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Well- I have done some load testing with the 12 Ga-FH using Fireformed cases the water capacity is 355 grains. I started out with 270 gr of Rl-25 and a 750 gr monolitic solid by Bridger results were 2150fps. I then tried 300 gr of Varget for 2700fps and then moved to WW 748. 315 grs hit 3008 fps. Recoil was fierce and I estimate about 150ft-lb range. ME is about 15K. This load is not for the Timid! It goes through 1/2 steel plate nicely too. Next phase is 1000 gr Bridgers. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | ||
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Rob, you are getting only getting 10 fps per grain!!! HOLY COW the 550's ate leat get 20fps per grain.... what horrible powder economy!!! jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR Order AR/AccRel Brass What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Rob, you are certifiable!! I do mean this as a compliment!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Do you think that is a mild understatement?  Seriously, this is a very interesting project and I like the way the rifle turned out. But I would not want to shoot it at 3000 fps. Better you than me! | |||
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Rob, what are the heaviset bullets you intend to shoot ?? | |||
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Jeffe- It sure isn't efficient is it. It's like horsepower it takes about 500 to go 200 mph and about 1000 to go 250!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob, given the lists of some of the guns I've seen you shoot and your comments on them -- to see you say: "Recoil was fierce" makes my shoulder cringe without ever seeing this thing. My hat's truly off to you and Hubel putting together these 12ga FH project guns. This stuff goes beyond merely "impressive" to me. Any thoughts on selling the marketing rights to Ruger or Hornady or someone? ====================================== Cleachdadh mi fo m' féileadh dé tha an m' osan. | |||
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Not necessarily, my buddy Jack has been running over 300 mph on about 500 hp in Neb II and III. http://www.yacoucci.com/ Congrats on the 12 GFH, it is truly in a class of it's own! __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Ed- Thanks, I am taking .50BMG brass and expanding the necks in a homemade four step expander to .660, then fireforming with 65 grs of Bulleseye over cornmeal. Have you been able to fireform a .50BMG case directly to .729 without splitting? I've also calculated the pressure to be in the 45K PSI range. Brass just pops right out ,no problem. Muzzel rise is a major problem with this gun and when 25lbs gets going it's hard to stop. You really don't want to stand behind me, although a good gun catcher might be valuable. This gun NEEDS a MUZZEL BRAKE Badly( so much for form over function). Assuming I can get a 50% reduction in recoil, the gun becomes usable. As is, two shots and I'm done. I also made a 12GaFH SHORT by simply sawing a .50BMG case off at the beginning of the shoulder, threading the rim and expanding the case to .726 with a homemade expander. This cartridge is 2.8 inches long and will hold 200grs of powder. The nice thing is you don't need to fireform first. I can easily get 2650fps out of it with the 750's and 200 grs of Varget. Guys- Thanks for the kind words, I now think the 12 ga FH short using a shaw 12 ga barrel on a big Farquarqson action might be a pretty practical piece. It's trivial to match .577 T rex max loads with it and still shoot 12 Ga 2 3/4 inch shotgun shells. I am also seriously considering a paradox version. Paul- Hmm streamliner, no doubt your right. I'm thinking SC Viper. PC- I have some 2000 gr boreriders. They can be shot at around 1500fps. Look at the pics I posted before to see what one looks like.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob- I expand in two firings using up a bunch of extra powder I have.I have best luck with powders slower than shotgun and pistol powders.I use large(fill case about 3/4 full) charges, with farina to finish filling case and a wax plug about 5/8 in thick.First charge is 200gr of 7383 surplus and case mouth comes out to about .660, but the shoulder area comes all the way out for tight fit and a perfectly center case for second firing,Second firing is 200gr of 4064 and mouth comes out within .003.Run my 12ga expander in and get perfect size.The case is slightly wasp waist from base to just below the original shoulder area, but fits chamber tight and centered for firing with 730 gr Dixie hard cast Predators. I told James Gates I would find out if his hard bullets would take high speed.By the way all my brass is LC87 unfired and the factory annealing works ok.I did 15 cases and had a slight crack 1/8 inch on the mouth of one.Filed it a little, will work fine. And the case mouths come out real square using two step fireforming, no trimming needed ;in fact made chamber .070 longer than the 3.85 in long average the brass comes out after fireforming. Be able to fire a long time with no trimming. Did you use a shotgun style freebore area with a cone effect or use a regular rifle style freebore? I used a modified rifle style with long taper going to parallel freebore area, then a 2deg rifle style taper into rifling. How deep was the 2000 gr bore rider seated into the case??Ed. Ed Hubel ........585HE........ The First Belted, High Powered, 585 Sporting Cartridge. | |||
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Hi Rob, That sounds like too much of a good thing at 150 ft lbs. What is the weight of the rifle? Wait until you have to explain that one to the airline on the way to Texas. Take good care and best of the season, Dave | |||
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"hog gun" "okay"  jeffeopinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR Order AR/AccRel Brass What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Dave, Rob will have to ship his ammo by UPS. As it will weigh about 3 rounds to the pound. That or he will just have to drive down here, to keep from trying to explain shooting hogs with a 3/4" bullet. Hog Killer IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club ----------------------------------- DRSS (Po' boy chapter) | |||
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This round definately brings new meaning to the term, beware of your backstop  Definately takes hp to push a fullsize car fast. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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They say the same thing about the miles per gallon I get with my Excursion...   ~~~ Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. 1 Corinthians 16:13 | |||
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Got some testing done with 12GA FH using 730 gr Dixie Terminator hard slugs..First the gun is 25 lb built on a Savage 210 action, heavy barrel 31 in long.Stock is full of lead shot and epoxy in the butt section.. We got 2700 fps top speed with TERMINATOR lead slugs.No leading..All shooting done with one case to see how they hold up,over 2 dozen firings and no resizing needed on the bottom 2/3 of the case yet, only size the top 1/3 to grip bullet..cases fall out of chamber, and I have a minimum 12 gauge chamber as it is tight fit to get regular 12ga shot shell in it. Loads done so far with 730 gr-- 230 gr HBMG---1550 fps 280 ge HBMG---2000 fps---21k load 260 gr W860---2200 fps 300 gr W860---2400 fps---27k load 250 gr 7383---2560 fps---35k load.. slightly compressed 260 gr Magpro-2430 fps 300 gr Magpro-2700 fps---35k load-11,800 ft lbs. As this crappy weather allows, Will test 750 gr Bridger bullet; and Barnes 3/4 oz sabots(should get 4 grand). Maybe we can find a way to get a thick walled reciever done to put the Savage bolt, bolt carrier, trigger etc on,with slightly larger barrel thread..Then it would have safety margin for 50-55k loads.. The 3 lug bolt will hold if in thicker reciever...It is a real super smooth operating action. a thought, it is the ft lbs per grain that counts, and if I used 748 like Rob did I'd have 45k load and 3100 plus fps, as I have longer barrel..But for safety I won't go over 35k.. And for regular shooting will keep below 30k.I thank Rob for this crazy wonderful idea, that really works, using BMG primers, no problem firing off big loads of powder..Ed. Ed Hubel ........585HE........ The First Belted, High Powered, 585 Sporting Cartridge. | |||
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Ed, Can you get this in a Guide Gun?  Merry Christmas Roger QSL | |||
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A Paul Bunyon size one maybe..I do wish we big bore nuts had a Borchardt action on the mantle Sun morning.Ed Ed Hubel ........585HE........ The First Belted, High Powered, 585 Sporting Cartridge. | |||
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Someone somewhere was mentioning a rimmed 50BMG..The cases I have, before I fireform them, will work for that. And we have plenty so if someone wants to try a rimmed 50 cal, I will sell some cases. Do you realize we just outdood the vaunted 577,600, 700, Nyati, Trex, with a hotrod Savage!!! And Rob outdid the 50 cal with a beautiful BorchardtEd. Ed Hubel ........585HE........ The First Belted, High Powered, 585 Sporting Cartridge. | |||
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Ed- Good data! Thanks so much for it. I forgot you have a 31 inch barrel. To be honest, burning this much powder flat needs a longer tube. My muzzel flash is like a flamethrower, andf i'm leaving alot of velocity on the table with my 26 incher. I just got my NEI .732 1000gr Paradox mold and am anxious to try your loads in my gun. Ed- Try the 12Ga FH short. No fireforming needed, just a two step expander. .660-.726. It easily holds 200 grs of powder and is almost perfect for your 35Kpsi application. Just saw off a .50BMG case at the shoulder line, expand, then machine the threads in. This thing will surpass the mighty T-Rex and even my .600 OK big time and you can still shoot a 2 3/4 12 Ga std shotgun shell. Is it cool or what! By the way, Waffenfabrik Hein has a Webley Falling block for the .700NE for $2500. I'm talking to them right now about adapting it for the 12 Ga FH short. I am strongly considering building a real hunting weight paradox based 12GaFH on one. I'll use all my tricks to build a 11- 12lb Dragon Slayer.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob-- I have ball of fire also with the slow powders..One thing I will do later is develope loads for faster powders using wads to take up space, for folks who like 3031 to 4831 speed powders and the alliant stuff.Got a box full of 12 ga wads.After testing 750 gr hollow base Bridgers I will add lead and check them out at 1000-1000 gr. Realy got to find some to make a thick sided Savage action to put bolt and parts into.It right now would handle regular 500,577,600NE loadings, and could bedone with just a barrel and revamp the bolt head. If I make some shorter, would use case spinner and make super strong 3.5 in 700 NE cases.Bmg brass is tougher and you'd have big primer so misfires wouldn't be a problem..I fired first case, soon more, over 2 dozen times and never had to resize bottom 2/3 of the case. We could use 3in chamber of heavier barrel 12ga NEF or Encore, but I afraid the recoil would do us in,due to lack of weight, unless we load way down.After I fireform cases I only would have to cut them off at 3 inches. I only put rims on 4 and it was so much work I had John do big bunch for me with his CNC machinery.Ed. Ed Hubel ........585HE........ The First Belted, High Powered, 585 Sporting Cartridge. | |||
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My hat's off to you for this project. I looked at the thread title and thought "Holy Smokes!" What does this shoulder-fired howitzer look like? ____________________________________________ Did I mention, "I REALLY LIKE GUNS"? "...I don't care what you decide or how much you pay for it..." Former FFL Dealer NAHC Life Member NRA Endowment/Life Member Remington Society of America Member Hunter in Training | |||
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Bus-Check other 12GA Fh thread, for pic ofRob's on the nice Borchardt..Here is pic of mine.Ed.  Ed Hubel ........585HE........ The First Belted, High Powered, 585 Sporting Cartridge. | |||
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Shot a few Barnes 3/4 oz 12ga Saboted bullets. 280 gr of H-335 ball(all she would hold due to length of sabot); gave 3900 fps. Tested twice distance from chrono.We have block of iron in front of chrono on the bench chrono is on, so sabots and unglued bullets can't damage it.That is a real fast DB ball powder, and it sounded like a 90mm tank cannon. Brass still fell out of chamber.Ed. Ed Hubel ........585HE........ The First Belted, High Powered, 585 Sporting Cartridge. | |||
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Ed- Way to go. Your keeping the pressures way down too. I think I might be able to get even more with WW748 in my gun at higher pressures. IS THIS THING COOL OR WHAT!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob--thanks.that load was about 34k, the brass cases made from BMG brass are neat. They spring back and bottom 2/3 don't need sized at moderate pressures for many loads.. The Savage has no primary cammed extraction, but yet they come out easy.Cammed extraction can be setup if needed.That action would work for all of the NE cartridges. Could run 600NE at regular full 600 NE pressures for example. How deep in case did you seat the 2000gr bore rider bullet? Which seemed to kick harder, the 2000 @ 1500 or the 750 gr @ 3000 plus? Ed. Ed Hubel ........585HE........ The First Belted, High Powered, 585 Sporting Cartridge. | |||
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I am in a state of profound awe.............   If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky? | |||
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Ed- The boreriders seat .500 deep. I seat these to just cover the driving band. They definately kick harder than the 750's. Damn, 3900 at 35K. If you had a tungsten sabot that would do serious damage to even hardened armor plate. I've got to find some of those Barnes sabots. I can easily run 50Kpsi with WW748 although you have 5 inches more barrel than I do. What do you think 5000 fps? Wonder if my Oehler reads that high? What thread diameter does the savage use?-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob-I had to buy Federal shells and all to get sabot. A 3/4 oz sabot load,Federal puts out.Cut shell and got sabot out..Bought five, took four shots to get a reading. Had to back up about 35 ft so sabot wouldn't screw up reading. Sabot has small slots on side so I used a thin card under it. You should use faster ball powder like H-335 or AA-2230 to get speed.... 3/4 sabot, plastic and all is only 375 grains, so that is why I used faster powder..Wear your ear muffs..Ed. Ed Hubel ........585HE........ The First Belted, High Powered, 585 Sporting Cartridge. | |||
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I think this has to be the coolest thing ive seen in a long time. So yall are expanding the 50 bmg cases to have a rebated 12 ga rifle case? | |||
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STW Fan- No this isn't a .50BMG/12 Ga varient. I started out with that idea, but quickly abandoned it due to the fact that the cartridge would need to be registered and approved for sporting purposes by BATF. That is because it could be considered a destructive device in some states. To remain completely legal, We have modified .50BMG brass to hold a threaded on Rim. IDENTICAL to that on a std over the counter 12Ga shotshell. We intentionally built them to be able to fire 12 ga shotgun shells which run what 12Kpsi as well as 12 Ga From Hell full length or shorts at 50KPSI. In so doing I think we have developed the most powerfull shoulder-fireable cartridge in the world. At least it is to my knowledge. Now obviously a 20 mm cannon is more powerfull, but it definately is a destructive device and requires a license to own. I believe that the 12 Ga FH short can actually be made into a viable hunting firearm.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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You guys have issues... Mike What I have learned on AR: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place to get a steak dinner? is…you really want pork chops. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. The laws of physics do not apply to firearms in that there is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges and some cartridges are so powerful their kinetic energy can knock big game off its feet but not knock the shooter who fired it off their feet. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified so it can carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and a detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that almost every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine including those chambered in 50 BMG. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (regardless that most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of the ding in the gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether the ding occurred in the safe or in the field because safe dings are ok but field dings are worse. 10. One in a row is a trend, two in a row is statistically significant, and three similar occurrences in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. The AR Posting Quotient: the total number of posts divided by the number of days as a member: if greater than 2.5, recommend therapy. 12. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry, 280 Rem, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa. 13. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry, 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, 9,3x62 and all Weatherby cartridges abound in back country stores. | |||
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Mike- We don't need no stinkin issues. We have 12 Ga's.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob, check your email... Mike What I have learned on AR: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place to get a steak dinner? is…you really want pork chops. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. The laws of physics do not apply to firearms in that there is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges and some cartridges are so powerful their kinetic energy can knock big game off its feet but not knock the shooter who fired it off their feet. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified so it can carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and a detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that almost every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine including those chambered in 50 BMG. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (regardless that most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of the ding in the gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether the ding occurred in the safe or in the field because safe dings are ok but field dings are worse. 10. One in a row is a trend, two in a row is statistically significant, and three similar occurrences in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. The AR Posting Quotient: the total number of posts divided by the number of days as a member: if greater than 2.5, recommend therapy. 12. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry, 280 Rem, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa. 13. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry, 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, 9,3x62 and all Weatherby cartridges abound in back country stores. | |||
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Tell me more about how you're making your cases. I wish i was standing over your shoulder to see. Sorry if im bothering yall. i think stuff like this is intresting. | |||
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The .50BMG rims are Lathe turned down to .619 and the threaded 5/8X24. The Rims start with a 5/8 X24 threaded piece of 1 inch brass barstock. We basically duplicate all the dimensions of a std 12 Ga shotgun shell with respect to the rim. The rims are parted off the threaded barstock. You then screw the rims on the brass and your essentially done. I can make about 25 cases an hour and probably 50 rims. It's actually pretty easy to do and not very complicated at all. The cases are annealed at the shoulder and neck, then fireformed with 65 grs of Bulleseye to the full case dimensions. Resize, load powder and bullet and your in buisness.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Making rims and machining cases for rims works nice with automated equipment.. I had John at Bridger do mine.And rims are very strong as they hold fine in the shellholder I made for ammomaster, when I resize the top of the cases. Rob-About getting 5000fps with that Barnes sabot, you will have to find even faster powder than H-335 or AA-2230..Because now that I studied it, I had all the case would hold of H-335 and long barrel; and only got pressures about 34k..Maybe to get 15,000 ft lbs with sabot, find a heavier 1 oz sabot, and using H-335, get it to about 3900 fps with your rifle being able to run 50-60k.. Rob you mentioned trying some cast at about a 1000 grains..Can you harden them for speed. John I think also has a few of the hollow base 750s like I got that I plan on adding lead to base to get up to 1100 gr if your interested....Ed. Ed Hubel ........585HE........ The First Belted, High Powered, 585 Sporting Cartridge. | |||
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Are either of your barrels rifled? | |||
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They are both rifled although a smoothbore paradox gun is seriously being considered. ED - I have 1000gr linotype paradox slugs .732. Need some?-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Hmmmm I wonder how thick the copper clading is on a 3/4" grounding rod. you could turn that stock down and have your own bonded hardened steel core projectiles. I also thought about the battery lugs you can buy at an automotive store. They are used to screw into a side post battery and it give you a top mount type post. Chuck up on the 3/8 studs and turn off the wrench flats to your desired diameter then screw a "gas check" onto the stud. | |||
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