Well, while we wait patiently, ALMOST, for the New System 83 to show up thought I would play with my little Ruger #1 in 50 B&M Alaskan today........... DO NOT USE THESE LOADS IN A LEVER GUN........

450 #13 Solid.....IMR 4198 2124 fps
450 #13 Solid.....H 4198 2126 fps

410 #13 HP........IMR 4198 2199 fps
410 #13 HP........H 4198 2200 fps
These were start loads 1 gr above the matching 450 #13 Solid... I never messed with more, but could add
lots more....

375 #13 Solid SS Long Nose projection 2303 fps

335 #13 HP SS Long Nose projection 2423 fps

And at no time did I see or experience any sort of pressures.................

DO IT KICK!

Michael

I have the Oehler 35P Chronograph-the first one I ordered had a malfunction on one of the screens and gave wid readings. I called their customer service department and talk to a fellow for about two hrs -he had me set up the whole thing over and walked me through the diagnostics. Could not make it work--he said --send it back- and I had a new machine with-in a week, And when it showed up they had me call and we went through the whole thing to make sure it was working properly.

I CANNOT say enough good things about Oehlers customer service.

Good luck with the new pressure unit. hope to get back there to see it sometime.

SSR

Sean
Got an email from Oehler a hour ago and the System 83 is on its way, it should be here first of the week or so.

I expect some really good things to come in the future with the use of the 83...... Some fun things, back to
powder blending, finish 500 B&M data, and might even hook up to do some more traditional cartridges, there will be no lack of projects to use the 83 on..........

Michael

That #1 looks so sweet!
Details and more pics if you please

Beautiful and strong looking wood grain.
I am imagining a .408 Chey-Tac with 26" barrel or a ".416 Kraken"(.416/.408CT) with 24-28" barrel on a Ruger No. 1.

But I am also taking notes on the comparison between IMR-4198 and H4198. Not much difference, eh?
Keeping the weight of powder charges secret???
Same charges for both powders???

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
"Meet my little friend" ... my little Ruger #1 in 50 B&M Alaskan today........... DO NOT USE THESE LOADS IN A LEVER GUN........

450 #13 Solid.....IMR 4198 2124 fps
450 #13 Solid.....H 4198 2126 fps

410 #13 HP........IMR 4198 2199 fps
410 #13 HP........H 4198 2200 fps
These were start loads 1 gr above the matching 450 #13 Solid... I never messed with more, but could add
lots more....

375 #13 Solid SS Long Nose projection 2303 fps

335 #13 HP SS Long Nose projection 2423 fps

And at no time did I see or experience any sort of pressures.................

RIP......

Yes, "My Little Friend"....... This was one of the 1999 50th Anniversary guns in 45/70. 45/70 makes an easy conversion to the 50 B&M AK.... 20 inch barrel, and 6.5 lbs, overall 36.5 inches, same length as an 18 inch guide gun, or 16 inch Super Short.... Makes a very nice little package, and looks pretty good too...... I have had this rifle since 1999, but had never messed with it, no time, no inclination, not much interest. Figured I did not need a 45/70 if I had 50 B&M AK, and figured I needed a #1 very bad in 50 B&M AK.... And would actually get some use of it............

Since the same cartridge fits in the lever guns, so I DON"T get confused one day I will load all the loads for the #1 with bullets that will not fit or work through the lever guns. Some of these loads listed at these velocities would blow the lever guns into pieces... Thus my reluctance to enter charge weights..... Difference in the two 4198s is about 2 grs more of H-4198 to equal............ In some of these cases I just ran out of powder capacity, cases would just fall out of the gun........... And I figured a 450 at 2100 was plenty enough..... LOL..... I have more play in mind, like some 300s at whatever, and some 500 and 550s as well, just to see. This case loves the 4198s best of all, works in the levers and this rifle very nicely

M

Doc M,
Maybe you should try the H4198 in the 500 MDM Ultra.
It works pretty good in the "49-10" aka 12.7x68mm Magnum.
Just working with you here to see if you can remember the name of a wildcat cartridge besides your own.

Actual chronograph data in 2 different 12.7x68mm Magnum/49-10 rifles, don't think I have shown these here before (no bragging targets here),
but does hint that maybe 95 grains of H4198 or 98 or 100 grains of H322 might be accuracte loads in my rifles:

95.0 grains of H4198 used with CEB .500/350-gr ESP Raptor-Tipped brass bullet, both rifles 24"-barreled, 1:12" twist:
Rifle No. 1 >>> 2893 fps
Rifle No. 2 >>> 2905 fps
104.0 grains of H322 was required to equal the velocity of 95.0 grains of H4198 in rifle No. 2, the faster rifle for whatever reason.



50 yard targets to start getting an idea of accuracy:



Same two rifles, same .500-cal/350-grain CEB ESP Raptor-Tipped bullet with H322 powder this time:

RIP

I have used H-4198 in the 500 MDM...... Looking back on the load data 300#13 HP I used 98/H-4198 for 2960 fps and 100/H-4198 for 3020 fps, which was getting a little sticky. With the 335 HP 96/H-4198 for 2870 fps and 60428 PSI....

But my favorite 350 ESP Raptor load has been with RL 7 94/RL 7 for 2749 fps and 57729 PSI.. I used this a couple of years ago when this bullet first came on, then just now in Australia on the big bull.. It worked great, normally not much of a ESP Raptor guy in the big bores, but this bullet has really done a great job on everything. In the 19 inch guns I only get 2690 fps with the same load... But it is enough..... I could not work with more than 94/H-322 with this bullet because of case bulge, 96 bulged the case so much it would not chamber..... That #13 Solid down in the case does not allow for good compression, pushes powder out and to the side. I still got 2640 fps in 21 inches at 50000 PSI...

M

Doc M,
Good to know your loads, of RL-7, always a good powder for me in the 45-70.
But I am simplifying my powder selections, mostly to Hodgdon Extreme, for temperature insensitivity and accuracy.
Also good to know that I do have a slight case capacity advantage over the 500 MDM Ultra with my 12.7x68mm Magnum aka 49-10,
and do not have to bulge my cases.

Set aside the Grey Goose. You can do this. Not that hard. Just think this as a mnemonic:

30-06 = 30-bore of 1906: .308-caliber bullet
49-10 = 49-bore of 2010: .500-caliber bullet

RIP... I will do the best I can do, sometimes I get my own stuff confused however.....



I am a very excited and HAPPY CAMPER today.....

Oehler System 83 is up and running..............

I have positive connections, at least on one rifle so far, and it appears to be damn perfect, or as good as it can get anyway.......

I hooked up the new 500 B&M, which I had been testing on the PT 2 unit, which was calibrated from PT 1.
I picked 3 loads that had been tested on PT 2, three different powders. I wanted to see how close and if in fact the new Oehler was a stand alone system. And of course, to check my prior traces to see how they matched up.

Here are the results;


450 #13 Solid 83/H-322 Oct 20--2251 fps PT2--50032 PSI Oct 30--2271 fps Oehler--51500 PSI

450 #13 Solid 81/RL 10X Oct 20--2259 fps PT2--51635 PSI Oct 30--2236 fps Oehler--50400 PSI

450 #13 Solid 91/IMR 8208 Oct 20--2298 fps PT2--48629 PSI Oct 30--2302 fps Oehler--48600 PSI


It don't get much better than that!!!!!!!

For this 500 B&M data looks to be spot on the money when comparing previous PT data and the new Oehler. In the case of the first two loads, H-322 is slightly higher than PT2, but so is the velocity as well. WIth the RL 10X load, Oehler is slightly lower, but also the velocity is lower as well, these thing correlate with each other. In any case, in either of these two loads, you could have that much variance in shot to shot, much less 10 days difference, and two different systems!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the case of the IMR 8208 it is dead on the money..... Incredible........

During the rest of the week I will be looking at 500 MDM, 458 B&M, and 416 B&M as well, comparing loads and data to confirm prior older data taken. So far it looks EXTREMELY PROMISING..............

Hi Michael,

Nice Ohler system. You will come to love a real professional system.

Would you please modify the case in a nice English walnut or maybe one of those beautiful wildebeest skins. The aluminum just clashes with everything else.

Regards,
John

Very nice unit Michael. Went to Oehler's website and they sure have some nice toys for the System 83 - I especially like the Acoustic Target Option's information stream (when used). Looks like you have a winner!

Almost forgot - Case fire forming - occasional case separation with low pressure loading - zero case separation with standard pressure loading - issue from the previous page...

And I'm also recollecting RIP's fire forming of the 49-10 case by fire forming a loaded 338 Lapua Magnum in the 49-10 chamber with zero loss of cases.

Just musing here... The case separation appears to take place at or just past the point in the case body where the inner body tapers from the thick case head area to the thinner case wall.

So - could it be a situation where the lower pressure fire forming is insufficient to cause any 'brass working' of the case head area resulting in all 'case stretching' commencing from the point where the case wall thins sufficiently. Conversely the standard pressure loading is sufficient to cause 'brass working' to commence at the case head forward which eliminates the issue noted in the precious sentence.

I know very poorly worded, but am I totally off base in this or am I somewhat understanding what is happening? Reason I ask is that it'll likely completely change the methodology I'll future use to form my cases...

Ok, let me know if I'm or not.

Jim concerning the case head separation, every cartridge is going to be different, and its a learning curve on how they are formed, or even the type powder used for the first load. Both 500 MDM and 416 B&M are a bit different with 416 using stick powders is no problem on the first firing and full sized, with ball powder, problem. 500 MDM depending on how it was formed to begin with. Using corn meal, then there is little issue afterwards. Forming in the dies, I have the occasional few, maybe 2-4 out of 50. Considering the time and effort in the two processes, I lean towards the formed cases, and loose a few.....

The 475 B&M I just have not figured a way with it yet short of bumping that shoulder. Zero issues with any of the others.....

M

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
Hi Michael,

Nice Ohler system. You will come to love a real professional system.

Would you please modify the case in a nice English walnut or maybe one of those beautiful wildebeest skins. The aluminum just clashes with everything else.

Regards,
John

John, I like the system, and from what I learned yesterday it is in fact a stand alone unit. In other words, what you see is what you get, and its about as close as you can be.

I was very happy to see that it matches all my old data so far, which confirms what I always thought and considered PT 1 to be a proper unit, and that says a lot for that unit. WIth all data from PT 1 matching the Oehler now, just another of my concerns has now faded into history.

I tested loads with the 458 B&M yesterday afternoon and yet again it was a perfect matchup, one of which was an exact matchup, the 450 #13 Solid with 76/TAC 62340 PSI in The PT and 62300 PSI in the Oehler..... The Oehler does not read in 10ths, only goes to 100ths........

Yes, the aluminum box is not all that attractive, but it works, and is a tool. I don't like the software of the Oehler all that much, at least so far, but as always there is a learning curve. Reports are basic numbers, and so far I have not figured out how to see the entire test curves yet, which I like to see and tells one a lot about what is going on inside the rifle. Saving individual tests is not as easy as "Save Test As".... Saves itself, somewhere and if not done proper disappears, I lost one yesterday I can't pull up, but fortunately I always hard copy everything so I have the numbers of course. Software actually needs an upgrade I think to something a little more versatile, or I need an upgrade myself, which might be more likely I think..... Like all this stuff, once one gets used to the system we find things we like and dislike, but what has top PRIORITY is the numbers, they are real, and the system is working and will give the right pressure on every shot.

Something we all must understand about all of this, these pressures are good in THIS GUN, THIS DAY, THIS POWDER LOT..... Change rifles, chambers are different, barrels are different, and other factors. Change the day, environmental considerations, change the keg of powder.... My Powder is not your powder and it very well may be different. So pressure is relative to these factors always, regardless of cartridge................ And now matter what it is NOT ABSOLUTE in any way, close yes, ABSOLUTE.. No way, not possible..........

Michael

To Everyone,

Michael's last paragraph is very import to all handloaders. Take this very seriously. Looking at primers, brass flow, primer hits, sticky bolt, are not accurate or good indicators of pressure. If you see these, you are already over pressured and by a significant amount. We have tested numerous loads with our equipment that did not show any signs and were still 5-10ksi overpressure. It gives real testament to how strong modern actions really are. With today's powders and large cases, the visual measurements of old do not apply. If one really wants to know, a pressure system is a must as a chronograph does not tell all. Michael's statement is why we always recommend starting 5-10% lower from max in any powder charge and work up if possible.

Regards,
John

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
To Everyone,

Michael's last paragraph is very import to all handloaders. Take this very seriously. Looking at primers, brass flow, primer hits, sticky bolt, are not accurate or good indicators of pressure. If you see these, you are already over pressured and by a significant amount. We have tested numerous loads with our equipment that did not show any signs and were still 5-10ksi overpressure. It gives real testament to how strong modern actions really are. With today's powders and large cases, the visual measurements of old do not apply. If one really wants to know, a pressure system is a must as a chronograph does not tell all. Michael's statement is why we always recommend starting 5-10% lower from max in any powder charge and work up if possible.

Regards,
John

John.... Absolutely correct. To further back those statements, this is what Ken Oehler has to say;

"Chamber Pressure measurement is a blend of science, black art, and common sense. There are few absolutes; the best we can expect is to reliably distinguish between the safe, and the unsafe. Pressure measurements are tedious, but they must be made. Pressure will literally rise up to smite the unwary."

I have been working with the Oehler 83 the last few days and have been very pleased with the results I have been getting. It did raise some questions yesterday with some previously tested loads in the 500 B&M that were way too high, compared to the previous test in the PT unit. Everything else was matching up nearly perfect with the PT. So this morning I was doing some brain storming about this, and took a look at PT 2. My problem a couple of weeks ago might have been because the batteries in the unit needed changing?????? When I thought of this, I could not recall changing the batteries since getting the unit running, a year ago. I changed the batteries, and like magic, it worked like a charm! Duhhhh......

So, I retested several loads from yesterday in the PT... And I found the PT was in agreement with the Oehler on this load that had tested hi pressure. Same keg of powder exactly? I did change lots of primers, and I did start putting a fairly heavy crimp in the load... This is all I can account for?

I tried two other loads that were tested in the Oehler 83 yesterday, two different powders, and different bullets.... PT matched the Oehler 83 exactly.

This is very pleasing to me, although the PT 2 unit is not a stand alone system, and unless you have a way to calibrate it, it is worthless. But if calibrated properly to a particular rifle, then the data you get from then on is very good, and very consistent, and you can put trust in the system, just using the Oehler 83 for comparisons has proven that. It is pleasing to me, as I really like the software in the PT far better than the Oehler 83, which I feel like is rather outdated as far as saving test results, and what you see on the reports. The pressure trace curve on the Oehler leaves a LOT to be desired and one really can't read anything from the trace itself. Yes, you get a stand alone number, that is as close as you are going to get to correct, but being able to study that trace is just not possible, and information is too little to suit me. Saving tests for later viewing is far better in the PT units software too, easier to save, easier to find, and much much easier to work with.

So with all this in mind, I will continue the bulk of the pressure work here with a calibrated PT 2 unit, and back those up with confirmations from the Oehler System 83... Then I have it all... Excellent reports and curves I can study from PT 2, and excellent confirmation and calibration from the mighty Oehler 83. I am pleased with all systems working together right now.......

Also this morning, as reported on the Terminal Thread above, my son Matthew connected with a very nice Whitetail this morning.... 10 Points, even, with a 223, 50 gr CEB Raptor at 3200 fps............ A very happy young fellow this morning........

Whew!
Doc M is still alive, did not blow himself up.
Deer season and laboratory tinkering can put a crimp in ar.com reporting time.

Congrats to Matthew on an excellent trophy, and for helping to control roadkill in SC.


Hopefully I will make it to DSC Jan 9-12, 2014.
I here Paul Truccolo is going to be there.

RIP....

Yep, still kicking, did not realize I had not been reporting....???? Not blown up YET... Although some readings have said I should have been......

I let the boys take care of the deer, I will do the lab work.... I have miles to go before I sleep, and 1000s of things to test, and way too many projects floating around to put the PTs and Oehler to work on......

Matt was a very happy chap this morning, he did very well, and so did that little wicked ass bullet......

We would love to see you at DSC.... Booth 932, right next to Dan at CEB, and just behind Paul Truccolo, yes, Paul will be there, and he will be here for a week before DSC............

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
DSC.... Booth 932, right next to Dan at CEB, and just behind Paul Truccolo, yes, Paul will be there, and he will be here for a week before DSC............
M

You guys remember that 500 MDM Horneber brass I got a couple of years ago.. 1000 pieces, and at the time in the 500 MDM could not get it over 45000 PSI without it sticking in the gun???? Remember....

Well, on a whim, I decided to cut and trim 25 pieces of this for the 500 B&M... 2.5 inches. Over the last couple of days I have been testing it and yesterday morning was able to take it to 60000 PSI with zero issues..... ??????? Hmmmmm? Why?

OK, two theories on this... One, is that the brass simply works different being shorter.... I find that the 50 B&M with the exact same brass as the 500 MDM will hold a lot more pressure than the 500 MDM... Shorter? Possible, as dynamics of burning change.

Theory #2.... The type powder being burned? Back in Jan I burned a lot of RL 15, slow for the 500 MDM, with the Horneber brass and zero issues, but I don't think I was running more than 50000 PSI at that time... Something I need to investigate further. It's very possible that a change in powder and the way it burns in the 500 MDM will change the way the brass flows, and takes pressure, another thing that I need to investigate in 500 MDM......

Currently for sure I can use this brass now up to at least 60000 PSI in the 500 B&M.... Pretty good news for what I had considered useless brass for the last couple of years.....

M

Change the name of the 500 B&M 2.5" to 500 MDM 2.5",

aka 50X MDM 2.5" and 500 MDM 2.8".

Or what the heck, just have a 500 MDM 2.5" and 2.8" to match 1000 pieces of brass with 2 different cartridges.

Will be thinking about the physics of this brass thing ...

Why not go ahead and make a 500MDM 3.0

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Change the name of the 500 B&M 2.5" to 500 MDM 2.5",

aka 50X MDM 2.5" and 500 MDM 2.8".

Or what the heck, just have a 500 MDM 2.5" and 2.8" to match 1000 pieces of brass with 2 different cartridges.

Will be thinking about the physics of this brass thing ...

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Why not go ahead and make a 500MDM 3.0

Brent....

2.8 and 2.5 and 2.25 will do fine.. HEH......... Maybe 2.6? LOL... No way, screwing with you, enough is enough..... 2.5 500 B&M is an experiment, although turning out to be somewhat successful on several counts.

One is the "physics" of the brass issue, as RIP terms it, properly. I purposely started with 25 pieces of RUM brass, and have run the entire test and load data thus far with the same 25 pieces, I have not lost a piece yet due to head separation, or any other issue. I have ran 65 separate test runs thus far, giving the brass lot being fired a total of 5 times at this point. Now, the Horneber to 60000 PSI without issues. I can't help but think there is some sort of dynamics going on between 2.25 2.5 and 2.8....????? I may never actually get an answer for this, nor am I all that concerned about a actual answer. Either is, or ain't, and that will be suitable for my purpose.

I worked with the 500 MDM yesterday, doing a rather extensive test between the Oehler 83 and PT 2. Results were extremely close in most cases less than 1000 PSI difference, closer in some tests, and the highest difference was 4336 PSI with only one test. Very much within acceptable limits with the two systems. Again, telling me in no uncertain terms that my early data is spot on, and that how good PT 1 actually was! What a shame PT 1 died with its inventor!!!!!! Had I known this at the time I would have bought 5 units and lots of accessories to last a lifetime, but of course a lifetime here is not all that long, I have bought hundreds of lifetime supply of bullets over the years.......

I am truly addicted to running PTs..... These tell you so much about what is going on inside the rifle, sometimes it tells you more than you want to know, sometimes it even raises questions that you would have no idea about if you were not running them, sometimes its just plain nuts. Other times it is enlightening to the extreme, and you learn far more than you ever could by just checking your chronograph.

Will be back on the range today working more with the 500 B&M and hopefully do a 416 B&M Oehler/PT 2 comparison. Once done with the 416 comparison, then that is all the rifles I have hook ups on at that point. Then later, deciding what other studies I want to do, and what rifles/cartridges I want to hook up with.

I will start my blending projects again with the 500 MDM as well.... Something that absolutely could not be done without these units to measure progress......

Michael

We will be down in a couple of weeks looking forward to seeing new toy in action

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
We will be down in a couple of weeks looking forward to seeing new toy in action

No doubt Brent, we will be doing lots of interesting things... I have many projects for this winter.

The last few days I have been on the range, as normal. I have run some 500 MDM blending projects with IMR 8208 as a base, mixing in some H-322 and RL 10X. Running IMR 8208/RL 10X has not provided anything I can't already get with IMR 8208 alone, so discontinued that. Running some IMR 8208/H-322 now, and its promising, but in the end I don't think its going to give me anything extra. Next... ?? Maybe some H-4198 mixed in. Also, there are good possibilities that a blend of 3 powders might do well, once I learn the properties of basic two powder blends. In other words, once I learn the properties of IMR 8208 and H-322 together, then one might throw in a 3rd powder into the blend........ And so forth...... Just an interesting project is all.

Other news, I have a 458 Lott hooked up, running on the Oehler, and now Calibrated on a PT 2. Just got the calibrations done yesterday afternoon and the rifle set up. My plan is to test all the data I did a couple of years ago, I think in 2011 with the 458 Lott and 458 Win. I have already found that my RL 15 in 2013 is not the RL 15 I had in 2011!!!!!! This 2013 Keg of RL 15 is 100 fps slower, and pressures only running 44000 PSI..... I tested IMR 8208 loads and they match so far the 2011 loads.......... As I get more done 458 Lott, I will post it on a separate thread. I also plan on doing some 458 Winchester and 416 Remington work this winter as well. I will only be doing some of the new bullets we have, not old conventionals. Only looking at CEB and North Forks...........

Michael

Doc M,
Your powder blending experiments give me the heebie-jeebies.

Info on RL-15 lot-to-lot variation appreciated.
As long as the lot stays the same, I like RL-15 almost as much as I like the Hodgdon Extreme line of powders (same as Oz ADI).

RIP

Powder blending is very interesting to me. Kinda like in search of the "Holy Grail" of Powder mix.... Proving to be very elusive, and not so easy to come by however, but I am still in the extreme very early stages of searching, and learning as well......

I ran out a Blend yesterday in the 500 MDM... 75% IMR 8208 + 25% H-322.... Using some of the older obsolete 460 NonCons I was able to get to 2450 fps at 61000 PSI.... Its a very nice, extremely consistent load, very close extreme spreads in FPS and PSI... But it does not do any better than some loads I have with straight IMR 8208, which is a go to powder in the 500 MDM... Nice, but no real gains in any area yet.

I had big hopes for IMR 8208 + RL 10X, but that showed no gains early on. Currently using IMR 8208 as a base powder, a few more things I would like to try with it H-4198 and RL 7 being two of those. Then I will move on to another base powder, and probably RL 15 will do very well, its very low pressure in the 500 MDM, and add some faster burners, maybe H-322, and might run into some really good results, who knows? I still have a bit to do with IMR 8208 and H-322.. Next runs will be 50% mix of each. Sort of a slow process.............

RL 15 is a great powder, but it does have its UPS and DOWNS......... My RL 15, is not the same as your RL 15, even if it has the same lot number.....!!!!!!!! Thats right, even the same lot number, many kegs are different. I buy larger units, and when I can mix them all together so until that runs out, its the same.

In the old days of me doing 458 Lott and 458 Winchester I used RL 15 exclusively then. I would always run 82/RL 15 with various 500s in the Lott and would always get 2265-2285 fps with most anything.

In 2011 I ran RL 15 as one of the powders with the BBW#13s... 480/450 and 450/420s.... At the time, the RL 15 I was using would run right along with TAC and IMR 8208 used in the other tests, velocities up to speed. In this weeks tests, with my 2013 RL 15, every load tested was 100 fps LESS than the same loads in 2011........ That is quite a bit, and its already compressed pretty tight, I don't think I can make up that much velocity, and even if I could, it might be over pressure on the next 10 lbs of RL 15??????

I have also seen RL 10X the same.... I have seen some changes in other powders as well, but not as much as with RL 15 and RL 10X..... Recently had a new container of H-4198 that ran about 1 gr too hot, when compared to the previous container.... I mixed the entire batch of what I had....... Brought it back down to normal.......

Regardless....... MY POWDER--Ain't YOUR POWDER--And we best not forget that........

M

Michael

Just a short up-date-

I finally got the CEB 416 225 rapture lined out-

69gr H-4198 6rds @ 2970--20 in barrel--

I am set for a cull hunt after
Thanksgiving, 2 mature bucks and 6 does/ cull bucks and maybe an elk. Hope to have some good examples of NON-CON action when I get back from that, will try to get good pics.


PS Why in the world is Matthew shooting a bb-gun--you would think his wise old dad would outfit him properly.

Sean.....

Very Excellent pal! There is no doubt in my mind that on your hunt, you are going to get the attention of those bucks and does.... I bet pretty quickly too. Any predictions on how far one might run??? HEH.......

My good friend Mike... 450NE... He was really disappointed a couple of times last year once with the 50 B&M and then again with the 458 B&M, I forget the bullets, but he had one deer run "1 Inch" and another run "2 Inches" according to him.....

I kinda place my bets that you are going to be pretty close to the same.... ?????

Smoking in that little gun........ We have a 416 B&M fan that just returned from bear hunting, spoke with him yesterday, he was toting the 225 Raptor as well... Weather in Alaska got the best of them and he struck out, did not even see a bear until the last day........ Still No Bear.....


M

quote:

PS Why in the world is Matthew shooting a bb-gun--you would think his wise old dad would outfit him properly.

223 Test work 50 Raptor.....

Well, that sounds good anyway.............

Boys, I just checked the latest weather forecast;

quote:

Tuesday Night

Partly cloudy with a chance of snow and a chance of rain. Low of 32F. Breezy. Winds from the North at 15 to 25 mph.

Man, I better get ready.................

Really, like you are going to go out in the snow

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Really, like you are going to go out in the snow

Well I am ready to if I have to, and so is my rifle... HEH HEH............

hey

It takes a southerner to think that is Snow Camo---snow is white--thats muddy ground (with yellow marks?) camo

No Snow!

Cold, some ice laying around.........

Sean, the yellow marks simulate taking a leak in the snow.. Good Grief.. Think Man!

You Know, "DON"T EAT THE YELLOW SNOW".............

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
hey

It takes a southerner to think that is Snow Camo---snow is white--thats muddy ground (with yellow marks?) camo

Sean that is Southern Snow Camo!

Snows overnight, gone by mid-afternoons sun - in between numerous 'warming drinks' - a little mucking around while voiding the 'warming drinks' - and vola --- snow mixed with mud and 'former warming drink'....

Southern Snow Camo...

Michael....do you have any advise before I start forming brass for my 458 B&M ? I have Remington 300 RUM and Quality Cartridge head stamped 458 B&M brass.