Have you seen a solid exit when shot from the rear of a buffalo (Texas heart shot) or from the front when shot lengthwise? From the rear did it hit the heart?

I tried a CEB FN solid from the front with my .577 but it did not exit. From Michael s test I thought it might. I once shot a buffalo angling away with a Gibbs .505 525gr round nose Kynoch and it turned and exited the bottom of the chest but did not traverse it lengthwise.

Terminal bullet performance Thread is your friend

I took a frontal brain shot on a buff and I was told by my PH that the solid was recovered in the stomach.I took the same shot with a swift-a-frame(same caliber etc..) on another buff and the skinner recovered it in the brain.I think that if a buff is laying down such that his body is compressed,a solid most likely will not penetrate sideways.

I had a 375 ultra 300 grain swift hit the brisket of and eland and come out them ham...

375 Weatherby firing a 300 grain Barnes Flat nosed solid. Entered just inside the front of the right shoulder and out the back of the opposite hind leg! And it was a very big bodied bull too!

Ongwe
Surely that couldn't have happened with a Barnes Flat nose as everyone knows those bullets are just crap. You have to me mistaken.

I shot a buff from the rear- a finishing shot-

416 B&M
350 gr CEB solid @ 2400fps

It broke the pelvis,continued straight, broke spine and lodged at base of skull.

Technically it did not fully exit length-wise, but breaking two major bone groups and penetrating to skull is good enough for me.

3 years ago I shot a buffalo that was facing me at about 80 yards with a 400gr Barnes TSX and the bullet exited about 2 inches to the left of his butthole, pretty impressive penetration in my opinion. Follow up shot with 2 Banded Solid also penetrated completely.

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
Ongwe
Surely that couldn't have happened with a Barnes Flat nose as everyone knows those bullets are just crap. You have to me mistaken.

Ha! Once they get an internet provider for the Selous and the buff get connected, hunting there is going to get much more difficult!

I shot a cow right beside the tail with a 300 grain .375 flat point Banded solid and recovered it stuck in the bottom lip. Only one I ever found.

In Wyoming with my dad we shot a Bison going away at maybe 40 yards with my 700NE Double ...1000 Woodleigh Soft! (Not solid) entered in his right rear next to his pooper and exited his chest!! We walked up and there was a garden hose type stream of blood flowing out! We were all in shock!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:
In Wyoming with my dad we shot a Bison going away at maybe 40 yards with my 700NE Double ...1000 Woodleigh Soft! (Not solid) entered in his right rear next to his pooper and exited his chest!! We walked up and there was a garden hose type stream of blood flowing out! We were all in shock!!!!

That's a big ole pile of Tasso.

I watched a friend of mine shoot a bison bull weighing over 1900 pounds square in the chest measured at 100 yards on a laser rangefinder. His Sharps 45-70 was loaded with 73 grains of 3f black powder pushing a 509 grain cast bullet, and it exited the left ham. 72 1/2 inches of penetration on a tape measure. The bull turned around, took two steps and collapsed.

In most cases the bullets from any big bore will come to a stop in the shoulder area, sometimes the neck, and ocassionally you will get a pass thru end to end..A lot depends on the time of day and how much mulch is in the stomach, not so much what caliber..Most all calibers and good bullets are pretty much equal, the difference is mostly in the animal itself, and what path the bullet takes, a stomach full of wet chew grass will slow down a 20 MM, the guts full of liquid or mulch are very elastic and can move a bullet off course as can heavy bone.....Teeth will also mess with the best of bullets..I shot a coming Cape buff in the jaw, the bullet, a well known and proven solid, spit on the teeth, half went out the jaw and back into the shoulder and ended up in the lung, the other half went down its gullet and pissed the old boy off, he bellowed and came hell bent for leather, the second shot from my 450-400 brained him and took out about 6 or 8 inches of spine, his nose covered our feet with mud....the hunter missed two shots and the PHs double jammed up during that escapade.

I have shot through a bull water buffalo here and hit an unseen cow behind it, both died.
The shot was at a quatering away angle and hit just in front/behind of the shoulder, it broke the off shoulder after taking the top of the heart with it, it then proceeded to hit a cow in the reeds in the neck at the base of the skull. The cow was laying down unseen. This was done with a 300gr Woodleigh PP out of my 375 Weatherby at close to 200yrds.
I have never used solids, even in Africa.

Cheers.


P.S.
I have a 505 Gibbs too, I am still waiting to hit a good bull buff with it with the 600gr Woodleigh PP. Hit a cow for meat, bullet was not found, but, didn't exit either.

The argument over solids and softs has been around for quite awhile, even among those who have shot many large animals..It was a credible conversation for many years.

I have used both solids and softs on buffalo, but still have no real opinion on the subject as they both worked for me and others that I observed.

I think with todays bullets such as the North Fork cup point or flat nose solid, the GS Customs HP or flat nose solid, the Woodliegh 350 gr. .375 and 450 gr. .416 both in a solid and PP or round nose, and we have a multitude of new flat nose solids, they all work just fine on everything but elephant, including plainsgame, buff, hippo and whatever, it's really become a campfire conversation of the past, with the exception of elephant IMO, and that's become a credible argument it seems..I would only use solids on elephants and probably on Rhino.

Interesting that the .375 and .416 with the higher velocities and good SD s may be able to do so but not the traditional big bore nitros.

Frontal area/ meplat in the big nitro's is the main problem.
mono metals like CEB or woodleigh hydros have fixed this now.

Nick

The only solid recovered from several Aussie buffalo using my 404 was one from a frontal angling chest shot where the bullet was recovered in the offside rear haunch joint. As we were cutting the buffalo up to take all the meat lo and behold as the haunch was separated at the joint here was the solid lodged perfectly in the ball and socket.

Never did a Texas heart shot, don't you know that all buffalo charge

those big 50s and up don't need any help with penetration they hammer about anything you shoot with them if you place the shot right..

My main gripe about them is recoil and recoil recovery. I hate when a gun chases me backwards while a buff is chasing me frontwards..just too much recoil for me..If you can handle them, they are the ultimate stopper. If you can't you better figure it out before you need to use it. not on the internet.

Just a reference to an article by Bradly Hunt on sectional density and some comments about elephant head Penetration

http://ammoguide.com/myag/arti.../penetration0802.pdf

Clearly SD is a major factor in stem to stern shots, if that's what's needed, or for an elephant brain shot. For this the "mid bores" do generally a better job based on SD and penetration index. Hunt suggests .310 SD, velocity of >2400fps and more than .400 caliber. However, if side on, or hitting the heart from the front, clearly a a expanding bullet of greater caliber has a better effect. But, some would say a smaller high velocity bullets effect should be taken into account, like a velocity of >3,200 fps. But it is more likely to be frangible.

For what's worth I ve seen better penetration with my Gibbs .505 than NE.577, probably because of SD and speed. I m sure experiences differ. But my one .375 / 505 at 3200fps penetrates through 20mm of iron steel plate.

So, I guess, no perfect caliber, bullet,speed,etc in a easily carry rifle and that what makes all the choosing and practice and preparation, fun!

I love the .375 but it will on occasion glance off a frontal shot on buffalo and go between the ribs and the shoulder, that does little damage and just ticks off buffalo. I have seen this on more than a few occasions.

I believe in SD and cross section on big bores and that it makes them better killers. the 450s, 500s, 577s, and up are more powerful and are better stoppers no doubt about that, but the other side of that argument is many folks like myself are not suicidal or immune to pain such as in recoil!!

I am perfectly confident with a .375, 9.3x62, for buffalo but I prefer a 404 or 416. With the lighter calibers I just pass up frontal shots, wait until they turn..

If it came to a charge and all I had was my 9.3x62 I would have to wait until I couldn't miss and put a solid in the brain with the smaller caliber, sometimes with a larger caliber, just depends.

For DG I do believe one should use a caliber capable of near complete penetration lengthwise and most any reasonable caliber will do that with a solid..I know a heavy for caliber solid in a 30-06 or a 7x57 will, but that's where cross section and SD come in as a bigger bore destroys more buffalo.

I have seen 375's on two separate occasions enter from the rear of a running buff and exit out the front with 300 grain NF solids @ 2400 fps. on the same hunt 375 Ruger with the same bullet went completely through the brain of a cow elephant into the neck from an off angle frontal shot.

I think it is going also to depend on what and when the buff last ate. A rumen bag full of wet grass, is going to put a serious slowdown on whatever bullet you send into it, solid or soft. I have not seen a soft (TSX) exit a buffalo yet, but have a stack of recovered bullets from them, all from just under the skin on the off side, several of which where point blank, from the spine thru the brisket insurance shots. All 416 Rigby and 375 H&H.

On elephant, I have yet to recover a single 416 solid, whether side brain or frontal shot. In fairness the frontal shot was a smaller cull type animal. The others were all side brain, all bullets were flat nose Barnes.

Interesting reading in the posted article:http://ammoguide.com/myag/articles/hunt/penetration0802.pdf

Not a treatise on knockdown power, but interesting chart on the relative value of penetration between calibers, speeds and bullet weights. Thanks for putting this up.

On elephant and Hippo and to a lesser degree even Cape Buffalo..I care not a flip about huge cross section of bullet on elephant, just give me plenty of penetration. A 600 gr. bullet stuck in a 2 ton animal at 2000 FPS does not jibe with my math within reason because an elephant out weighs a bullet perhaps!. I suppose elephants have been turned with big bores, but I know for a fact that elephants have been turned also with the .308 Win...If one makes a hole in the noggin and upsets the brain, it sure turns them everytime and with any caliber, turns them upside down sometimes. I place killing power ahead of stopping power. Id ranther kill one that wants a piece of me, than stop him..Makes me feel better.