Ed- Yes its the Mercury Magnum model. Its the organ donor for a pair of ER shaw 12Ga or Pac-Nor barrels rechambered to 12GaFH. I agree, it looks extremely well made and as strong as any double rifle boxlock I've seen. I would see absolutely no issues with running 36KPSI loads in this beast. Tomorrow I will be getting down to dimensioning it.-Rob

Rob- Your biggest fun will be doing the ribs.
Well as Karl mentioned above there is a whole
bunch of different brands out there that can have
heavy 12ga rifled barrels put on. And maybe
have a few redone into 8 gauges. I've seen over the
last 3 years over 500 of the heavier doubles
sold on AA and GB as I keep watch looking for
a Tonolini.Ed

Ed- I'm only 150 miles from Butch Searcy in Boron and If I get stuck I know who to call. I am excited about this project and asked the guys on the Gunsmithing and Double Gun building section on Nitroexpress for their help and advice. Yes, the ribs will be fun, but I gotta learn sometime and I will learn to do it right! -Rob

I have seen parts for the ribs on doubles
in Gunparts catalog. I wonder, students at
Trinidad need projects, maybe do a whole
bunch of these for us nuts.We'd find others
and get the bbls, if some of those guys
needed a projects. Ed

Rob,
Glad you settled on the Zabala.
Much better overall than the BSS.
Your double 12GaFH will be more potent than an H&H 700 NE, afterall, and I know H&H would not build one of those on a 12ga action.
Wish I still had the one bought from John Wall Mercantile in 1985.
You are in for some higher learning now!

Struck out on whitetail again in the rain today, even though wearing my batting gloves. I fired one shot at a moving doe at 200 yards with my 50-cal ML.
When I was wiping the rifle down this evening, I found the front scope base was loose.
Careless. Even a popgun like a 50-cal muzzleloader should have its scope bases properly secured. Next time open sights on the muzzy or bust!

Here is a second Mossberg 835 setup.
9.5 pounds with no ammo, no lead in the stock, with accessories as shown, then add
+4 rounds in the magazine
+6 rounds on the butt carrier
+4 rounds in the shorty side carrier
+1 round in the chamber ...
15 rounds of 3.5" plastic hull and 1401-grain lead Darwins:
This adds about 4 pounds, gets it up to about 13.5 pounds.
The only problem is that after each shot it kicks harder.

quote:

The only problem is that after each shot it kicks harder.

RIP- Have to agree with you the Zabala is a much stronger gun than the BSS. Id go Shoelump on it in a minute except I dont own a furnace big enough to braze the parts together. Guess its monoblock time! The Double Rifle project is a new phase for me. I think its gonna be fun!
Nice 835!-rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
RIP- Have to agree with you the Zabala is a much stronger gun than the BSS. Id go Shoelump on it in a minute except I dont own a furnace big enough to braze the parts together. Guess its monoblock time! The Double Rifle project is a new phase for me. I think its gonna be fun! When you gonna Chrono some of those 1085 gr Darwins? Use 220gr of H50BMG. My guess is 1300-1500fps. We will see how close quickload really is. -Rob
Nice 835!-rob

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Jeffe- It sure isn't efficient is it. It's like horsepower it takes about 500 to go 200 mph and about 1000 to go 250!-Rob

Not necessarily, my buddy Jack has been running over 300 mph on about 500 hp in Neb II and III.

http://www.yacoucci.com/

Congrats on the 12 GFH, it is truly in a class of it's own!

This may be true.

I believe the principle he was trying to get across is that for your friend to go 400 MPH would take an enormous gain in HP.
Much closer to double than a 33% increase.

Rob,
Mossy 835's ain't nice! They BAD!
I will shoot your load in my NEF-er ... even without the Vais brake, but with a 25-pound bag of shot.
Might have sped me up a bit if I had a single screw-on 50BMG rim ...otherwise I will have to make one myself or improvise a new priming technique.

Lessee, what was that thread spec?
.616"-26.7tpi ???

quote:

what was that thread spec?

Get yourself one of these RIP.....hours of entertainment awaits..

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0831128011

RIP- I'll put one in the mail! Had 75 MPH windstorm here and spent last two days re-tiling the roof. 25lb Tiles grew wings! You wont need the sandbag just hang-on and suffer!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
RIP- I'll put one in the mail! Had 75 MPH windstorm here and spent last two days re-tiling the roof. 25lb Tiles grew wings! You wont need the sandbag just hang-on and suffer!
Update- made a loading ring for you and will mail out tomorrow.-Rob

Rob
heat treat the zabala... its huge, but its soft. you got hardness files? ... its REALLY SOFT... I even looked hard at them, as ruzt maay know, but they bend in 10ga form

Mac,
That large print Machinery's Handbook ... OOH!

Rob,
The screw-on 50BMG ring ... OOH! Thanks!

jeffe,
That is the first "soft" accusation of the Zabala 10ga SXS that I have heard, should be interesting to hear what Rob thinks of that.

And my latest discovery is that a 20-gauge MEC Super Sizer (used for sizing the brass&steel bases of plastic hulls) can be used to crimp the necks of 12GaFH cases, very easily.

It will even crimp the necks of those thick brass RMC 12ga cases if you lean on it hard enough. It opens up to about .950" max and closes down to about .685" min. I bought one for about $80 at the local mercantile.

quote:

That large print Machinery's Handbook ... OOH!

Yeah...well my 20/15 x 20/15 eyes still need some sort of extraocular device to read the LARGE print...that's how much info is packed into that reference. That's the latest edition as well.

Jeffe/RIP- Gotta say that I never heard anything bad about the Zabalas being too soft. Been corresponding with a guy in England whos built doubles on them and he has had no hardness issues. BTW I think I can fit barrels 1.16 at the breech to 1.1 inch at the muzzel on the Zabala action. Plan to keep it to same power levels as the NEF though. At those levels I think soft steel would work just fine. No plans to hotrod a double rifle of any sort.-Rob

Jeffe is that the modern 213M Zabala? I only ask as the consensus is 60's/70's era spanish guns were a lot softer in general,and Zabala does have these older guns still floating around. In fact the Zabala Libar was noted for being wrecked by steel shot when it first came into use.

The new magnum with its 1200bar rating for steel shot use etc, I thought should be a tougher deal.

Karl.

The Zabala I have is a G-1032 model, 10ga, 3.5 inch . Jeffe are you refering to the action or the barrels?-Rob

The Mercury isn't a 213 model.But is of good steel
and with our brass cases, and a minimum chamber so
the cases take up their share of the thrust like
big bore rifles do, you can run 20-22k loads.
A 12k load in a plastic case will have 5200 lbs
thrust where the plastic takes up very little of the
thrusr.A 22k load in our case about 7500 lbs thrust
as our case takes up a third of the thrust.
So it isn't a huge difference or like 2-3 times
as much. Just a little increase which that action
will handle fine. It has a Greener crossbolt
that is built well and works fine. I fired a couple
of magnum 10ga slugs in one and they extracted
easy, fell out of chamber.

Zabala built guns with and without Greener crossbolts.
The E213 Magnum in the pic on their site "doesn't"
have a crossbolt. It is a double lump locking action
that is alloy and treated. Same with barrel.I think
the Zabalas and other big Spanish ten gauges with crossbolts
are about as strong as the 213 without crossbolts.
If you run 12GA FH at 22k it is same as same type of gun
and metallurgy, firing a 577NE at 36-40K.And many 577NEs/600NEs
are shooting fine after years of use....Ed

Sorry my mistake, thought you had the same one I did Ed.

Karl

quote:

... I think I can fit barrels 1.16 at the breech to 1.1 inch at the muzzel on the Zabala action. Plan to keep it to same power levels as the NEF though. At those levels I think soft steel would work just fine. No plans to hotrod a double rifle of any sort.-Rob

Rob,

Excellent! Some preliminary specs shaping up!

The Zabala 10Ga I bought in 1985 had no Greener crossbolt. It had 32" barrels and weighed 12 pounds. I cut 8 inches off the barrels and installed rifle sights on the rib. It weighed 10.5 pounds with 24" barrels.
As big as it was, it looked a bit stubby then, but balanced well.
I played at shooting 3.5" Federal Foster slugs with it. Seems it would do 4-inch 4-shot groups at 25 yards, which was surprisingly good for a mere whack job.
I also shot doves with it. It swung well.

It seemed to be as hard as nails in action and barrels.

I still have that cut-off length of twin muzzles and will have to dig it out of a box to use as a paper weight on my plans for a 12GaFH double.

Lead the way Rob!

I will try to do better than merely duct taping 2 NEF-ers together.

I imagine you will need to add some lead or mercury to the butt to balance those heavy barrels, similar in profile to the NEF-er barrels, especially if you are making them any longer than 24".
Some extra weight beyond 10.5 pounds would be a good thing.

What length of barrels are you leaning toward for the 12GaFH double?

RIP-I'm planning on 24 inche barrels and My Zabala does have a greener style crossbolt. Talked to Butch Searcy today and got my plans"validated" by the master himself. He has kindly offered to harden the action for me once I've stripped it. Butch agrees I'll be OK to 26Kpsi and maybe a little more.BTW your reloading ring went out this am. If you want a few more of them let me know. They are a PIA but really solve the reloading problem.-Rob

Rob,
Thanks for the priming aid.
I have two barrels (from Ed) that match internally, and plenty long enough and fat enough to be turned down to a matching set for a DR. 24" still sounds perfect to me, should be lively.

I sure like the idea of the Greener crossbolt and heat treatment by Butch Searcy.
Maybe he could do one for me someday.
A 12GaFH DR by Searcy would beat a 700 NE, in all ways, probably including price too.

I wonder if he could produce a solid but plain "Bubba Jane" version 12gaFH DR?

Then I will need an extra set of smoothbore barrels with screw-in chokes (threaded for invector tubes including gain-twist-rifled Paradox-style), and a third set with one rifled and one smoothbore, cape-gun-style.

Maybe the weights in the butt could be removable mercury tubes, to balance a lighter set of smoothbores for sand grouse shooting when relaxing after the elephant hunt?

Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs. Ed

ED- A pre-expanded 450/400 for a couple of hundred dollars. -Rob

Way cool Ed!!!!!!

Did some carefull bore measurements today. Looks like the NEF needs .7305-.731 bullets. Also threaded and sized some of ED's cases. They are dimensionally a little different than the .50BMG cases I usually fireform to 12GaFH. Primer pockets need uniforming and chamfering. Got them to work nicely though. RIP your gonna need the cheater bar on the 5C collet closer. -Rob

Rob,
Thanks for making yourself useful again.
Looks like I may not need the .730" Lee Precision custom slug sizer, due to be delivered soon.
But when I get a tighter pair of barrels working, it may come in handy.
So I really do need to cast the Triple Foster Darwins in Linotype to get them up to .732" at least.
Hey, the "75-caliber" Brown Bess balls are .735" and weigh about 545 grains, IIRC.
That is a Single Foster for high velocity testing, but two of them could be loaded in 12GaFH 3.85" or the 3.5" hulls, for a Double Foster load.

The MEC 20 gauge Super Sizer comes with a long handle, and will outdo the 5C collet, for ease of squeezing the 12GaFH 3.85" case mouths.

I hope to prime the cases and fireform this weekend if the "Loading Ring" arrives.
I will feel like "Lord of the Ring" when I get that thing.

I might be able to use those Brown Bess balls as a bore plug for fireforming. That will get pressures up enough to blow out the case.

Rob -I noticed they are slightly longer than the 12GA FH
case when it's done. Did your sizing die bring them
down tight enough to hold a slug in tight? Did you have
to make a new collet/holder to hold cases to turn and
thread for rims? I sized one here and different slugs
I have fit tight.Ed

Ed/RIP- My sizer worked fine for .7305 bullets but didnt have quite enough neck tension for the .729 bullets. The case walls must be just a little thinner than std .50BMG. or they have more spring back.Cant tell! They needed a little massaging with the 5c collet. Not much just a little. I use a 6 jaw to hold the cases for turning and threading and that worked just fine although I did notice that things ran about .001 larger than before.
RIP- When you seat the .50BMG primers, go slowly and stop if you feel any hard resistance. They should seat smoothly!If you feel too much resistance stop as somethings wrong. You want the primer to be armed(i.e flattened) and no more than .002 below the case head. I adjust the rims till the round in the NEF will just close solidly. Then blue locktight the Rims in place if you want to. I usually dont bother though. They fire perfectly like this! Ed- your cases need the primer pocket sized and chamfered or the primers wont seat easily. No big deal just be aware of it.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs. Ed

Ed... What is the barrel ID?
maybe some scaled down aluminium death hammers or macifej's tripple 6 bullets would be fun.

Bore is .662" and I get 385gr slugs
24 for 15 bucks. I really don't want to
fire anything heavier in that barrel,as
its od at muzzle is .825". For heavy loads
it should be about an inch, or scaled like a
heavy barrel NEF 12ga Ultra.Ed

Took the NEF to the range today and entertained the crowd. Hit some granite rocks at 25yrds or so with a 1085gr brass slug over 220gr of H50BMG. Blew the rock to pieces accompanied by a very gratifying big boom. Ed-Used one of your cases. Welcomed many "HOLY SHITs" from the crowd! Let one guy shoot a round and it wacked him pretty hard. Lotsa more "Holy Shits". I had a good time! This thing is plain fun!-Rob

Rob,
Can't wait to try that load, will chronograph your Brass Darwin.
The Ring is still eagerly awaited.
Did kill Bambi with a muzzleloader today.
Have successfully culled a whitetail family unit this year:
Poppa Buck, Momma Doe, and Son Bambi.
Ate Momma Doe for lunch today.
Been munching on Poppa for a month:
Jerky and spicey summer sausage. Yummy.
Just doing the humane thing.
Bambi should be succulent.
Just need a recipe with fava beans from Macifej.
I'll try to do some culling with the 12GaFH soon.

RIP- Better find a big Bambi and shoot back pretty far. Looks to me like there wont be much left otherwise. Shock and Awe effect seems pretty strong. Should be no problem shooting without a break, but you will definately notice it went bang! The loading ring should show up soon and I cant wait to see your CHRONO results. I'll be able to get to mine in a week or so. So far I've been extremely pleased. Just got the book on building double rifles from shotguns. Now I have to be patient and wait till the barrels arrive.-Rob

quote:

Just need a recipe with fava beans from Macifej.

I dunno....didn't the Fava Beans come with Kidney's...?? Yuck..!! That Bambi Roast should be quite nice though...

So here is a question? How many of you guys want 12GaFh loading dies? Probably only need a two die set. Sizer/ deprimer and Seater. I am thinking of making dies for a RCBS ammomaster. I would like to make a run in the very near future.-Rob

Rob,
I just ordered the same book from Brownells. I like ordering through them. It was listed in the "New Products Catalog" #61-1, a flyer with the big catalog.

Would love to have some 12GaFH loading dies, with 1.5"-12tpi threads, for the AmmoMaster.
I could even tap out the hole on the Lee Classic Cast press from 1.25"-12tpi.
That is an $80 press that handles the Lee 50BMG dies with 1.25"-12tpi threads.

The 12GaFH deserves the 1.5"-12tpi threads like on the RCBS 50BMG dies.
2-die set would be fine. Sign me up.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
So here is a question? How many of you guys want 12GaFh loading dies? Probably only need a two die set. Sizer/ deprimer and Seater. I am thinking of making dies for a RCBS ammomaster. I would like to make a run in the very near future.-Rob

Puts Hand up for Reloading dies! If Dies are for crimping Brass with either Solid and sabot rounds. I was going to get this 12G Die from RCBS but am not to sure if it will do all that I need. I would like to use the RMC brass with standard 12G primers, it will be a shit load easier to do here than trying to explain why I need bits for .50Cal!!!