quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
There goes my spending money...maybe won't be able to buy as much booze for Saturday night's party.

Max

Don't worry about the booze for Saturday night buddy--Your Credit is Good with Me!

If RIP shows up, we'll have the Medical, Mental, and Meplat topics covered by three doctors!

Michael

in the 458 SS and the 300gr Barnes can I run it full loads in new brass or do I need to back off some for the first fire-form load?

Cross

No man, hammer down, fill the case up! Run it full tilt with new brass, zero issues.

All the super shorts are so easy to work with in these respects.

M

I am only playing with a photo hosting option since my damned Photobucket has quit working, and no one from photobucket wants to answer the issue?????? But these have not been posted yet anyway.

Some new leather works from Henry--The B&M Leather Guy!

One of the Grayish Laminated stocks from Accurate Innovations. Since these photos
were taken the checkering has been completed. I have two of these, one will be going
on one of the rifles going to Winchester VA, the other is mine!

Michael,

That is the AI stock I've considered (without the black grip cap & forearm tip) for my 458B&M! Beautiful on a SS rifle. I do think it a bit expensive for a laminate stock, however.

Just the opinion of a fixed income retiree being raped without the decency of a kiss by the current government administrations of both CA and the USA.

Mike

Yes, it is not cheap, especially by the time you add the "B&M" specs, shadowline cheek & black tips.
I am not much of a laminated fan, but man, these stocks look damn good, and I have to say "I like Them". I like that color.

As for being raped and pillaged, yes, I know all too well, get ready for more, either bend over
or.................Else!

Michael

Oh hell yeah, there is more coming for sure.

I cannot rectify the electorate of CA, nor of the country, given the results of the recent political dust-up. I fear bankruptcy will become an all too common occurrence in the next few years.

This will have a direct impact on our sport and favorite pastime, in more ways than one. BOHICA

Mike
Yes, I am very concerned we are facing tough times ahead.

I used to be able to get a job at McDonalds and pay the bills, not anymore, can't even
pay the electric bill with that! Much less anything else! Anyway, probably couldn't get a
job there now, not qualified! HEH..........


I received yesterday 5 of Daryls rifles, all slated to go to Australia. Just to mention again, Daryl Lenkic is a friend of mine for several years now, B&M nut case, along with other things. Daryl is now a "Dealer" in Australia for B&M rifles, and CEB Bullets. He has a great website, very sharp fellow, and just all around fantastic guy! Visit that website;

http://www.meplat.com.au/

Michael

Hey Michael,

Daryl's website is pretty nice, very easy to navigate. It did raise a question though as I leafed through the website, "Has RSI fixed your pressure trace equipment problem yet?"

Jim

PT 1 may be finished and down for the count. There are no more replacement parts, they monkeyed with it a bit, and possible they got it sorted out, maybe, but I have not tried it yet. PT 2 they say is correct--but I have my serious doubts, the system has not worked yet, properly anyway, and I have not hooked it up to see. I more or less have been putting it off because of the frustrations with it. I have pretty much made my mind up that if these systems do not give me what I want I will go to the Oehler system. The Oehler I want is a bit over $10'000 and that is a lot of $$ especially with no way to recover, and mostly being done because of my interests. Most all the B&Ms have data now, although as years past, powder changes, and such, some of that data gets outdated. Barrel strain data is confirmed, and no real need for any more tests in that area, at least for several years. Then there is the question I had about blending powders that I only got started on, and want to continue. Then I want assurances from Oehler that I will get what I am after as well.

M

Michael

just got word, have LOTS of elle hide on the way.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
One of the Grayish Laminated stocks from Accurate Innovations. Since these photos
were taken the checkering has been completed. I have two of these, one will be going
on one of the rifles going to Winchester VA, the other is mine!

HMMM

Does AI make a SS stock?

Cross

Yes, they are now making a Super Short stock!

One of those laminated would look pretty spiffy on one.
Would add some weight however.

M

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael

just got word, have LOTS of elle hide on the way.

Lots of rifle slings, cartridge slides and all sorts of things!

I am supposed to have some on the way as well, and 7 buffalo too.

???
On the way they say!
M

Today I have been on the range. Mercedes has strep throat AGAIN and is home today. So I come off the range, there is a envelope on my desk addressed to "My Dad". Hmmmm? OK, I open it, there is an advert that has been torn out of the Bass Pro Shop flyer, a Pink Red Ryder Daisy BB Gun has been torn out and put in the envelope. Written above the Pink Red Ryder is this;

"Do You Know What I am Thinking? From Mercedes"


One of only a few times I was one step ahead of her! I had ordered one Last Week from Midway, it is already in the "Lab"........... and getting ready to go under the tree--With a Note "You'll Shoot your Eyes out Kid"

HEH HEH...........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Cross

Yes, they are now making a Super Short stock!

One of those laminated would look pretty spiffy on one.
Would add some weight however.

M

May have to check one out, sure would look cool on my 458 SS. A little more weight wouldn't be to bad, as long as it doesn't ruin the balance---

It has been a busy week I tell you! First, for the last couple of weeks I have been doing
my best to get a couple of rifles out of here. Was setting up and putting together a Remington of all things, in 338 RUM for a local South African buddy! He had to have one, so I set it up for him, we put a Accurate Innovations Pepper Laminated stock on it, of course I wacked that long 26 inch barrel off of it, and muzzle brake, to a nice workable 23 inches! I had it shooting a 200 ESP Raptor at 3240 fps, and that is all the bullet he will ever need! I was able to turn it over to him, get it out of here at the first of the week.

Also, been busy working hard on Sean's RSA PH's Marlin Guide in 50 B&M Alaskan as well! We have it ready, it was much easier to work with than the rat gun above. Sending it to South Africa with a pile of 375 gr BBW#13 Solids and 365 BBW#13 NonCons both at 2160 fps, and both in one hole at 50 yds, if I do my job proper. Is an excellent gun, stainless, 18 inch barrel, handles great. I think our boy is going to be very pleased.

But, all that is normal every week workings around here anymore. Come Thursday and Friday of this week, we had a great Visit with Wes from Accurate Innovations! Wes decided that he needed to come here to the compound, not only to just visit, but to establish some parameters for the B&M rifle stocks. He brought along two Pepper stocks built for 50 B&M and one for 458 B&M--which are interchangeable anyway, same barrel contour. These are the same stocks featured earlier here in the thread, but now are completely finished with hand checkering! We needed to establish bottom metal fit, finish, and measurement parameters so that there would be zero issues with all stocks made specifically for the B&M Series, and especially 458-50 B&M. We also did the same exact thing with the NEW SUPER SHORT stocks, and fit them to 458, 475, and 50 B&M and established exact parameters for those.

Now, Wes does not just live around the corner, it is a tough 7 + hour drive one way! He felt strongly that we needed to do this, even more so than I in the beginning, and when we finished, I was astounded at what we had accomplished. I was wrong, Wes was right, and spot on in his thinking on this. I also was able to learn a great deal from Wes concerning the stocks, fit and finish!

Many of you know, I have been with Accurate Innovations for some time now with the B&M Stocks. Now that Wes has taken charge of Accurate Innovations, I have literally watched them grow from a small time operation, that needed some guidance on certain aspects of fit, finish, and such, to a full fledged, well respected, stock making outfit that can not only compete with anyone, but that can produce a product that in my mind is far superior to all others in every way, in fit, finish, checkering, and appeal, and above all that strength for big bore applications. You can choose the wood you want, and the price you want to pay, wood is NOT CHEAP, and Wes has now taken Accurate Innovations to a place that we can all benefit, and trust that we have the finest product we can get, and looks DAMN GOOD TOO! I am very excited about Accurate Innovations and what they have accomplished, and what they will accomplish in the future.

Driving 7+ hours one way to do the things we did, shows a tremendous amount of dedication to get the stocks 100% right from the start, and that quality is of extreme importance to AI.

Accurate Innovations is a partner with B&M, and any and all wood stocks, now, and in the future, will be nothing but AI Stocks. It just does not get any better.

Here are some new photos of the 50 B&M and 458 B&M Gray Pepper Laminated stocks now checkered;













Wes has now perfected, after many months, the process for doing a B&M Super Short stock. He brought with him a Gray Pepper Laminated, along with a XX Turkish he picked for me. Neither had made it to checkering yet, but will. I kept the Gray Laminated, and now its installed on one of my 50 B&M Super Shorts, I will bring it to Dallas for you guys to play with. It is not checkered, and one could work it without checkering, but soon as we return from Dallas its on the way for the same checkering we did on the bigger B&M stocks above. I did not keep the Turkish Super Short Stock here, and no photos yet, but it is VERY NICE, and it is on the way for some fancy checkering. The Super Shorts come in at 6.25 lbs when stocked with the Winchester Ultimate stock, which was the only stock available for them until now. The Pepper laminated brings the weight up to 7.75 lbs even. The Turkish was lighter coming in at 7-7.25 lbs. The forend is standard B&M contour like found on the standard B&M series. All B&M stocks have the shadowline cheek, black tips that is short and grip caps, this is standard on all B&M stocks, and my preferences. Balance and feel of the Super Shorts with the laminated Pepper is still very good. I think it will be even better when checkered.












I want Wes to know that I really appreciate the effort, time spent, and dedication to his art, and it
is an art anyway you cut it. Also, we had a great visit, and I personally look forward to our next
visit as well!

Thanks Wes-----
Michael

Michael:

Really nice guns. Are the super short actions hard to find? I am really impressed with this little gun. How come no .416 B&M super short?

Dave

Thanks! I find WSSMs on gunbroker mostly. So far, not hard to find, but did notice that the price is inching up slowly. The last ones I bought a few months ago I was paying $650 plus. I always get the classic control feed guns. Yes, they have even impressed me this year, especially after the Australian buffalo event! And the things that Cross did in Africa with his 458 Super Short.

Going down to 416 caliber the bullets just start to get too long for the case and magazine, so I stopped at .458.

Hey Dave, I know you are a fan of that 400 BBW#13 Solid, 45/70, did you see the buffalo the fellow took with it? Just curious is all.

Michael

Michael,

Why not design a Super Short bullet for the 416. Non Conventional remember! A 250 to 300 grain might do nicely in a 416 SS.

I know someone who might be able to make a few. We need something to do!

Sam

The 410 bullets for the 405 win is perfect and better suited for functional impact velocity.
410 Super Short would be much better than the 416.

Good idea!

Sam

Yes, we could do a 416 Super Short bullet. No doubt about it. And yes Boomy, 410 would not be bad and could do such a thing.

My question is this:

What would either do, that the 458 B&M Super Short does not already do? I have that new 250 gr BBW #13 NonCon, tipped, at 2700 fps in 16 inches of barrel, .458 caliber.

We could do it, make it work, it would be good, but I just don't see it being worth all the effort and $$ involved to get there. And, in the end I don't see either .410 or .416 being more capable or versatile than the 458 Super Short.

My buddy Big John told me this morning he read somewhere in one of the gun rags that production of ammo for the WSSMs was coming to an end???? We already know that that Winchester has not made any WSSMs since New Haven, but I thought Browning was still making rifles??? Not sure about that. It would appear that in the near future some of the WSSM rifles might start drying up a bit, and at the very least prices increase for those that are available. Suppose I must get on the ball and get a few more in here soon.

M

I reckon I need another WSSM action--

Love my 458 SS, don't know if i will build another one of them or something else--but I will build another something SS and sure don't want to run out of actions--

The answer is in the bullets. 405 win bullets are about perfect for the super short platform and velocities. One of the same reason the 458 is so great is because of 45-70 bullets. The 405 bullets would gain a bit of SD and BC but yes the 458 is a better option because of more bullets available. I think the 410 SS could duplicate the 405 Win in a great light package. I think the 410 Super Short has been done before for the reasons stated. I guess you could single load longer rifle bullets as well. Modern packages delivering traditional velocities has a charm and a known output. Some people would love a 5.5lb lion medicine gun for boar stalking. Maybe someone can do a ballistic program to compare the flight path of a 300 grain 405 bullet vs a 300 grain 405 bullet and impact velocities at 50 yard intervals. Lets not forget the light 200 grain 410 pistol bullets for rabbits.

I am with Michael on this-

why strain at knats-

you can load the 458 SS down to pistol velocities or beat the shit out of 45-70's

nuff said

quote:

The answer is in the bullets.

It Always Is!

Boomy, I don't disagree at all, all your points are valid and reasonable, and you are correct on all counts. A 410 SS would be a good thing. A 416 SS would be a good thing, and not such a big issue to have proper bullets made. I would start at 225 for that, and in fact, when we get back from DSC, I have already spoken with Dan about a 225 gr 416 #13 NonCon. I want that same result that we have now with this extremely good 250 .458 #13.

And of course could do the same with .410.

Now, here is my deal, as with the 410 B&M, (which we have a reamer for in house) and with the 375 B&M, I will design the cartridge, easy to do, just keep going down from 458, so no big deal. I will get a reamer done and have it in house as well. But personally, I don't want to do a rifle myself. I have more than I can carry now! HEH...... But if someone wants to get serious, I will take the steps to get them there.

Me, I am going to stay with 458, 475, 50 on my Super Shorts. 475 and 50 have already proven themselves on buffalo, I bet you right now 458 Super Short can hammer them to the dirt too, especially with the bullets we have now. Piece of Cake! Or, I rather say, "Pie"----

Cross, If I send you my special "Pie", I am going to put a damned LOCK on it!!!!!!
No Messing With the "PIE"

HEH.......
M

michael

wilco-
out

No prob

I'm a scotch guy-even if I am irish

quote:

I bet you right now 458 Super Short can hammer them to the dirt too, especially with the bullets we have now. Piece of Cake! Or, I rather say, "Pie"----

May have to make the trip to OZ to do that--

and when I get back to S. Africa it wouldn't bother me a bit

Range would be an issue- 50-60 yds tops, but that shouldn't be a problem

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Dave

Hey Dave, I know you are a fan of that 400 BBW#13 Solid, 45/70, did you see the buffalo the fellow took with it? Just curious is all.

Michael

Yes I did indeed! I was hoping somebody would try the old 45/70 out on a buff with the BBW#13. Wow, they sure did work. How do you think they would do on an elephant with a side brain shot?

We've talked about this before but I think these new bullets like the BBW#13 turn marginal calibers into real killers.

Dave

i am going to argue terminology with you--

The new bullets-perform as designed-caliber has nothing to do with it. a 458 @ at x velocity and y weight does Z work--thats what we are doing-

The cartridge per-se is just a vehicle.

Your point is well taken but for the great un-washed out there I prefer not to use the idea of marginal calibers or cartridges--just use them as designed for their appropriate mission.

Michael, you're too kind.

Many times two heads, four hands and lots of rifles are the way to get things sorted out the very best!

Glad we could do it, and looking forward to great feedback for your cartridges and bullets from the DSC Show next month!

Perhaps a better way to state the issue would be, “Poorly constructed and designed bullets have marginalized otherwise perfectly usable cartridges. Properly constructed and designed bullets have allowed these same cartridges to perform to their full capabilities.”

Dave, Cross, and Jim, all good points made, and to be honest, merit and truth in each of those thoughts! My opinion is all.

One at a time for proper analysis.

Dave,

quote:

We've talked about this before but I think these new bullets like the BBW#13 turn marginal calibers into real killers.

I concur with this statement. I believe that in this particular case, the 45/70 is a very marginal "Cartridge" for buffalo work, and for sure elephant and hippo. It just does not have the capacity to have enough horsepower in most cases to be a "Knock Down and Dragg'em Out" "Engine". But, if we can put a superior terminal performance bullet in that case, that will ensure penetration to and through vitals, and do enough damage in between, then that "Marginal" engine can in fact do the job asked of it. Some of the problem with 45/70 is not only case capacity, but the platform in which it is based as well. Lever guns have limited pressure limits that absolutely have to be adhered to. Take the 45/70 and put it in a Winchester 1885 or Ruger #1, and you have a different animal. And to that effect, the bullet will just work even better. So while I consider the 45/70 marginal, it can be enhanced by proper bullet choice.

quote:

How do you think they would do on an elephant with a side brain shot?

I tested a long time ago a 420 gr Cast Performance on a side brain shot elephant--Of course this is after the head was removed from a big bull elephant that had been taken with a 458 Lott heart shot.

The 420 Cast Performance did in fact make it to the brain, and to the other side. It was severely sheared down to a point in front, and looked like a bullet fired from a handgun at that point. It made it JUST TO the other side of the brain, about 1-2 inches the other side. Had there been any angle at all, it could not have made it.

Will a 400 BBW#13 make it on side brain? I have 99.9% confidence that it would, and even at some angles. I would not take a marginal shot with it on a very large big bull elephant, just because of that .01% chance. On these smaller tuskless heads, that bullet will zip through. Possible exit sides on those.

If one found oneself hunting around in the bush, and had no choice or chance for something else, you would not come up on the extreme short end of the stick by any stretch.

Cross, Also correct on your point as well. These new bullets do in fact perform as designed, across the board in caliber, or cartridge. The cartridge is the engine, and vehicle for delivery of the payload, the bullet, from the various "Platforms" we use, the rifles. You are getting around to Bullet Choices, and once again, we know that all Bullets are NOT Created equal. Some perform better than others, simply because of design for a particular mission at hand. And always, choose an appropriate Cartridge, caliber, platform, and of most importance, Payload for a particular mission. In some cases however, like my guy Sam that did the buffalo with the Guide Gun, we had to make sure we had the right payload, for what we consider a marginal engine, or vehicle. This we did and it was successful because of the payload, and had little to do with the engine or vehicle at that point! Again, making your point exactly in another way I think. HEH..... Oh, and I was teasing about the "Pie"............

Jim, as always yet another proper way to look at things. One in particular I want to address with two perfect examples of exactly what you are saying.

quote:

“Poorly constructed and designed bullets have marginalized otherwise perfectly usable cartridges.

The very thing that began my search for the so called "Perfect Bullet". I had the engines, the various .500 caliber B&Ms. I had the "Platforms", the short Winchester M70s. But what I was coming up so very short of was "Proper Payload", or the Bullets I needed for the missions I wanted to embark upon, BUFFALO, HIPPO, ELEPHANT. This lead me and others on a grand journey of discovery. 1000s of hours of hard work, head scratching, documentation, and go again. All started because of a particular need of mine. Bullets available could in no way possible even begin that mission. Now in retrospect this was a very good thing for me, and for all of us in the end, which has taken us to levels never before thought possible, with the discovery of the BBW#13 Solids, NonCons, and has also taken North Fork with their own independent tests, that just happened along side our own, to now a far superior North Fork design. So this little journey of ours has been one of great discovery, and leaps ahead of where we were only a few short years ago. All because of proper bullets not being available for a particular need.

Now, the next great part of your analysis is this; As most know, I have NEVER had any respect for the various BIG ULTRA BORE CALIBERS! I think in the past, my opinion, basically "My Dick Is bigger Than Your Dick" is what the Ultra Bores was about, and had shit to do with performance!!! End of Story! To further my belief in this, and confirm it, was when I had my hands on the first 600 OK. My boy had Woodleigh FMJ, Woodleigh Softs, some cast bullets, and some other things, and I was not impressed at all. Hell, I had 45/70s that would penetrate deeper, and straighter, and out perform the crap out of that. Sam then later pitched up with his 577 Nitro, and it was the same old story. No thank you, I had better performing rifles, cartridges, and bullets--no need for an Ultra Bore giving piss poor performance. In all the previous Ultra Bore tests, there had never ever once been a solid, even the various many that Sam worked on, that would go beyond 50-55 inches, and you know we had a 325 gr Barnes Banded 458 Socom bullet that would do 50 inches dead straight. I was not impressed at all, and the more we tested various designs, that impression was growing stronger.

Then come along a 725 and 750 BBW#13 Sam whittled out with his bastard file! We started to test, Sam suggested lining up both boxes, I told him it was not needed. An Ultra had never made it past 55 inches, much less through an entire 64-65 inch box! Waste of time. But we did anyway and had both boxes lined up. For some reason I recall doing the shooting, fired the first round, Sam went down to reposition the boxes for round #2. He declared a pass through! I told him he was full of it and just messing with me. No, he was serious! I still did not believe, I went down to check for myself! Sure enough, bullet had passed completely through, dead straight. "FLUKE" I declared, had to have found a void in the mix, no way, can't happen! Round #2--Yet ANOTHER PASS THROUGH!!!!!!!!!!! Holy Smoking Horse Crap! We had just taken 577 Nitro to a level never before seen, or even heard of. Later tests with Docs 600 OK proved it even further, in which I had tests from 1400 fps to 2200 fps with the new 900 BBW#13 Solid and it's matching 825 #13 NonCon, and those two bullets gave some of the deepest, and most devastating terminals that have ever been done here. Now with #13s, these Ultra Bores had earned my respect, and now they will actually EARN their reputations in the field. Before, not so, now, they are the extremes and will actually do what has only been said of them in the past! Now they can Walk The Walk. They have been enhanced beyond anything they had ever had in the past.

Which follows your line of thinking exactly in my opinion.

All good analysis of where, what and how things have come about the last couple of years.

And, in the end, these little Super Shorts have benefited from this work as well. Before this year in Australia, I would have never proclaimed any of the Super Shorts proper "Buffalo" platforms. Today, that is not the case at all. You may see me carrying Super Shorts far more in the future than I ever thought possible, and I won't be undergunned! Nor will I come up short in any situation I might run into in the bush!

Michael

The rules have changed with the new technology.
Taking elephants out of the equation a .2 SD Non Con or Raptor at decent velocity is ferocious.
My question is how fast can a Super Short push a .2SD 235 grain .410" bullet? You need to add 70 grains to get .2SD with a .458" bullet.
Is the trade off of diameter to velocity between 410 and 458 worth a look?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The answer is in the bullets. 405 win bullets are about perfect for the super short platform and velocities. One of the same reason the 458 is so great is because of 45-70 bullets. The 405 bullets would gain a bit of SD and BC but yes the 458 is a better option because of more bullets available. I think the 410 SS could duplicate the 405 Win in a great light package. I think the 410 Super Short has been done before for the reasons stated. I guess you could single load longer rifle bullets as well. Modern packages delivering traditional velocities has a charm and a known output. Some people would love a 5.5lb lion medicine gun for boar stalking. Maybe someone can do a ballistic program to compare the flight path of a 300 grain 405 bullet vs a 300 grain 405 bullet and impact velocities at 50 yard intervals. Lets not forget the light 200 grain 410 pistol bullets for rabbits.

Boom stick

Maybe a "Pejsa ballistics" may help you. Google it, download it and use it.

Pyzda

Thanks.
I will check it out when I get to my laptop. I was thinking that the .410" 300 grain might be a better killer than the .458" 300 grain past 100 yards but the first 100 the 458 would have the lethality advantage.