller than groove and allowed to "bump up" to groove size.
And BP works best for doing this.
A different approach with cast bullets is needed if using smokeless powder groove size to 1 or 2 thou bigger if using a BP substitute.

.50-45-400 Cadet Cartridge (45g BP/400-gr Bullet) 1.275"-long case Martin-primed, or 1.332"-long case Benet cup primed, funky.
Used in Remington RB Navy Cadet rifle of 1867.

.50-55-430 Carbine/Cadet Cartridge, used full length 1.750" case with lighter powder and bullet in various trapdoor and rolling block
cadet rifles and service carbines.

I have not come across the 50-cal 2" case yet, so please do tell if you have any info on that.

Twisting and turning further on twist:

Dixie/Pedersoli-made 50-90-2.5" Sharps 1874 has 1:26" twist, .504" bore and .512" Groove.
Ought to handle bullets up to about 600 grains and bullet length little more than 1.250".

Cimarron/Chiappa/Armisport-made McNelly Carbine is also .512"-grooved but has a fast twist of 1:18"
and still shoots the stubby 450-grainers well with no apparent leading problems.

The classic 500 Nitro Express 3" is CIP spec-ed with a barrel twist rate of 1:15" (1:381.0mm), meant for .510-cal/570-grain jacketed.

I am only proposing to use a .510"-grooved, 1:15"-twist barrel and see if I can use that with the standard 50-70 Gov reamer that Dave Kiff makes at PTG.

It is spec-ed for .510"-grooved barrel.
The throat is .512" diameter (parallel-sided free-bore diameter!) that runs for only 0.010" length before funneling down with a 2*-30' leade angle.

I have access to throating reamers used in the past on .510/460Wby-500A2 projects.
Ought to be usable here if throat needs to be extended.

Now I must decide if I really want to make a short, light carbine, or do I want a longer-barreled, medium weight hunter/sporter?
Or do I want to go whole hog and try to make a long and heavy target rifle out of the 50-70 Gov?
Might be good for silhouettes to 600 yards,
if not 1000 yard precision shooting.