The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 416-458-50 SS-50 B&M Series Cartridges/RiflesGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Coyote...... 458 B&M is a sweetheart to load. You can't screw it up that I know of, and believe me if anyone can screw something up I can!..... Run the size die down until the formed case just goes in the gun easy, without bumping. 458 B&M you can do this. Trim back to 2.240 and load up! .............. Recently discovered some incredible loads for the 416 B&M with RL 15 and now you can do this same with 416 B&M... Stick powders ONLY. One cannot shoot NEW FORMED brass with ball powders in 416 without bumping the case, you will experience head separation. But with the stick powders, RL 15, you can do the same as 458 B&M... 475 B&M, I have not solved it yet, even bumping the case! POS... I am not a 475 B&M Fan... Don't anyone get one! Get 458 or 50 B&M. 475 Super Short is a sweetheart however, as are the other Super Shorts... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Beau received his new 458B&M rifle yesterday and it is a sweet looking set-up with the Leupold VX-6 1-6x mounted in QRW rings. Mine should be back next week after having the AI stock modified. They will be going to africa with us in September for his rifles blooding - 3rd trip for mine. I have used a number of calibers, including a variety of large bore DG rifles, in africa over the past 20 years but am very biased in favor of the 458B&M cartridge and rifles. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Michael...Thanks...I thought it would be like the 9.3 B&M, stick powders, size with a little resistance closing the bolt. Went to a couple of local gun shops looking for some H-4198, there is none to be found and powder supplies are still low. I do have a good supply on hand of IMR4198, RL7 and TAC. The stocks that CDNN has will a short action fit a WSM ? | |||
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Coyote....... 458 B&M is the easiest loader of the shoulder based B&Ms.... You can do about anything with it. 416 and 9.3, stick powders for that first firing and good to go. Yes, powder is hard to come by.... I look every week at the various supply places, and I have not seen anything of value for over a month now..... I like TAC for the 450/420s, that has proven excellent in 458 B&M with the heavier bullets. I see all my data with the 250s is H-4198.. Sorry! It is top end for the 250s, but you can get very close to that with RL 7. You can't get enough RL 7 in the case to get over pressures. Run something like 77-78 RL 7 with the 250s, this should be well over 2800+ in 18 inches, and 50000-52000 PSI or so. If I get a chance soon... I will run some and get some pressure data on that...... Yes, CDNN, short action stocks, WSM actions, works great... In fact, I checked them yesterday and the camo Ultimates they had 12 or so, just now checked and they are down to TWO.... http://www.cdnnsports.com/ulti...sy.html#.UzLOI9zoYpM Black ones looks like plenty.... Good prices on those as well.... I put away a bunch of these, but short on the Camo Ultimates for the WSMs.... Have 25+ WSSM Camo Ulitimates..... I put away a good number of laminated as well to build on.... OH CRAP... Wait a minute... Yours is Left... No left Ultimates....... Left Sporter, could lay in as a spare....... for $49.99... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I took the first 458 B&M to Africa in 2007, Andrew and I went up to hunt with Dudley Rodgers which had two elephants on quota for us. I used the 50 B&M on the elephants, but instead of bringing his own rifle up to Zim, Andrew used the 458 B&M as his backup rifle, but it never fired a shot on that trip. Later after busting a couple of elephant, I went over to the Matetsi with Ross Johnston of HHK, and we hit 5 buffalo there, again with the 50 B&M, so the 458 saw no experience that year. My Alaska version went to Alaska in 2008, backup to another 50 B&M. Again, it was carried a lot, but the experience went to the 50 B&M once again. It was not until 2009 that I put the 458 B&M to work myself. Took it to Australia, along with the very first outing of the 500 MDM. Once again, the 458 B&M took a back seat to the 500. I shot something like 30 buffalo that year, and 10 or so with the 458 B&M. Back then I was using 450 Swifts, 500 Woodleigh softs, and backed with 450 Barnes Banded Solids... It did a great job, as I knew it would. Performed as good as anything I had ever done with 458 Win or 458 Lott...... Which is one reason it always took a back seat until then, I Knew how it was going to perform, and it had far less to prove than the other cartridges, in particular the various .500 caliber rifles. In 2011 I took my current 18 inch gunkote rifle to Zimbabwe in which it busted buffalo, hippo, and crocodile with extreme prejudice. Using current 450 #13 Solids and 420 #13 HPs....... And then, same rifle back to Zimbabwe in 2013 where I really gave the two 250 gr bullets a workout on everything from impala to elephant! Using the two 250 gr bullets, #13 and Socom, at 2900 fps in the 18 inch barrel I shot 8-10 plains game, impala to zebra/wildebeast and things in between. Incredible performance to say the least, with the vast majority DRT on the spot. Moving on to Zim, using the 250 Socom on a nice crocodile, and even one cow buffalo, and hippo with incredible results (no, I don't recommend the 250s for buffalo or hippo), and using the 450#13 Solid on a really good bull elephant. All this without ever having to change scope settings or adjustments, as POI was excellent with all the 450/420s, and the 250s...... One gun, 3 bullets, rule the world! Handy and fast this little gun is as well, 18 inches, 38 overall, 7.5 lbs with its bastogne stock, its lovely to work with, impala to elephant, everything in between. Of the entire B&M series, I think the 458 B&M may be the most versatile of the lot of them overall............. The various 500s are really for serious work at close range, while I have developed several bullets that are suitable for smaller lesser critters, and it does work well, still not quite as versatile as the 458. 416 comes close in versatility, and especially if most everything you will do excludes the heavies most of the time, I still like 458-500 on the heavies. I know I would never in this lifetime go back to a 24 inch long heavy beast of 458 Win or 458 Lott ever never ever again. Everytime I just carry one to the range for test work, I wonder why in the world I carried such crap for so many years? Never again......... Enjoy..... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Seems worthy to note that my .458B&M shooting the 450gr #13 solid killed my 2012 Ele at 15 yards, DRT frontal brain. And in 2013 Beau used it at 125 yards shooting the 250gr #13 Raptor on a Zebra stallion, and again DRT collapsed to the shot. Both these shots are on video, which I have provided to both Michael and Dan at CEB. The 458B&M has convinced me that it will do whatever I need it to do. With the choice of 3 different loads for 3 different and distinct purposes, all shooting to the same POI without the need to change nor adjust scopes/sights, I can't imagine a better rifle/caliber for a one gun safari covering the entire spectrum of african game, from Duiker to Elephant. Am I convinced? Bet your ass I am!  Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Ok this thread has been ignored for a while so I figure we need to bring it back to the front page. And yes I have a topic for the discussion… That topic being Michael’s newest .500 caliber cartridge. So here goes…
So we have quite a lot of information from these quoted posts. BUT we have a huge problem… Two different case photos!    First photo as a straight case ala 50 B&M, second photo with a shoulder ala 500 MDM… My presumption is the second photograph is correct – however only Michael can tell us for sure…  I personally believe this .500 cartridge just might be the optimum cartridge for the sporadic and 1st time DG hunter who desires to ‘move up’ is cartridge capability. As Michael notes, the true .500 caliber lineup of bullets is more extensive than the .510 caliber is weight capabilities. There are multiple solids for up close work, Tipped Hollow Points for long range shots, and Cup Point, Non-Tipped Hollow Points, or Blunt-Nose Softs for ‘in between work’ available from CEB and NF plus the many .500 S&W bullets available from Barnes, Sierra, Speer, and Hornady for play and practice. So what say ya'll? Oops, corrected the photos! Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Leave it to you Cappy to capture every word and post... HEH...... I better not make too many mistakes!!!! Quite correct on the photos of the 500 B&M, the first photo, showing 500 MDM--500 B&M--50 B&M shows NEW UNFIRED brass formed to fit in the 500 B&M... Second Photo shows fire formed brass, with the same ghost shoulder as the 500 MDM. Basics are, the 500 B&M is only a 2.5 inch 500 MDM..... 500 MDM being 2.8....... This allows me to use the longer nose projection Safari Raptors, 450 and 410, with the Talon Tip installed, and work and fit the magazine........ Changes to the rifle itself is the barrel contour, which is the lighter 50 B&M contour, and I had the barrel done at 18 inches, not the standard 500 MDM 20 inches. Rifle comes in at 8 lbs total and two inches shorter than 500 MDM and about an inch or so longer than 50 B&M..... In between in size, and power levels....... We did not have a stock when the rifle was first finished, Wes at Accurate was still working on it. I am still only able to shoot and do data on this cartridge because Sam made a neck sizing die for me. I full length size in the 500 MDM, which gets the body sized down, then neck size with the die Sam made, and load up. Dies on order from Hornady..... Funny how just any change at all makes a big difference in burn characteristics..... It does not work at all with the faster 50 B&M Powders, and is closer to the 500 MDM with powder preferences. It does very well with IMR 8208, and I probably use that as much as anything with it, but IMR 8208 I just can't get enough in the case to get the higher end velocity. Like the 500 MDM V-N530 and even H-4895 shows a tremendous potential. Take the 450 #13 Solid for instance, with IMR 8208, H-322, RL 10X, I am able to hit 2350-2380 fps, 54000-62000 PSI. Moving to X Terminator 2390 fps at 58000 PSI, very good. V-N530 at 2450 fps at 58000 PSI!!!!!!! And H-4895 at 2420 and 57000 PSI.... Both these powders showing tremendous potential, I just don't have anymore of either! I ran out quickly doing test work, only having 1 lb of each........ I did not wait on the AI stock to begin test work or data. I had a spare 500 MDM AI stock here, so I put the rifle in it doing a good bit of the test work, removing the plastic stock Brian built it on. Barrel channel was too large, and the stock longer to fit the MDM, but it worked for the test work until my Turkish AI stock was finished. Currently the gun is now at home in its Turkish Stock.......... Not the best of photos....   It is my intentions to use the rifle in June on Mark Davids buffalo hunt, where he will be using his 475 B&M Super Short. I will most likely try for buffalo/hippo myself with it....... I have not yet fully decided that the cartridge/rifle has any true advantages over either the 500 MDM, or 50 B&M to be perfectly honest. Yes, it has a tad more power per say than the 50 B&M, but it is also a tad larger rifle. It is less than the 500 MDM. Maybe a "Bastard Child" sort of thing....... I am just undecided of exactly what it is right now. Nothing wrong with it by any stretch. This is why there is no mention of it on the B&M site yet, and currently even at some point it does get mention, I doubt it will have a full page to its dedication. More or less, its basically something Michael is playing with...... These are my thoughts, what do the rest of you think??? I know Cappy likes it pretty good.... As does Head Trauma, and I think he already has one in the works...... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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According to VihtaVuori documentation the H-4895 has the same burn rate as V-530. The H-4895 is much more available as well, the last gun show I was in mid-March had tons of it. | |||
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Finally prodded some more information out of you. LOL... Ok so the 'new .500' is destined to obscurity same as the 50 B&M SA - your Semi Auto, my Short Action. Yes you use it in your DPMS but it's also perfect for the non-Winchesters - the M77 Ruger SA, the M700 Remington SA, etc..., basically all short action rifles not having the M70 WSM intermediate magazine length. To bad you didn't have the barrel marked 500 MDM XXX / 375 RUM; XXX insert Std (Standard), Exp (Express), or some such identifier - heck just make it 500 MDM 2.5" and be done with it. LOL... Anyway a big benefit of the corrected moniker is that it'd allow you to use your Horneber mfg 500 MDM brass for a more useful purpose than as a low pressure slug horses. LOL... Heck you could sell a 50 round box of brass with each 500 MDM XXX built and pretty soon it'd all be gone! This would preserve certain aspects of the .500 caliber cartridges - straight case for the various 50 B&M cartridges and the slight-bottleneck cartridges for the 500 MDMs. Yeah I know it throws a monkey wrench into whole B&M thing but you've done that already with the 500 MDM. Oh yes before I forget, you did create a valuable niche for the 2.5" case, that being as you've already noted, the ability to utilize the Talon Tip to extend the useful range of the Safari Raptor well beyond 200yds. Chambering the 50 B&M in a 3.4" magazine rifle and the 50 B&M SA in the WSM length action also allows the use the Talon Tipped Raptors. Yes powder is an issue - or should I say the continued shortage of powder is the issue. Once availability eases up and have a chance to 'powder mix' for the 2.5" it'll work even better. QL is still giving me issues with matching your current lab results. I'm not sure if your noted velocity is at the chrono or adjusted for muzzle velocity, anyway with reasonable adjustments I can stay pretty close to the 20-40 FPS range with the various loadings but all are a plus 4500-5000psi higher. I perceive this as not really anything substantial as I've had this issue with every update since QL v3.3 with QL reading this range higher than your lab chrono/pressure readings. And as Hornady hasn't produced your reloading dies yet it'd probably be easy to have the die labels changed... Ah yes, almost forgot. Again for the occasional DG hunter who also might be recoil sensitive, use the heavier 500 MDM barrel profile rather than the lighter 50 B&M barrel profile. It'd give a little more overall weight with much of it in the forehand for steadier offhand shooting if they're up to it... Ok, no specific label position so why not create a 'Niche Market' label and throw the 50 B&M SA along with all non-Winchesters into it. They're there, may as well get some publicity out of it. Well that's my pontificating for the moment... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Dang, finish one and the brain goes 'oh yeah'... We all know that you're a Winchester guy but a lot of folk use other brands. Staying totally with CRF full length extractors and two that come to mind are the M77 Ruger and the many FN mfg M98 Mauser commercial actions that have been sold as new in the USA from the 1950s through 1970s. Both of these actions are perfect for the .500 caliber 2.5" case but not with Talon Tips installed in the Safari Raptor bullets. However a potential,alternative exists...or will exist sometime next year. I intend to have Dan slightly modify the specs on the current 430gr MTH to reduce the nose projection by 0.100" or so in length and putz with the body shank and/or BT specs to at least keep the same BC. These changes would allow the use of the .500 copper MTH in the 2.5" case within a 3.4" magazines as well as the 50 B&M in the WSM case. Guess Dan could tweak it to also work in the 500 MDM using the standard M70 RUM magazine. That'd afford guys a pretty darn good bullet for longer range plains game hunting; probably work fine on close range buffalo work as well. Yep sounds like a plan in the making... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I got one for you, specifically about this 1000 pieces of Horneber 500 MDM low pressure brass I have. Yes, one of the reasons I leaned to "500" again now, is that brass. I had a "theory" that being 2.5 instead of 2.8 just might change characteristics of burn, brass flow, and what have you that the horneber brass might actually work. I have some grounds for this because of other areas and phenomena I have noted, in particular with the 2.24-2.25 B&M cases. Thing is, this is partially true now. I say partially because if I use brand new, never fired 500 MDM Horneber brass then it works 100% good to at least 62000 PSI, tested and done with several powders. However, once that brass had been fired, it no longer maintains those same properties, and gives a "Snappy" bolt lift, which is the first signs of too much pressure on the brass, with all the B&Ms and MDM as well. Bolts open easy, but at the top of throw there is a snap. Now on at least one particular POS RIFLE and of course in 475 B&M what else, this was a mechanical issue, not a pressure issue. On all the other rifles it will be a pressure issue. In this case being the horneber brass cannot hold 60000 after it has been fired... Strange, but true.... This snap at the top of bolt throw goes down to at least 55000, I have not tried it under 55000 yet....... Forming brass is a bit boring..... Some few weeks ago, one Saturday morning, I was busy forming some 500 MDM....... Too much time to think......and looking for an excuse to stop forming, even for a few minutes maybe. The 458 B&M EX came to mind, parent case, 500 B&M... HEH HEH...... Reamers in the works........ Still not satisfied at that, back to forming brass.............. Again, I ordered up the new 475 and 525 .500 caliber solids, specific .600 nose projection........... Had I formed much more brass that Saturday morning, it would have cost me a fortune............. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Oh, and as a Side NOTE concerning Horneber........ I believe it was October of 2011 as I recall that I decided to try Horneber one more time. After some weeks of email and confirm that I want 65000 PSI brass, Dieter Horneber and I came to terms with 2000 pieces of B&M brass, not formed, but basic straight....... I sent a tad over $4000.00 to his account........ I was told February of 2012 I would have brass............. Well, its now April 2014 and I have no F**K**G Brass, I tried for a year to contact, no luck there either......... Needless to say I am not a satisfied customer........ Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael that sucks with the Horneber brass...definitely not drawn correctly to withstand the correct RUM pressure. I know in the past it was a somewhat laughing matter - meaning moderate high pressure soft - but Ed Hubel indicates that Bruce Bertram has new equipment and has figured out the proper drawing process to maintain high pressure loadings in his brass. Not sure if he produces RUM brass, but if so, perhaps a run of brass with just B&M and MDM, no caliber designation, on the headstamp would work for Africa and the generic basic brass could be used for everything from the MDM down to the SS. Or perhaps two basic brass draws; one at 2.3" or so and one at 2.9" or so lengths. Not sure how far Bertram is from Paul, but perhaps Paul could determine whether Bruce manufactures RUM brass and the quality of the brass? Might be a solution beyond Quality Cartridge. Or I can just stay out of it...  Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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And that really sucks about the extra order and monies sent. I'm trying to recollect which company owns Horneber, not sure if its RAUG or some other company. But I'd say identifying which company is the parent and a letter to their legal staff might get some satisfaction...at least hopefully so... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Still looking for parent company for Huelsen-Horneber. It isn’t RUAG though. RAUG under the RUAG Ammotec division does produce sporting ammunition and powder under its RWS®, Rottweil®, GECO®, Norma® and Hirtenberger® brand names. H-H ????? Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Not that you need my thoughts, but that is a very nice looking rifle. The inexpensive version of it is the 500 AccRel Nyati on a control-feed Hawkeye. They would hunt about the same and both should put down animals with authority. How do those short barrels affect the ears? I went 22" on my 500 AcRlNyati as a compromise, since I usually hunt 'open-eared'. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Cappy....... Yes, this brass issue has been really a pain. After the Horneber incident I really have become discouraged with the whole thing. There is Captech which I contacted early when they were starting back up, but got wind of some of their requirements and went beyond what I was willing to expense from personal funds..... The best and simple solution for any future issues is to mark the barrels.... Such as... 500MDM/375RUM or 458 B&M/300RUM, or 50 B&M Super Short/300WSM in this manner all bases are covered, and use the brass the cartridge was designed around without issue, and reach full potential. I actually got the contact info for Bertram from Ed, sent email, never got a reply........
Tanz....... What did you say??? Can't f**K**G hear you?............  I don't know, I can't tell any real difference between a long barrel, short barrel, noise wise, both loud, but in the field shooting buffalo, I never hear a thing, Auditory Shuts down completely at the shot, amazing I think how that works....... Shoot on the range and forget your hearing protection, ESPECIALLY my indoor range, and you won't do that but one time I promise... I know! LOL.................. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, Still sucks about Horneber; to bad about Bertram. Yep including the RUM label on the barrel eliminates the issue... Tanz, In the heat of the hunt, as the shooter, I doubt that I'd perceive the difference between a shot fired from a 16" barrel vs a 28" barrel. An observer might notice a difference in the sound pulse but they should be to the rear and not to the side so it shouldn't be an issue either way. Electronic hearing protection both at the range and in the field. We should be doing all we can to protect our hearing from high decibel level noise period. I'll be wearing the molded in-ear electronic hearing protection in the future when in the field regardless of with handgun, rifle, or shotgun. I just need to figure out which ones will work best for my hearing and my wife's; May or may not be the same manufacturer... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NwbGFd16QuY Suppressed 500 S&W Maybe this is what you need 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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BTW, have there been any discussions with North Fork in regards do doing some Percussion Point bullets in .500? They have them from .458 down. I see some cat hunting in my future, and those would be nice to use on a 500 MDM. | |||
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Michael Was discussing a brown bear hunt with a friend the other day, and we got to talking about that 458 B&M SS i have- Personally I think it is plenty for Brownies, inside say 150 yds, but what bullet would you use? 250 gr BBW#13 w/Talon tip 295 gr BBW#13 HP 300 gr NF soft point SSR "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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That was a new one on me - was aware of the SS bullets but not the PP bullets... Anyway, regarding .500 caliber NF soft points, there are three bullets weights in that caliber but all are flat point. Reason they're FP is that Michael funded the various drawing dies for these bullets for use primarily in the .500 B&M Alaskan (lever rifle) but they'll work as well in bolt or single shot guns. I actually talked to NF a couple of years ago, right after they released Michael's FP bullets, regarding the possibility of producing their prototype .510 caliber bore-riding SS bullet in .500 caliber. I found out the history behind the bore-riding SS and why it hadn't been introduced yet - it's all about money 'cause the drawing dies are individually very expensive and each single caliber bullet weight requires three drawing dies. The NF guys are really nice and I'd truly have liked to help them move forward with the bullet design but unfortunately my pockets weren't deep enough for one die let alone three dies just for a single bullet weight. Hope this helps... Oh yes, cat hunting... As you're not likely looking at 300-400 yard shots the .500 caliber NF FP bullets should do you just fine... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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capo- Weigh in also on Brownie bullets if you would "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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Hey Sean how goes it my friend… 458 B&M SS and Brownies…  I ‘d want a shoulder fired howitzer for Brownies up close… LOL…Ok...Ok… You’ve listed three great bullets -
- and any of the three would do a tremendous job on Brownies and we know from Michael’s recent trip that the Talon Tiped 250gr Safari Raptors are extremely deadly on critters below the Cape Buffalo/Asian Buffalo in bone mass and durability… The only other bullet off the top of my head that I can think of is the 300gr Barnes TTSX.   As you can see from the photographs, Michael substantiated that Barnes designed this bullet to perform in the lower velocity range of the .458 caliber, and it works very well. That’s about all I can come up with… Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Tanks........... Cappy gave you some excellent info, and pretty much the scoop on the North Fork Softs, PP or normal ones, I THINK???? But, I am not sure of the exact build of the PP bullets? From North Fork...
Not sure exactly what goes into making a PP... Thinner jacket on the top end maybe...... The thing with the bullet dies to make the North Fork Softs is the "Nose Profile" always has to stay the same, but weight can change... We have a 450 and a 400 gr .500 North Fork Soft, same nose profile...... Now, if it is just the thinner jacket at the top, then it might be possible to do a PP, but the nose profile would be the same as the Premium softs we have in 450 and 400...... ??? Maybe????? Something I could ask John about for sure.......... Might be something I am not accounting for, and probably is.. But can't cost nothing to find out..... Regardless, I don't have concrete pressure data on the 400s, but I am sure they will run 2600 or so, and at that velocity they would turn kitty inside out........ We can also run that 335 Raptor at over 2900 fps as well, this would turn kitty inside out and skin him for you too........ Either one, kitty won't go anywhere........... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Sean...... I believe any of the three picked would do fine..... Because of penetration, I would lean to the two NonCons, and might lean a bit more to the 295 #13..... I have had the 250 pass through zebra broadside, about the same size as a brown. But since a big brown has lots of teeth, and lots of claws, might look harder at the 295 for that..... Any expanding bullet, TSX or even North Fork in the 300 class has less penetration than either the 295 or 250...... I will be out of town most all of next week, so will try and catch you guys on the fly, or when I return....... Later Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Thanks Michael for bringing up the performance of the Raptor on cats...I'd forgotten to mention it (them). Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Just finished reading all 64 pages of this thread spanning several years. It was nice to get an idea of the trials, and tribulations of getting the B&M cartridges going, I almost felt I was right there along as I was reading. Thanks to all involved in development, and of course Michael. The enthusiasm is catching, now Michael did say he had another lefty action. Hmmmm, what to complement/back-up the 500 MDM already on order with that can reach out to 300 yards and beyond?  | |||
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Tanks, Why not just use your 500 MDM for that 300yd or so shooting? Here’s an example of what can be done with the .500 caliber with proper bullets… Excerpted from – Cutting Edge Bullets: 49-Bore/.500-Caliber/.338LM Improved of 2010 ... 12.7x68Magnum http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/5931027531/p/7 Just another prospective… The thread is a good read and only 8 pages in length. The 500 MDM and the 12.7x68 Magnum are pretty close in powder capacity; the 12.7’s case is just a little shorter and larger in diameter than the MDM. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I don't want to put a scope on it. So, I was thinking either the 375 or 416. Barnes also makes TTSX bullets for both calibers. The idea also being a backup gun for DG to 500MDM. Of course, according to Michael
Edit: One other thing to consider is that the 225gr Raptor produces ~32 lbs of recoil energy in 416 whereas the 500MDM produces ~68 pounds with a 335gr Raptor. The long distance shots most likely will be prone, so a bit less than half the recoil while still doing the job is beneficial in my view. | |||
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Spoke with Terry at SSK today, my 500 B&M barreled action built on a M70 is nearing completion, just a couple of weeks more  I have a D'Arcy Echols magnum fill stock that I will use for some initial load development and general fooling around with, interested in seeing how it withstands the recoil. | |||
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Ok I understand. So the obvious choice is the 416 B&M - and I might add that I have fired this cartridge at 325yds...and it is a very accurate cartridge/rifle combo. There's also a great availability of various bullet weights. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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In the catagory of DG stalking rifles in which the B&M/Accurate Innovations/CEB Raptor-Safari Solid of cart/gun/bullet combo is the pinnacle in bolt action catagory the 500 B&M is a great addition. I am guessing the 2.5" 500 B&M with the .5" or less tip to canalure 500 S&W bullets like the CEB lever gun bullets and 300 to 500 grain Hornady bullets could still work in the 3" WSM magazine. The 500 grain flat nose needed some rounding to work well but the spitzer and rounded edge ones would work well I guess. The advantage of the 500 B&M in the short action would be to load the 300 grain bullets to full length of magazine but the longer bullets can be loaded out in the 2.25" versions obviously. Yes the lead bullets would over expand at high impact velocities but the mono metal copper and brass bullets would shine. Handy, light, short big bore stalking rifles are my cup of tea :-) 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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+1 on the 416 B&M---nothing i have shot with it has complained yet--- "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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 Boomy I had to read this a few times to truly understand what you were saying. So you want to reduce the bullet protrusion capability by a ¼” to make it to make room for a ¼” longer case).  Ok…the 50 B&M is a straight case while the 500 B&M is a bottleneck case (basically a shorter 500 MDM. While this may be safe, I personally would prefer both be straight cases to do this… Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I am saying that there are plenty of snub nose pistol and lever action bullets that could shoehorn the 500B&M into a WSM action OAL although it is best suited to a longer action while praising the function and form factor of big bore stalking rifles. If you make a 500 B&M in a RUM action you gain mag fed high BC bullets or perhaps single load those same high BC bullets in a short action. Just wrapping my brain around some possible benefits of a 2.5" case vs a 2.25" case. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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No I understand what you're pondering. Yes there is some tinkering that can be done. The M70 WSM magazine is the primary limiting factor at 3.100" max and the MRC WSM magazine is 3.200" max. I don't recollect the 300gr Raptor protrusion with the Talon Tip installed - but, the 500gr Hornady FP-XTP with nose rounded is in the 0.676"-0.700" protrusion length range. Using a 0.676" nose protrusion with a 3.100" magazine gives a case length of 2.394" max to afford 0.030" magazine clearance. If the nose protrusion is slightly longer or the internal magazine length is less than stated the max case length is even shorter. If the M70 WSM is the specified action, just chamber for the 50 B&M 2.25" length and just trim the case to the 50 B&M SA 2.00" case length to gain your extra ¼” . If the 500 B&M were a straight case you could chamber it in a standard length CRF action with 3.4” magazine and just trim the case length to accommodate the nose protrusion of the bullet being used… Being a bottleneck you have issues with the shoulder and shoulder angle to deal with... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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From what I gather the WSM and the RUM actions are easiest to convert to these carts because of the width of case being designed specifically for this use with the Ruger M77 in honorable mention for mid length actions. What I was thinking was the 500 B&M would be a modern equivalent of a 50-110 in a short action being a fat stubby bullet protruding but capable of shooting 300 to 500 or more grain projectiles for up close big bore stalking rifles with short barrels. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Ok now I fully understand…nostalgia… Anyway, yes it is much easier to chamber a WSM or RUM, or for that matter a RSAUM in an action delivered in one of these cartridges from the factory. The Ruger M77 Standard Action is an exception principally due to its magazine being factory wider than other standard length actions… And don’t forget, the Ruger M77 MKII SA was factory chambered in the SAUM and WSM cartridges. Ok back to your 50-110 WCF… To answer your ultimate question, yes you can squeeze the 500 B&M cartridge into the M70 WSM by keeping bullets seated with a very short nose protrusion. Even the CEB Lever Solids and Raptors would require seating the upper band within the case to stay within the magazine when using Michael’s 2.495” case trim-to length – basically you’d be crimping the case just past the upper edge of the top driving band. If you do go down this path I’d really recommend going with the MRC WSM action as that extra 0.100” in magazine length would at least allow you to seat the Lever Solid and Raptor bullets so the case is crimped between the two upper driving bands (normal practice). Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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