Parker Hale African - 404 Jeffery - Still Deals Out There

Hello Folks,

There are still "Deals" out there if you keep looking.

I found this one while searching Proxy Bid for one of my favorite calibers. This would be my 4th 404J rifle. It came from an auction house in Wayco, TX.
Although I'd seen Parkers in 375 and 458 calibers, I never knew they were also offered in 404 Jeffery. As you can see in the listing, this rifle was Brand New,
but it had NO BOLT. With some guidance from Forum members here, I took a flyer and bought it. It hammered at $450 with only a 10% buyer's premium.




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I found a photo of a similar model Parker Hale to identify the type of bolt that I needed, and started searching, but I had no luck in finding an Original.



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However, I did locate and purchase from a friend. a "new" - "un-numbered" Oberndorf Military bolt body, for only $100.



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I proceeded to open-up the bolt face to 404J, and then alter the extractor to fit the larger cartridge.



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Finally I finish off the assembly with some Commercial Mauser parts from my junk drawer stash.



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I think it turned out pretty good.





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And, I had it shooting the very next day.

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Right out of the box, it was sighted perfect for the hunt.



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For your interest: I found this spec. sheet while searching the Internet for info on Parker Hale rifles.

I like your bolt much better than the original....very Mauser-ish!

What Biebs said.

Lightning has struck in the same place again.
Buckstix's place.
I'm am going to start calling him "Thor"
as he seems to be a regular god of thunder.

Rip
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quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I like your bolt much better than the original....very Mauser-ish!

Hello Biebs,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I also think the bolt looks much better than the original. It has a parkerized type finish and its more be-fitting a Big Game Rifle. I was fortunate to have a friend to sell me the bolt. He told me it was "new-old-stock" that was liberated from a parts bin in a Mauser Factory by a soldier in 1946.

I added some pictures of the bolt to by original post above.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Lightning has struck in the same place again.

Hello RIP,

Thanks for the reply.

RIP; some people say I'm lucky finding so many neat items. But, its actually my old age that makes me have to get up and pee 3 or 4 times a night. I can't bet back to sleep right away, so I surf the Internet for neat stuff, until I get tired.

Nice find! Were those made on Santa Barbara actions?

Very nice find.
I presume you have, or will, ditch those PH scope bases. While correct for period they were horrible bases. That is all we had here in NZ for many years before the American bases became available to us and I mounted a ton of scopes using them. The bases themselves were okay in terms of range for fitting most of the action types we had here but the stupid countersunk recess in the bases and cone shaped recoil stud in the bottom of the scope rings worked completely opposite to want you needed to ensure the rings didn't move on the bases. Especially so that the bases were mostly made from a rather soft alloy.

Cool. Well done

Very Nice- good job!!

Score! Buckstix, you find some of the coolest stuff. Now that I know how, though, I am happy to have my sleep

Very nice old rifle. You are lucky.

Deal of the century..Im betting any FN bolt would work, face opened up, but you got it fixed just fine...They made a number of those guns in 404 according to a article I read in an old Rifle or handloader magazine, but only a few of them every got to the USA for whateve reason..Much the same as the old FNs that mostly stayed in Africa and still are found in the game scouts headquarters...

I purchased a FN in 404 about 30 years ago in the old gunlist paper..Bought it for $800 and it was really clean...Hunted with it for 4 or 5 years and sold it for a bunch..and bought myself a 27 inch barreled original Mauser in 404..sold it also of course, that's what gun whores do..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Deal of the century..Im betting any FN bolt would work, face opened up, but you got it fixed just fine ......
..... and bought myself a 27 inch barreled original Mauser in 404..sold it also of course, that's what gun whores do..

Hello Atkinson,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes Sir ! .. You always remember the guns you shouldn't have sold .... and those you should have bought.

I remember back when I was just getting started in guns and didn't have any money. I'd spend months saving for a gun that I couldn't live without ..... and then sell it to get the next one, that I couldn't live without more. That's the definition of a young "gun nut".

Now in my old age, I'm a "Whore-der". I seem to keep everything.

Thanks y'all,

Now I understand the difference between a gun-whore (Atkinson) and a gun-whore-der (buckstix).
The latter buys and keeps what the former is selling, in an act of gunstitution.

Rip
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Parker Hale = not FN Action ( FN series 3000 or Supreme as it was known ) but Santa Barbara
built in Spain under licence from FN
Difference = metallurgy
Santa Barbara = alloy casting very very hard
So hard in fact it has to be annealed before drilling or modification and then rehardening is a issue. The Santa Barbera tended to become brittle with rehardening.

One size only = standard Mauser
Magnum is not a true magnum but a opened up Standard as is the FN Magnum.

The evolution of the FN action summarized roughly.

The genesis of the FN action starts in 1941 when FN made Mauser M98 actions available for sale in the USA.

The USA had not yet entered the war.

This I find odd and plan on researching it further because Belgium occupation by Nazi Germany was on 10 may 1940 and it included the FN factory in Herstal.

These were effectively FN built M98 military actions complete with charger humps, Mauser flag safeties and 2 stage military triggers.

Post WW2 finds FN without any Mauser tooling because the Nazi's removed it. Production was resumed however and by 1947 FN were producing sporting arms

1947: Military Bolt handle profile altered to accommodate scope mounting.

1948 The thumb cutout in the left action wall is omitted , this makes the action stiffer and quite desirable especially in single shot version
The vertical charger groove and hump is omitted and a low profile safety flag is added for scope mounting

1952: The stepped barrel is changed to a smooth profile barrel.

1953: The introduction of the “Magnum action”
This is not a true magnum action but a standard action opened up to accept the 375H&H and 300 H&H
The magazine box is enlarged , the bolt head altered and the feeding ramp opened up
The bottom metal catch is also moved to the trigger guard to facilitate easy opening and discharging of unfired rounds from the magazine

1957: The Rifle is now renamed as the De Luxe model.

1957: Introduction of the Series 3000 action ( later to be renamed as the Supreme)
The series 300 had a modernized sleek bolt shroud and a sliding safety on the right of the action . The trigger was also changed to a single stage trigger

1960: FN builds rifles for the US market ( Browning FN's with stocks distinctly made for the US market) The fore arm of the stock is heavier than the classic, the wrist is not as curved and the cheek piece is larger and heavier than the euro version.
The bolt stop is distinctly different so that it becomes a important identifier between FN's and FN Brownings and the trigger is Winchester model 70

1964: The De luxe phased out and only Supreme’s offered

The 404 offering was not common at all and by all accounts genuine herstal built FN 404’s are rare.

They were built on the 1953 action type and most were originally offered with the bolt shroud in white ( nickel plated) They all had flag safeties.
The barrel is stepped and the step is just in front of the short rear sight island with its 3 leafs
The stocks were classic FN with the typical checkering and a single recoil lug
The stock pattern and shape of the wrist section is classic FN. almost a old pirates pistol grip with a shoulder stock added on as afterthought This is very distinct to the point that if a original FN sits on a gun rack one can point them out a distance because of the stock pattern



As for FN's in 404 "sitting in "game scouts offices" Nope did not happen ! In 404 the FN was rare and expensive !

Nor to be rude but I take exception to your post and Your dead wrong Alf, there are a number of old worn out FN 404 sitting in game scout offices today and yesterday, mostly in Tanzanias Selous to the best of my knowledge but there are supposed to be a number of them in some wharehouse in Mozambique that George Hoffman tried to buy, and I was one that would help him finance the deal, but it failed..I have seen them in game scouts camps, Ive shot them with my ammo. I caught hell for offering a game scout two 404 cartridges for his gun. I tried to buy his gun but he chickened out! as he was afraid they wouldn't believe him when he said he lost it.. Its been recorded in more than a few gun articles by old time hunters..Two game scouts had them in Tanzania..Roy Vincent can verify that as well as his son I suppose, perhaps Saeed or anyone in Pierres camp that paid attention to such things. Most however had some Russian gun with bayonets on them..The 404s were left over from the good old days when white Africans maned the beautiful camps.. I have also read articles wherein FN furnished such guns to Zimbabwe elephant culling PHs early on..Harold Wolfe tells of borrowing a FN 404 from a game scout camp in Tanzania or Kenya early on in his life, as his or one of their other rifles failed on him..

Ray:

The nice thing about old Euro guns and gunmakers is that they kept records ! All of these guns have finite numbers there is for each a number one and a number "last" ! Some built in thousands some in merely as low handfuls.
Some were numerous based on demand some actually not numerous. I often stand surprised to see exactly how few of a caliber Mauser, Jeffery, Rigby etc actually produced.

Not only that African colonial countries were habited by low numbers of "white people' who administered and recorded events dutifully as course of government and in most cases this information is available !

Game department armouries in Africa were stocked and every piece recorded by number it was the law of the land !

One can today with permission for instance go the Skukuza in the KNP and access in their library and archive all the proceedings and minutes regarding procurement sensus data etc.
Every elephant shot, every lion and buffalo dutifully recorded in reams of data. I have seen with my own eyes !
The Director of the SA Parks Board as well as their Director of public relations were friends of the family and we had access to the KNP via the back door as guests of the organization. I even dated his Daughter at one point


We can for instance see exactly to the cent was expended by government departments and on what ! As an example when Ron Bester wrote is master work on the Boer War arms of both the British he could from old Government archives (Hansard of the old ZAR Volksraad) see exactly to the number how many rifles, pistols swords lances, bullets were procured by the Boers and from whom.

As to guns sitting in warehouses:

Yes I can attest to this ! But were they FN's ? There were many many old rifles , most rusted and derelict and judging from the pictures way before the era of the FN we are discussing !

You must not forget I lived there ! We hunted Rhodesia and holiday'd in Mozambique before it fell.

We had family who lived and farmed in Rhodesia . My wife's grandfather lived in Northern Rhodesia and my father in law was born in Livingstone.
Over years I rubbed shoulders with many old Rhodesian pro hunters and farmers and though one thinks of them as many at the hight of the Rhodesian empire so to speak there was only 270,000 white people.


I shot my first Buffalo in the valley with a FN 9.3 that I had bought from Johnny Augustyn of Veld and Vlei in Prtoria
He was the agent for FN sporting arms and FN ammo.
When Mozambique fell all whites guns were confiscated. 1974 saw whites fleeing the country and they got out with only the clothes on their backs.

After the war of independence and following civil war in Mozambigue the South African Task force of the SAPD were tasked with de arming the population by seeking out cashes and stored confiscated guns, these were all blown up and many photographs of many fine old mausers and classic guns were featured in Man Magazine. The OC of Special task force at the time was a friend of mine and he showed me photographs of these guns that they blew up. At the close of the Civil war and our support of Renamo I served in a 6 week deployment in a military seaborne operation in Mozambique.

So back to the FN 404 Jeffery:

Collectors will tell you they are rare ! I tell you they are rare ! I know this because for years I have sought to buy one and have failed. A good friend of mine was lucky he found one but without its original stock.

One of the most prolific collectors of the FN was Basjan Strauss in Pretoria North He was a teacher at a local high school and ran a small gunshop that was open only one some afternoons. ( I dont know if he is still alive or what happened with his collection)

FN Introduces their High power rifle in 1959 as the Safari grade. This is the series in which the 404 is offered.

The high Power rifle series is built not only on FN actions but they build them on Sako Vixen (L461) and Sako Forrester ( L579 ) actions for the smaller and medium calibers.

They offer the 24 inch 'medium barrel" rifle in "magnum length" in 12 " magnum length" calibers and this includes then the 404 Jeffery as well as the 458 Win and 10,75x 68.

The action is actually a standard length opened up Mauser M98 with solid sidewall and charger slot and hump omitted but with a Mauser Bolt shroud and low profile bolt safety wing. The bolt hand is bent down and profiled for scope mounting. The bottom metal cover is located in the trigger guard and the magazine only holds 3 down.

In 1961 they add the medallion grade and olympian grade ( both engraved versions) These were fancy grade rifles.

The Original Safari grade had a 3 leaf rear sight one standing and two folding ) this was dropped in 1963 in lieu of a folding rear sight setup that allowed for scope mounting.

Now all of the 404 FN's that I have seen , handled and some owned by friends who collect and shoot FN's fit this description.

Thus all of them were made between 1959 and 1963 ! We are talking 3 to 4 years only !

Not only that ammo was a issue ! Britain was seriously pissed at Rhodesia and there was a embargo, no Brit ammo and to boot by the time FN quit making the high power Kynoch and a done deal !

Finding and owning a original 404 was the holy grail of classic guns but they were relatively rare and ammo was even rarer !


I venture that more FN 458's were to be found in game departments then 404's and the majority 404's in hands of game departments were mostly Vickers rifles.

Now FN made only 88,000 high power rifles total from 1959 and 1975 ( this is for all calibers )

I don't doubt what you say for the most part but your facts in part are absolutly incorrect, in that today their are a few 404s FN in the black game warden camps and they are packing them around behind the hunters and have no ammo for them..Ive seen them, Ive fondled them, tried to buy them, and even fired one of them. They are in terrible condition and Ive been told they were issued to the white Game Depts at one time. I was told that by various PHs..

The warehouses Im referring to had all manner of English rifles, double square bridges 404 FNs WRs, and Hollands etc. and we were interested in mostly big bores that George wanted to buy through legal channels. I think these were seized weapons by some dictator and yes they were in terrible condition, worm eaten wood and rusted metal, but George felt some were salvageable, and of course price had to be workable.

I see no reason to discuss it further at this point, but I would appreciate it if you would take the time to research it with your kinsmen/friends in high places in Tanzania or whatever..I also recall a conversation with a couple of PHs that they would load up a couple of rounds of those 404s with a full case Bullseye or its equivalent and leave them lying around so some Game Scout would steal them to poach elephants with, and kabooom! Was said to be a fairly broad practice at the time, dunno just saying it was part of the 404 conversation we had.

Black rangers were mostly issued with service 303's ( that is if they were issued with rifles at all) For the most they carried a axe. Seeing a game department constable on a bicycle armed only with a axe was commonplace!

A good friend of mine was a District Commissioner in Northern Rhodesia and he had a government issue 404 but it was a Vickers.

Ammo was scarce so he hardly shot it. Petrol for the government issue Land Rover was rationed to a few gallons per month so he used a issue bicycle.

He had two "Bicycle boys" one carried a pump for his bicycle and the other a stick with a fork on one end and a hook on the other. One side was to push the bike behind the saddle when he went uphill and the other to act as a brake when he went downhill.

Bicycle boys?

RIP: Yes Different times ! Colonial Africa !

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Nor to be rude but I take exception to your post and Your dead wrong Alf, there are a number of old worn out FN 404 sitting in game scout offices today and yesterday, mostly in Tanzanias Selous to the best of my knowledge but there are supposed to be a number of them in some wharehouse in Mozambique that George Hoffman tried to buy, and I was one that would help him finance the deal, but it failed..I have seen them in game scouts camps, Ive shot them with my ammo. I caught hell for offering a game scout two 404 cartridges for his gun. I tried to buy his gun but he chickened out! as he was afraid they wouldn't believe him when he said he lost it.. Its been recorded in more than a few gun articles by old time hunters..Two game scouts had them in Tanzania..Roy Vincent can verify that as well as his son I suppose, perhaps Saeed or anyone in Pierres camp that paid attention to such things. Most however had some Russian gun with bayonets on them..The 404s were left over from the good old days when white Africans maned the beautiful camps.. I have also read articles wherein FN furnished such guns to Zimbabwe elephant culling PHs early on..Harold Wolfe tells of borrowing a FN 404 from a game scout camp in Tanzania or Kenya early on in his life, as his or one of their other rifles failed on him..

Sorry to burst your bubble here but those Mozambican safes were "raided" in the mid-1990's. A good friend of mine had pick of the bolters in both the Beira and Maputo armouries and there was exactly 1 (one) FN .404 in there. The rifle is now in a collection in Brisbane.

By the way, all the double rifles in those safes were traded by the Mozambican government for a boatload of potatoes with one of the Eastern Bloc countries in the late 1970's.

As someone who has a bit of a soft spot for FN Mausers(I also own one or two) I tend to be on the lookout for them. I know of another FN .404 here in Pretoria (Alf has already mentioned the owner's name) and the aforementioned ex-Moz .404. And that's it. They are generally considered very rare birds by most knowledgeable folks here in Africa. .375's, .458's and 9,3's pop up far more regularly.

quote:

I like your bolt much better than the original....very Mauser-ish!

I do too. And on a "DGR" your ex-military "J" shape bolt is the better profile than the Parker Hale factory provided profile.

I also picked up one of these at an auction, although the description was a Parker Hale 1100M lightweight. While the gun is in fine shape, I am a little surprised about a detail I missed before purchase.

People discuss the differences in mauser actions: military, large ring, small ring, FN no thumb cut, "C" vs "H" ring, etc. Cast and forged receivers.

Well, it seems that not only is my version a cast Parker Hale, but the receiver lacks the bolt collar (?), i.e. no "C" or "H" ring at all, nothing. No collar at all, just the bolt lugs and a large gap between them and the barrel face. What really drew my eyes to it was the obvious extension of the receiver barrel threads into the area which would be occupied by the "C" ring.

The receiver and barrel have British Nitro Proof marks.

I'm assuming with the proof marks this gun is safe to fire, but the proof mark on the bottom of the barrel is 16.5 tons. From what I can tell that is only 33,500 PSI and the 404J is a 50,000 PSI cartridge.

What are your thoughts about this gun?

Will it get the job done as a basic utilitarian rifle or is it piece of crap and I wasted my money?

The receiver with no "C" ring.
IMG_0926 by D Frank, on Flickr
Proof marks:
IMG_0932 by D Frank, on Flickr
Barrel marks:
IMG_0933 by D Frank, on Flickr

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:
............or is it piece of crap and I wasted my money?

Very likely. I think you should sell it to me.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by A7Dave:
............or is it piece of crap and I wasted my money?

Very likely. I think you should sell it to me.

Ha!

Got my reloading gear and loaded up a few rounds. They feed nicely. Loading the rounds initially, they hung up. Looking in the magazine, I noticed the former owner had glued what looked like a piece of rubber onto the front of the magazine. Nice little bullet nose protector.

Noticed the bolt knob had a proof mark on it also.

Still, has anyone come across a mauser action without the C/H collar?

Hello A7Dave,,

I just checked my rifle. It has the "H" ring receiver.



It also has the same proof at 16.5 tons as your rifle.



I'm not sure how the "Tons" coorelates to pressure. Being British, it would be metric tons, so metric equals 36,960 pounds.

The Saami tables I found show 49-53 and 45-46 thousand pounds. Yet the 303 Britich rifles are also marked 16.5 tons and show the same saami pressures of 49-53 and 45-46.

Thanks Buckstix. Very interesting. Thanks for the pictures. Looks like my rifle follows yours for the proof at 16.5 tons.

Several parts companies sell "parker Hale" cast receivers that still require milling, but I can't see a picture inside the front rings - I suspect mine was made from one like those by PH.

buckstix

Just need a packet or two of this stuff to go with your Parker Hale 404

British Proof done with the crusher cage measuring at the case base ie a modified bolt face and then actually measuring bolt thrust.

SAAMI measures theirs by a cage mounted on the side of the chamber with the cage plunger
( anvil) resting against the case wall.

Two different methods two different values.

Tons on British Proof is imperial tons (per square inch).

As, I was pretty much the last generation on 'Brits' to be taught the imperial system, here it is: 2240 pounds to each ton, made up of 20 hundredweight expressed as 'cwt' each of 112 pounds expresses as 'lb'.

16 ounces expressed as 'oz' to 1 pound, 14 pounds to 1 stone expressed as 'stn' and to complete the division 8 stones to 1 hundredweight. And 7000 grains expressed as 'grn' to each 1 pound.

So bullet and service charge weight on earlier British proof is expressed on rifled arms in grains and in smooth bore guns charges of shot in ounces and fractions of ounces with cartridge length in inches and fractions of inches.

Thus 1 1/4 ounces or 2 1/2 inches not 1.25 inches or 2.50 inches.

Metric tonnes (and for bullet weight metric systems grammes) ave and had no usage in British Proof at any time. When Britidh Proof 'converted' to the European CIP system the pressure measurements then became expressed in bars expressed as 'bar'.

Hope it helps.

enfieldspares

Also when GB went with CIP they adopted the CIP "method" ie a drilled chamber and case with the Piezo gauge directly in the gas stream.

The method eliminates much of mechanical bias that was part of the historical methods.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
buckstix

Just need a packet or two of this stuff to go with your Parker Hale 404

Hello eagle27,

Thanks for the reply.

I have a similar box with a Rhino on the front.

Would you care to sell yours?

What brand ammo came in that interesting box? I've got a couple of the Parker Hale boxes, still some original ammo in one. Could be tempted to part with one.

Also have a letter from Norma to Roger Hale at Parker Hale about the ballistics of the 404 ammo that Norma made for them. I instigated this back in the late 70's through the gunshop who handled the sale to me of the Mauser Type A 404 I bought along with a couple of boxes of PH/Norma FMJ ammo and five boxes of Kynoch SP ammo. The old gunshop owner came from England and knew Roger Hale personally so sent off an enquiry on my behalf as to whether Norma had any components left for reloading the 404. Roger Hale sent over a copy of the reply he received from Norma. Quite an historic sort of document I suppose. Of more interest to me at the time was that unfortunately Norma did not have any components available for reloading.
Luckily a German friend brought me out some new RWS cases and I managed to import a bunch of RWS FMJ bullets from Australia to feed my 404.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
What brand ammo came in that interesting box? I've got a couple of the Parker Hale boxes, still some original ammo in one. Could be tempted to part with one.

Hello eagle27.

Thanks for thhe reply.

This is a box from B.E.L.L. and it contained unloaded brass. I display it with my 404 rifles when I do teaching shows in the area. I'd sure like to have one of thoses Elephant boxes for my display.

I really like 404s.

Stunning collection
Love the Manton !

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
What brand ammo came in that interesting box? I've got a couple of the Parker Hale boxes, still some original ammo in one. Could be tempted to part with one.

Hello eagle27.

Thanks for thhe reply.

This is a box from B.E.L.L. and it contained unloaded brass. I display it with my 404 rifles when I do teaching shows in the area. I'd sure like to have one of thoses Elephant boxes for my display.

I really like 404s.

PM sent.

Loaded up some Barnes 400 grain TSX and shot my new purchase. Never shot anything bigger than a .375 and I would say it was a heavier "push" rather than the sharper shock of my 375. Really nice.

Just for interest, here is a picture of the proof mark on the underside of the bolt knob. Cool stuff.

PHBolt by D Frank, on Flickr