Sure does, sharpsguy.
Amazing what I don't know about BPCRs.
Thanks.

You saved me Sharpsguy, , as the day you don't learn something is the day you should pack it in !

Could you please comment on using paper patched bullets ?

quote:

Smokeless does not cause the bullet to obturate, or bump up as does black powder.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
[QUOTE]Smokeless does not cause the bullet to obturate, or bump up as does black powder.

Let the battles begin!

I think even jacketed and monometal copper bullets exposed to smokeless powders do eventually obturate to some degree after getting started down the barrel, under tens of thousands of psi pressure.

Maybe sharpsguy means the rapid start of the "explosive" BP makes the cast lead bullet obturate sooner, with attendant benefits,
than with the more gradual acceleration of the "non-explosive" propellant smokeless powder?

Doubless, I should have stated that somewhat differently. Both smokeless and black cause bullet upset, but the upset with black is more pronounced and sudden due to its burn rate. In his classic "The Bullet's Flight", published in 1942, Dr. Franklin W. Mann did an exhaustive study of the factors affecting accuracy. One of the areas of study was bullet upset, or obturation. Through extensive testing, he determined that all bullet upset occured in the first ten inches of barrel length, and by eleven inches of bullet travel, upset ceased to occur.

Black powder does not have a progressive burn rate. Smokeless does. Black powder explodes and imparts its energy immediately, well within the first ten inches of bullet travel. Smokeless, on the other hand, continues to build pressure well down the barrel beyond the eleven inch obturation limit and does not provide as much immediate expansion to the bullet as does black powder. If you care to check this out, you can find it on pages 81 and 82 of Dr. Mann's book.

Black powder works differently and is a different breed of cat from smokeless. By the same token, BPCR rifles work differently than highpower. Few highpower shooters make a successful transition to the world of BPCR Silhouette, and most give up before they get a handle on what is required in the BPCR game. Hey, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

RIP caught exactly what my meaning was in the original post.

Black powder in a smaller bore naval use, they used it in the 26-inch bore too, eh?
Could hurl a Volkswagen over 20 miles:

I need one of those things. I know, I know...a 45-70 is just as good :-)

One way to see if smokeless really does obturate a bullet (other than a soft cast bullet) is to shoot bullets smaller than groove depth. I, and others I know, have not measured any bullet enlargement in this case in recovered bullets so I will remain dubious that it happens at BPE velocities.

On the other hand, BP will bump up a soft cast bullet from bore to groove diameter but IMO, it largely depends on the rifling type and the Metford, Henry and Whitworth patterns allow this to happen more easily than rifling with square cuts. Must be the inability of the lead to flow into the tighter recesses of sharp grooves.
Anyway, I do use both black and smokeless in my BPE rifles and enjoy both. Using smokeless, equivalent velocities can be achieved with lower pressures so why not use it?
A good friend's son just took a nice bull elephant with his Alex Henry .500 BPE double using H4198 and an undersized mono bullet. 20yds and fell over dead. The bullet went through a rib, the heart, and ended up in the offside leg. Now, the velocity was the same as if he had used black but the powder bullet combination enabled him to use a tougher bullet with lower pressures in his damascus tubes. I think he used backer rod for dead space filler.
This is all great stuff, but my dream is to take my 461 Gibbs to Africa and take a nice Cape Buffalo with a paper patched bullet and real black powder just like F.C. Selous did for so many years!

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

... Anyway, I do use both black and smokeless in my BPE rifles and enjoy both. Using smokeless, equivalent velocities can be achieved with lower pressures so why not use it?

Beware the dark side!

... This is all great stuff, but my dream is to take my 461 Gibbs to Africa and take a nice Cape Buffalo with a paper patched bullet and real black powder just like F.C. Selous did for so many years!

In the end, The Force always prevails.
Where there is smokeless fire, eventually there is BP smoke.

RIP.

I have loaded a lot of BPCR .38-55 loads. The following is my technique for grease-groove bullets.

The first thing to determine is bore size for your rifle. I have seen them range from .375 to .379, and I suspect that there are a lot of rifles outside of that range. Next is to determine the twist. Again, the ones I have messed with ran from 1:24 to 1:16. These two factors will determine the bullet to use. I prefer a bore-size bullet, unsized, and lubed with SPG. For the slower twist barrels, I use a 250-grain Lyman Snover-style bullet, while for faster I use a 270 or 300-grain. My suggestion is to buy a box of 50-each 250 and 270-grain, or 270, and 300-grain bullets and see what your rifle will stabilize at the longest range you anticipate shooting.

I only neck size my brass, and size the inside of the neck to 0.001-inch under bullet diameter. You will generally find that your fired brass will have a slightly greater powder capacity than virgin brass, so after initial firing, you should evaluate whether you can slightly up you powder charge.

I use Goex Express 2F or Swiss 1-1/2F powder and use a 24-inch drop tube to charge cases. I compress the Goex by about 0.5 inches or the Swiss by about 0.1 inches. I use a 0.030-inch or 0.060-inch Walters wad over the powder, and compress using a separate powder compression die. Try both thicknesses to see which wad gives better accracy. If it is all the same, I use the thinner wad.

I determine the actual powder charge based on bullet seating depth and wad thickness. I seat my bullet to where it is touching the lands, or in the case of a bore-riding bullet, to where the first bore-sized driving band is touching the lands. From there, I measure how much of the bullet extends down into the neck of the case. My powder charge will be enough to fill the case to the base of the bullet, plus enough to get the desired compression, also allowing for the thickness of the wad. After compressing the powder charge, I use a bullet seater shaped for the nose of the bullet I use. I want to just feel the base of the bullet bump the wad and powder charge so that there is zero space between the bullet base and wad. I use a taper crimp for my single-shot rifle loads, and I use a hard roll crimp for lever actions (or in the Trapdoor if I am loading larger caliber loads), and crimp in a separate step from bullet seating. Using these techniques, the black powder loads I have developed for .38-55 shoot as well as smokeless loads in the same rifle with the same bullet.

I use these same general techniques for loading grease-grove bullets in BPCR loads for .38-55, .40-65, .45-70. and .50-90, with only minor variations for different rifles.

loud-n-boomer,

Thanks Ol'Timer!
The detailed recipe with instructions is much appreciated, more than my Momma's cornbread recipe.
"Goex Express 2F or Swiss 1-1/2F powder" is on the shopping list, as all I have is 3F and 4F for my flintlocks.
Slugging my bores meantime: Will do.

Sharpsguy:
You seem to be the eyes of knowledge here on this new but much needed forum. I appreciate what you write as I learn from it.
The topic now is leading in a large caliber:8- and 4-bore double (and single) rifles. I keep my shooting simple and case from wheel weights (which I get at no cost from tire shops) I use FFg GOEX as it is close to achieving the original velocity of the old black powder rounds. But I DO get lead in the bores which kills accuracy after a few shots. On conical bullets I apply Bore Butter or another lube with my fingers into the groove(s). On a ball I wrap the equator in the thin nylon thread tape plumbers use. Both work but to a limited degree. Then I use some copper dish scrubbers fit over an oversize mop (to make the fit tight) and remove the lead that way.
I also get severe leading when shooting nitro doubles with cast bullets--gas check or no--in calibers such as .450-400, .450 no2, .500, .600. I do a lot of plinking with 900-grain lead bullets in the .600. It is a good way to break into the recoil as well as save a bit of money on the cost of the Woodleigh bullets.
Any input will be read with much appreciation.
Cal

I've been shooting these things since the early 80's, just before they really started to become popular. I expect those others who started about the same time had the same or similar parallel learning curve that was published by the likes of Mike Venturino, Steve Garbe, Paul Matthews and Ron Long. At any rate my experience varies but little from what sharpsguy has posted. In reference to the leading I do not recall ever having leading from my black powder loads, in any of several rifles I shoot black in. Those are not restricted to just the Sharps and Ballard I own, I shoot black and cast in 4-5 pre-1900 German firearms also. The methods I use, certainly no secret, work as well in one as the other. My alloy is pretty soft by normal, smokeless standards as I expect is sharpsguy's. I shoot 25-1 in all my BPC rifles. Lube has long been SPG or a home concocted similar soft lube.

My only......yes, I'll call it a failure....has been with an E. M. Reilley double rifle in 500 BPE. I have yet to work up a suitable load using BP. I blame it on the Henry rifling and evidently my ignorance of how to utilize it. On the other hand my German double rifle and a couple combination guns shoot just fine with either straight black or lightly duplexed loads.

Good fun, this shooting of BP in vintage American and German rifles.