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Re: Someone explain Steel to me
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Big Country
Take a look at the following link. It helped me in choosing which steel to use in the knives I've made.
Knife Steel Info

If you want more info take a look at Knifeforums.com

Happy reading!
 
Posts: 42 | Location: Wild and Wonderful New Mexico | Registered: 12 December 2002Reply With Quote
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http://ex_knife.tripod.com/excalibursknifeezine/id9.html


There is no question that a knife with premium steel should be expected to perform well. However; there is more to knife performance than the steel. The blade profile is also important. (See my page on Blade Geometry).

But perhaps most important is the heat treatment. A good heat treatment on a less than stellar steel will often result in a blade that outperforms a premium steel with a bad heat treatment. Bad heat treatment can cause a stainless steel to lose some of its stainless properties, or cause a tough steel to become brittle, etc.

Unfortunately, of the three most important properties (blade profile, steel type, heat treatment), heat treatment is the one that is impossible to assess by eye. As a result, excessive attention is sometimes paid to the other two.

Remember also to keep your particular application in mind. 440A is usually considered an inferior steel, but I'd rather have my salt water filet knife made of 440A than L-6, simply because of it's ability to resist corrosion. Properly heat treated 5160 is wonderfully tough, and makes a fine choice for a "Camp Knife" that may see some light chopping. However; if I'm field dressing, or skinning large game, I would prefer the edge holding ability of 52100 ... etc.

Steel Alloys:
Steel is iron with carbon in it. Other alloys are added to make the steel perform differently. Here are the important steel alloys in alphabetical order, and some sample steels that contain those alloys:

Carbon: Present in all steels, it is the most important hardening element. Also increases the strength of the steel. We usually want knife-grade steel to have >.5% carbon, which makes it "high-carbon" steel.
Chromium: Added for wear resistance, hardenability, and for corrosion resistance. A steel with at least 13% chromium is deemed "stainless" steel. Of course, all steel can rust if not maintained properly.

Manganese: Manganese aids the grain structure, and contributes to hardenability. Also strength & wear resistance. Improves the steel (e.g., deoxidizes) during the steel's manufacturing (hot working and rolling). Present in most cutlery steel except for A-2, L-6, and CPM 420V.

Molybdenum: A carbide former, prevents brittleness & maintains the steel's strength at high temperatures. Present in many steels, and air-hardening steels (e.g., A-2, ATS-34) always have 1% or more molybdenum -- molybdenum is what gives those steels the ability to harden in air.

Nickel: Used for strength, corrosion resistance, and toughness. Present in L-6 and AUS-6 and AUS-8.

Silicon: Contributes to strength. Like manganese, it makes the steel more sound while it's being manufactured.

Tungsten: Increases wear resistance. When combined properly with chromium or molybdenum, tungsten will make the steel to be a high-speed steel. The high-speed steel M-2 has a high amount of tungsten.

Vanadium: Contributes to wear resistance and hardenability. A carbide former that helps produce fine-grained steel. A number of steels have vanadium, but M-2, Vascowear, and CPM T440V and 420V (in order of increasing amounts) have high amounts of vanadium. BG-42's biggest difference with ATS-34 is the addition of vanadium.



"STAINLESS" Steels:




All steels can rust. But some steels, because of their high chromium content (usually 13% or more), are more rust resistance than other steels.

420
Low carbon content (<.5%) than the 440 series makes this steel extremely soft, and it doesn't hold an edge well. It is used often for filet knives and diving knives, as it is extremely rust resistant. Also used often for very inexpensive knives. Outside salt water use, it is too soft to be a good choice for a utility knife.

440 A - 440 B - 440C
The carbon content (and hardenability) of this stainless steel goes up in order from A (.75%) to B (.9%) to C (1.2%). 440C is an excellent, high-end stainless steel, usually hardened to around 56-58 Rc. All three resist rust well, with 440A being the most rust resistant, and
440C the least. If your knife is marked with just "440", it is probably the less expensive 440A; if a manufacturer had used the more expensive 440C, he'd want to advertise that. 440-B is a very solid performer and 440-C is very good.

425M - 12C27
Both are very similar to 440A. 425M (.5% carbon) is used by Buck knives. 12C27 (.6% carbon) is a Scandanavian steel used often in Finish puukkos and Norwegian knives.

AUS-6 - AUS-8 - AUS-10 (aka 6A 8A 10A)
Japanese stainless steels, roughly comparable to 440A (AUS-6, .65% carbon) and 440B (AUS-8, .75% carbon) and 440C (AUS-10, 1.1% carbon). AUS-10 has roughly the same carbon content as 440C but with slightly less chromium, so it should be a bit less rust resistant but perhaps a bit tougher than 440C. All 3 steels have some vanadium added (which the 440 series lacks), which will improve wear resistance.

GIN-1 aka G-2
A steel with slightly less carbon, slightly more chromium, and much less moly than ATS-34, it is used often by Spyderco. A very good stainless steel.

ATS-34 - 154-CPM
A very "high-end" stainless steel. 154-CM is the original American version. ATS-34 is a Hitachi product that is very, very similar to
154-CPM, both are premium high quality stainless. Normally hardened to around 60 Rc, it holds an edge very well and is tough even at that high hardness. Not quite as rust resistant as the 400 series above. Many custom makers use ATS-34, and Spyderco (in their high-end knives) and Benchmade are among the production companies that use it.

ATS-55
Similar to ATS-34, but with the moly removed and some other elements added. The intent was to get ATS-34 edge-holding with increased toughness. Since moly is an expensive element useful for high-speed steels, and knife
blades do not need to be high speed, removing the moly hopefully drastically decreases the price of the steel while at least retaining ATS-34's performance. Spyderco is using this steel.

BG-42
This one is a sleeping giant. Bob Loveless switched from ATS-34 to this steel. BG-42 is somewhat similar to ATS-34, with two major differences: It has twice as much manganese as ATS-34, and has 1.2% vanadium (ATS-34 has no vanadium), so look for even better edge-holding than ATS-34. Chris Reeves has switched from ATS-34 to BG-42 in his Sebenzas.

CPM T440V - CPM T420V
Two steels that hold an edge superbly (better than ATS-34), but it's difficult to get the edge there in the first place. These steels are both high in vanadium. Spyderco, Kershaw, and some of the high end Knife companies are using this in some of their knives. Depending on heat treatment, expect to have to work a bit harder to sharpen these steels -- also, don't expect ATS-34 type toughness. 440V will have better edge retention than ATS-34, but the edge can be a little more brittle. 420V is CPM's follow-on to 440V, and with less chromium and almost double the vanadium, is more wear-resistant and may be tougher than 440V.



CARBON and alloy steels (non-stainless steels):


These steels are the steels most often forged. Stainless steels can be forged, but it is more difficult. In addition, carbon steels can be differentially tempered, to give a hard edge-holding edge and a tough springy back. Stainless steels are not differentially tempered. Of course, carbon steels will rust faster than stainless steels too, but usually are easier to sharpen and hold their edges extremely well.

Often, the last numbers in the name of a steel are fairly close to the steel's carbon content. So 1095 is ~.95% carbon. 52100 is ~1.0% carbon. 5160 is ~.60% carbon.

O-1
This is a steel very popular with forgers. It is an excellent steel, that takes and holds an edge superbly, and is very tough. It rusts easily, however. Randall Knives uses O-1, so does Mad Dog.

W-2
Reasonably tough and holds an edge well, due to its .2% vanadium content. Most files are made from W-1, which is the same as W-2 except for the vanadium content (W-1 has no vanadium).

The 10-series -- 1095 (and 1084, 1070, 1060, 1050, etc.)
Many of the 10-series steels for cutlery, though 1095 is the most popular for knives. When you go in order from 1095-1050, you generally go from more carbon to less, from better edge holding to less edge holding, and tough to tougher to toughest. As such, you'll see 1060 and 1050, used often for swords. For knives, 1095 is sort of the "standard" carbon steel, not too expensive and performs well. It is reasonably tough and holds an edge very well. It rusts easily.

0170-6 - 50100-B
These are different designations for the same steel: 0170-6 is the steel makers classification, 50100-B is the AISI designation. A good chrome-vanadium steel that is somewhat similar to O-1, but much less expensive. The now-defunct Blackjack made several knives from O170-6,
and Cold Steel's Carbon V may be 0170-6. 50100 is basically 52100 with about 1/3 the chromium of 52100, and the B in 50100-B indicates that the steel has been modified with vanadium, making this a chrome-vanadium steel.

A-2
An excellent air-hardening tool steel, it is known for its great toughness and good edge holding. As an air-hardening steel, so don't expect it to be differentially tempered. Its outstanding toughness makes it a frequent choice for combat knives. Chris Reeve and Phil Hartsfield both use A-2, and Blackjack made a few models from A-2. A new knife company called Expedition Knives is using Cyrogenically tempered A-2 tools steel in some of their knives. I've been trying one out, and it has excellent edge holding abilities.

L-6
A band saw steel that is very tough and holds an edge well, but rusts easily. If you're willing to put up with the maintenance, this is a very good steel, especially where toughness is desired.

M-2
A "high-speed steel", it can hold its temper even at very high temperatures, and as such is used in industry for high-heat cutting jobs. It is an excellent edge holder. It is tough but not as tough as some of the toughest steels in this section; however, it will still be tougher than the stainless steels and hold an edge better. It rusts easily. Benchmade has started using M-2 in one of their AFCK variations.

5160
A steel popular with forgers, it is extremely popular now and a very high-end steel. It is essentially a simple spring steel with chromium added for hardenability. It has good edge holding, but is known especially for its outstanding toughness (like L-6). Often used for swords (hardened in the low 50s Rc) because of its toughness, and is also used for hard use knives (hardened up near the 60s Rc).

52100
A ball-bearing steel, and as such is only used by forgers. It is similar to 5160 (though it has around 1% carbon vs. 5160 ~.60%), but holds an edge better. It is less tough than 5160 however. It is used often for hunting knives and other knives where the user is willing to trade off a little of 5160's toughness for better edge holding. Marbles uses 52100 in many of their knives.

D-2
D-2 is sometimes called a "semi-stainless". It has a fairly high chrome content (12%), but not high enough to classify it as stainless. It is more stain resistant than the carbon steels mentioned above, however. It has excellent edge holding, but may be a little less tough than some of the steels mentioned above. Bob Dozier uses D-2.



NON-STEELS USED BY KNIFEMAKERS


Cobalt - Stellite 6K & Talonite
A flexible material with very good wear resistance, it is practically corrosion resistant. Stellite 6K, sometimes seen in knives, is a cobalt alloy. David Boye uses cobalt for his dive knives. Talonite is very similar to Stellite, and is used quite a bit by Rob Simonich. Talonite & Stellite will have a much lower Rc hardness than some of the steels, but still cut equal to or better than many higher Rc rated steels. It's also super smooth, alowing the blade to glide more easily though whatever you are cutting.

Titanium
Newer titanium alloys can be hardened near 50 Rc, and at that hardness seem to take something approaching a useful edge. It is extremely rust-resistant, and is non-magnetic. Popular as expensive dive knives these days, because the Navy SEALs use it as their knife when working around magnetic-detonated mines.

Ceramics
Numerous knives have been offered with ceramic blades. Usually, those blades are very very brittle; however, they hold an edge well. Boker and Kyocera make knives from this type of ceramic.
 
Posts: 4394 | Location: USA | Registered: 17 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I have never read such a bunch of shat ????






Well, I guess that puts me in my place!!

Obviously,that 6 years in engineering school was wasted.

D.
 
Posts: 2821 | Location: Left Coast | Registered: 23 September 2001Reply With Quote
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Here's a metallurgists answer - Iron exists primarily as iron oxide ores.There are no ores containing carbon. Iron is made thus - FeO + C => Fe +CO2. However some iron making introduces carbon into the iron. This carbon must be reduced from high levels that make cast iron to lower levels that make steel. Yes steel is iron with carbon.
 
Posts: 7636 | Registered: 10 October 2002Reply With Quote
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I'd like to ask you a question that your six years in school will most assuredly allow you to answer. My barrel is made from 416R stainless. Can you give me a few sentences about the characteristics of this steel as opposed to a chrome-molybdenum used in gun barrels? How does it differ; how is it the same; which is more up the task?
 
Posts: 2758 | Location: Fernley, NV-- the center of the shootin', four-wheelin', ATVin' and dirt-bikin' universe | Registered: 28 May 2003Reply With Quote
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