Ed,
Made two roll crimping tools today, one for you and another one for a gentleman who asked for.
I will ship them next week.
"Two caliber" slugs will be available in a couple of months. I'll send some for testing at high speed.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Thankyou and have a blessed Christmas.Ed

Well I tested some 3.150 brass cases today with 90 grs of Sr 4759 , over the powder plastic wad, card wad and a 900 gr .620 brass bullet in Lefteris's plastic sabot.no crimp. Used the rifled NEF gun for testing. chrono yet but Really wasn't anything like the 12gaFH loads I'm used to. Used one case with a .50 BMG primer and the other a bushed 209. I expected much more power. Felt like a std 3" slug load. Cant imagine thesevwent over 1500 fps. May need some sort of crimp. Not possible to load more than 90 gr in these cases as OAL Exceeds what can be cycled through the Nova. Ed/ Lefteris any suggestions?-Rob

Rob- Most testing I did with 4759 was with
600 and 730gr fullbore lead in plastic.. In 3" plastic case
got 730gr to 1800 in 24" barrel, The pressure test lab
got over 1900 in 30" barrel. The 600 gr over a
100 fps faster.

In brass 3" case using fullbore 600gr lead slug
and one seal and one thin wad got
in 105gr of 4759. About 2050 with 600gr, long bbl.

With 900gr and 90gr of 4759, my formula shows
about 1550 max. To go faster more powder needed.
Or use the shorter sabot and 750 gr slug,
To get more in is a problem with sabot, card
and seal length with that long sabot and 900gr.
His sabots I have here seem tough enough, I didn't
need the card, Leave it out and add powder also.

I just took one brass case here at 3" long with his shorter
sabot with 750gr, and one BPI powder cup seal,
with sabot sticking out .15", to match your length.
I got 105 gr of 4759 in it..That 3" case was one of
the bmg based ones shortened. If using RMC case only
about 95 gr due to thicker base. All in all
a little lighter slug, shorter sabot seems better.

Without a crimp, with either type of brass
cases, using sabots of any kind, you need a real
tight fit, to get 100% clean burn.
By real tight I mean, I push sabot/slug in
with my press. I get them tight enough
so no crimp needed against the plastic sabot.Ed

ED- I'll try the shorter 750gr sabots and press the sabots into place tightly. I saw some unburnt powder but not alot. I do think the problem was in the lack of a crimp from the way it acted. -Rob

Rob,
In addition to what Ed wrote.
With a .629 slug in place outer sabot diameter is .735. Putting a .620 bullet in, sabot diameter is reduced at .726. If your gun has a groove diameter of .729-.730 maybe those extra .009 might be needed for a tighter fit and ignition resistant for complete powder burn. Just a thought.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris- I am going to offset the machine to make some .629 bullets. May need to start with larger brass rod. The NEF actually measures a bore diameter of .731. I'm going to compress the sabots and try the larger diameter bullets and see how it works. I'm also going to try some of my 1000gr Darwins seated flush in the case for a comparison.-Rob

Rob,
If you can find metric brass stock purchase some rods with 16mm diameter. They are actually 15.97 to 15.98mm so only machining the nose and cutting to length needed for making .629 bullets in a hurry.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris- Thanks for the tip. I'll check a few suppliers for 16mm brass rod. The nice thing about .620 bullets is the fact that you use 5/8 brass rod and have minimal wastage.
I'll make some prototype bullets from whatever stock I have laying around on my small CNC lathe and test things out. -Rob

This slug does not need a special "hollow nose" roll crimping tool to assemble.
Simply put the stabilising wad and sabot in place and roll crimp with a standard roll crimping tool. Then the slug is put in and locked in place by pushing it in the hull with the crimping head, without spinning of course.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris-- I received crimper. Thankyou, it is beautiful
work.You have some great machinery.

IN above picture, is that base you push slug into, like the
locked on base green ones on the US-S slugs, or just the
discarding sabot ones? Ed

Ed,
Your welcome. Don't forget to put some oil on a cotton stick and lube the inside of the roll crimper, where it contacts and rolls down the hull, every 10 to 15 crimpings.
The slug in the above photo is a modified US-S 970 (longer ogive and smaller meplat) that weights 910grains but use the shorter sabot of the US-S 570. Green wad is also used so that the slug locks in and securely held in place. It is loaded in a 2.75" hull.
It more has the looks of a cartridge round than the typical slug shotshell.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.



Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.



Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy, where regular deer/hog shooting
occurs, in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.



Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also shown is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman and a sabot with hard cast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also usable are 575 cal Dixie Gunworks slugs.
Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.



Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use.Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate.And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs and my guy can make many,
many more if you all need them whether for 585HE, 577NE,etc,
rifles, or in sabots if we can find some.ED

ROBOGUNBUILDER,

I have thought of doing what you are trying to do with the Supernova, although I was planning on just getting the most I could out of 3 ½” plastic hulls and 600 to 730 grain full bore slugs. Working with it I also found that it is very limited re OAL compared to most 3 ½” chambered pump guns. SAAMI spec for a 3 ½” folded shell is 3.155. There is no spec for a rolled 3 ½” shell, but a 3” rolled shell is .105” longer (SAAMI) than a folded shell. There doesn’t even seem to be enough room for even that extra .105” in the Benelli for a properly rolled 3 ½” hull. I would still like to build up a dangerous game shotgun on this platform using a 3 ½” chambered heavy slow twist barrel, but frankly I don’t have the skills. I did acquire a few blank barrel extensions and the magazine tube rings. If you would like a couple of extensions to work with and tube rings I would be happy to send them to you. If you build something up I would pay my way for a duplicate.

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.

First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.



Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
3.5" RMC cases.



Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........



Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed

Some more slug setups and ideas.

First is the USS brand that European cartridge has without
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is accurate in rifled barreld as its locked on base,
counterpartin smooth barrels.Up to 750 gr, One inch at 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.





2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.





3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
are too hard to fire fullbore, must be in plastic.
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.





4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.



Question for Lefteris. What plastic are the discarding
sabot petals, on your sabots made with.Ed

Ed,
The material we use for the sabots of the US-S slugs is high density polyethylene.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
They look like Berdan primed. Run from
36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.



Second is a paper case clad with
thin brass nearly to the top.



Third is picture of paper case crimped into
the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
pictured above with a Dixie slug.



Some eperimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
that have been available, for reloading guys. That
the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
had to work with.

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
Can be loaded faster.

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
than witches ---, and no time.
I am trying to find who makes these.There are
about 2000 injection mold companies in US.
Some wonder why we experiment with relatively
lighter 12ga slugs/sabots as opposed to 1000gr
or 1500gr stuff.Well it comes down to 98% of
the readers on the 103 forums are using lighter
guns and hunting deer, hogs, etc, and they just
need accurate/affordable stuff to reload with.Ed

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
seal, and forced it on for alocked fit..



Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them.Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.



Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.



Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

quote:

Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

One gauge.!.!.!

Ed…

You’re too valuable to the big bore community…need to see if you can get a volunteer to touch one off in that….

I'll probably never get to that one, stop at 2 bore.

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.



Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference betwwen the two..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent two
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.



Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.



Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

ED- Where did you get those locked on bases?-Rob

If you referring to the green bases
they came from Lefteris who sent a few
slugs and base combos locked together when he
first made them up 3 years ago.
I tested them at high speed for him. They are
the US-S slug. ED

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.



Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.



Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.



Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.





Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.



4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

Great job.

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.







Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.



Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the
"Lethal" and the "destructor".




Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of geyying slugs out of a shotgun caliber, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs...


Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.






Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686", from Lymam mold
like in picture, that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.




Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed