quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
The pics of the “bananaing” hydros seems to be photo enhanced somewhat as it is really quite small. Could it be too much velocity hitting bone and deforming slightly while penetrating 6 feet of buffalo? Perhaps....

And a shorter HYDRO would be even less likely to bend and could be driven to greater momentum AND energy than the 500-gr HYDRO.
I would expect at least 8 feet of buffalo penetration on either a Texas or Portuguese heart shot with proper solid bullet performance.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
And finally don’t flat point bullet penetrate great because of their stability?

Yes, the greater shoulder stabilization allowed by the FN meplat makes it more stable than a spitzer or round nose.

Doesn’t matter how long it heavy (sic) it’s the fact that the weight is equally spaced before and after the center of gravity of the bullet.

Not true unless you are talking about a truly cylindrical bullet with meplat and base diameters the same.
Even a 100%-of-caliber meplat FN could not overcome the increased instability of a too-long cylinder in terminal media.

It’s the tapered ogive nose where the weight is all behind the CG that causes it to swap ends.

Well now, that is funny. All of the weight of a bullet being behind the center of gravity of the bullet ...

Hence the “magic” of flat point lever action bullets.

Those are usually quite short for weight if they will work through most lever actions and leave any room for powder ...
... ditto the supermagnum handgun bullets that are "super-penetrators" with hardcast lead at moderate velocities ...

The 500 hydro is a flat point bullet.

No, it is a cup point solid bullet made of brass or similar proprietary alloy,
with a nipple shape (few thou of wasp waist) at the tip so a plastic feed cap can be snapped over the cup point,
and be retained mechanically.
Works just like the snap fasteners on a garment.

The 500 TSX mushroomed into a flat point bullet

Not exactly, more like a round nose with a cupped, near-flat, small central meplat and shredded periphery,
and overall center of gravity moved forward on the long axis of the shortened-by-expansion bullet,
for improved "dart stability" though shoulder stabilization is also improved by the new nose shape.

with a slightly larger frontal area.

I would say greatly increased frontal area, which makes the 500-gr TSX prone to stop inside the animal, as did the 3 out of 30 that struck home ?

I did not see any evidence that they all did not work to great effect.

If the animal died, the bullet worked to great effect, no matter what technical failures occurred.

And quite accurate.

No doubt about that regarding target accuracy.

Head shots were spectacular.

I bet ! 500 grains of brass or copper at 2200 fps into a buffalo head would be spectacular whether the bullet was shaped like a musket ball, Frisbee or needle.

A low percentage recovery for the 500-gr TSX is what makes me think they did not all pop their 'chutes properly.
A high percentage recovery for the 500-gr HYDRO is what makes me think they are less stable than a 480-grain HYDRO, terminally speaking.

Rip ...

20 grains ain’t gonna change a thing. As for the CG that was a missspeak. So out of all the rounds fired a few went through too much buffalo bone and were recovered. That’s a failure? Still doesn’t change the fact the Lott is way more versatile for international hunting. 480-500 grain would not make a whit of difference to me. Why not just go 400 grain? Or 450? Heck you could get the velocity way up....If that’s what you want.

Oops ! Forgot the beginning of gunslinger55's latest stream aimed at my Cheerios:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
So much theory here.

Not theory. It is well accepted science, the best that humans can do with physics. Thank you Isaac Newton and other Giants.

The only recovered ones were full length head on or tail first shots. So you think a tumbling bullet can penetrate that far?

A flipped HYDRO, yes.

A properly opening TSX, should be more often stopped inside the buffalo than your 3 bullets out of 30. A 10% recovery rate is pretty low for the 500-grain TSX.

A non-tumbling HYDRO should zip through a buffalo more often than 80% of the time, assuming you recovered 2 out of 10 HYDRO 500-grainers.
A 20% recovery rate for the HYDRO is pretty high.

90% TSX exits. 80% HYDRO exits.

Something is bassackwards here.
More accurate counts on bullets fired and bullets recovered by type are needed.


Mines not a Saami chambered Lott either.

That is a really good thing for you. You have the remnant SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat sitting on top of a chamber reamed for 2.8" brass. Just like Jack Lott's original wildcat, before SAAMI short-throated it.

The bullets were not recovered tail first iirc.

A TSX that flipped early might exit like an FN solid.
A slightly bent and angle-nosed HYDRO speaks of failure to act like an FN solid.

How does more velocity stabilize the bullet more?

In air that is easy, more velocity, more gyroscopic stability.
In denser media not so easy.
Water is 900 times more dense than air, and requires an increased spin rate equal to the square root of 900 times faster, i.e., 30 times faster twist.
Increasing the velocity inside the terminal medium won't do squat for the 500-gr TSX,
unless your twist rate is increased from 1:14" (perfect for air travel) to 1:0.467". That is getting close to one revolution of the bullet for each caliber length it travels along the barrel.

Seems like I hear it both ways all the time.

Somebody has been fibbing or maybe just exaggerating ?

In any case your crusade to tell everyone how superior your custom loaded modified .458 wm is pretty funny.

Thank you very much ! In Afrikaans: Buy a donkey.

Sure it probably does what you said but how about load a long Lott case and stuff more powder in it?

You can do that with your .458 Lott Like Jack Built, Winchester throated, as long as you have the magazine length
and can trim the brass to fit cannelure locations or make new cannelure locations
equivalent to what the .458 WIN-V-3.4-3.6" can do.


What’s the real point? The thing kills just fine.

Right. Just like the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum with 3.340" COL and suitable bullets and powders: 2200 fps with 500-grainer in a 24" barrel, 60,000 psi.
Only 50 fps slower than the SAAMI .458 Lott at higher pressure (62,500 psi) and longer COL (3.6").
Funny isn't it?
Allow the .458 WIN same pressure and length as the .458 Lott and the .458 WIN is VICTORIOUS.

Seems a bit desperate at times the lengths one goes to try and convince people how right they are...

Hey ! It is fun. It is my SCHTICK.
It is a small counterbalance to all the Lottite schtick going around.
Lottite schtick is a pandemic !
The cure is the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Why not just go 400 grain? Or 450? Heck you could get the velocity way up....If that’s what you want.

I plan to:

Bear & Buffalo: 2600 fps for 400-grainer (monometal copper HP and brass FN or Hydro)
Elephant & Whaling: 2450 fps for 450-grainer (brass FN or HYDRO)
With the .458 WIN, of course.

I shot an equal number of both hydros and tsx.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Oops ! Forgot the beginning of gunslinger55's latest stream aimed at my Cheerios:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
So much theory here.

Not theory. It is well accepted science, the best that humans can do with physics. Thank you Isaac Newton and other Giants.

The only recovered ones were full length head on or tail first shots. So you think a tumbling bullet can penetrate that far?

A flipped HYDRO, yes.

A properly opening TSX, should be more often stopped inside the buffalo than your 3 bullets out of 30. A 10% recovery rate is pretty low for the 500-grain TSX.

A non-tumbling HYDRO should zip through a buffalo more often than 80% of the time, assuming you recovered 2 out of 10 HYDRO 500-grainers.
A 20% recovery rate for the HYDRO is pretty high.

90% TSX exits. 80% HYDRO exits.

Something is bassackwards here.
More accurate counts on bullets fired and bullets recovered by type are needed.


Mines not a Saami chambered Lott either.

That is a really good thing for you. You have the remnant SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat sitting on top of a chamber reamed for 2.8" brass. Just like Jack Lott's original wildcat, before SAAMI short-throated it.

The bullets were not recovered tail first iirc.

A TSX that flipped early might exit like an FN solid.
A slightly bent and angle-nosed HYDRO speaks of failure to act like an FN solid.

How does more velocity stabilize the bullet more?

In air that is easy, more velocity, more gyroscopic stability.
In denser media not so easy.
Water is 900 times more dense than air, and requires an increased spin rate equal to the square root of 900 times faster, i.e., 30 times faster twist.
Increasing the velocity inside the terminal medium won't do squat for the 500-gr TSX,
unless your twist rate is increased from 1:14" (perfect for air travel) to 1:0.467". That is getting close to one revolution of the bullet for each caliber length it travels along the barrel.

Seems like I hear it both ways all the time.

Somebody has been fibbing or maybe just exaggerating ?

In any case your crusade to tell everyone how superior your custom loaded modified .458 wm is pretty funny.

Thank you very much ! In Afrikaans: Buy a donkey.

Sure it probably does what you said but how about load a long Lott case and stuff more powder in it?

You can do that with your .458 Lott Like Jack Built, Winchester throated, as long as you have the magazine length
and can trim the brass to fit cannelure locations or make new cannelure locations
equivalent to what the .458 WIN-V-3.4-3.6" can do.


What’s the real point? The thing kills just fine.

Right. Just like the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum with 3.340" COL and suitable bullets and powders: 2200 fps with 500-grainer in a 24" barrel, 60,000 psi.
Only 50 fps slower than the SAAMI .458 Lott at higher pressure (62,500 psi) and longer COL (3.6").
Funny isn't it?
Allow the .458 WIN same pressure and length as the .458 Lott and the .458 WIN is VICTORIOUS.

Seems a bit desperate at times the lengths one goes to try and convince people how right they are...

Hey ! It is fun. It is my SCHTICK.
It is a small counterbalance to all the Lottite schtick going around.
Lottite schtick is a pandemic !
The cure is the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

As far as the CG misspeak it’s more mass behind the longitudinal center of bullet? Yeah that’s it....

Don’t let the airlines lose them lol

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Why not just go 400 grain? Or 450? Heck you could get the velocity way up....If that’s what you want.

I plan to:

Bear & Buffalo: 2600 fps for 400-grainer (monometal copper HP and brass FN or Hydro)
Elephant & Whaling: 2450 fps for 450-grainer (brass FN or HYDRO)
With the .458 WIN, of course.

How long is an aisan water buffalo bull nose to tail? I didn’t bring my tape measure although I got some pics of big dead bulls...

Just looked up some factoids about Asian water buffalos. Bulls can have bodies up to 300 cm or 9” 10” in length (not including tail) and weigh 1200 kg. So 8 feet of penatration perhaps more or less by a a couple badly performing hydros. Man that sucks I’m selling it

I have a couple of photos some where of a clients wounded Buffalo Bull (shot with 338 Ultra Mag, did kill two others nicely) I backed up on with the .458Win & a Factory (can't remember off hand but I think Winchester) solid, hit it in the right back leg & it came out the nose of the Bull !!

We were all impressed, the Bull the most lol !

Sarg,

That is a good one. I am taking it back to THE MISSION.

gunslinger55,

However you change your numbers, I cannot agree to disagree on the self-evident truth. That would be too much like U.S. Dimwitcratic Party politics. That is plumb abhorrent, like Lottite fantasy-reality.

Rip ...

Now I have shot 100's of Buffalo & not a lot have gone full length on a Big Bull & exit !

Must of hit no bone & gone up his throat ?

Now remember both the bull & I were running, I just try to get as many bullets on target as fast as I can after I start shooting & buffalo run with there heads down, so would of been stretched out !

Didn't get any good photos of the entrance wound as didn't know what I was looking at really & had more important things to do at the time !

Sarg,

Nice !
Looks like the entrance wound is on right hind leg/rump from whence the trickle of blood emanates,
visible in your photo of the south end of the north facing carcass.
Probably just a .458-caliber entrance hole in the hide.
Exit hole created an extra left nostril.

I shot a large bull bison in similar right rump location with a GSC FN as he did his death run away with a Barnes X in his chest.
Penetrated over 8 feet and exited under his chin, upper neck/throat, and he died in mid stride.
After he was down I shot him again with the GSC in the left rump, post mortem, and the bullet came out the throat again within a couple of inches of the first.
I also put another Barnes X into his chest post mortem, and it too bulged the offside hide, did not exit.
Properly performing softs and solids should have very different penetrations like that.

Your .458 WIN 500-gr solid sure did a good job on that Texas Brain Shot.
I bet your solid was quite a bit shorter in length than a .458/ 500-gr brass HYDRO.

Rip ...

I Guess, you were no hunting for meat as you shot up the choice parts of the bison after it was dead

Not at all, only a little rib meat lost with the two X-Bullets that did not exit, mushrooming perfectly and stopping under the offside hide.
One may eat right up to the bullet hole made by a 2400 fps GSC FN entering at ham and doing a tracheostomy on exit.

Back straps, tenderloins, and hamburger, lean with no fat added, was all I was after.
A 5 or 6 year-old bull bison makes a lot of spaghetti sauce and chili.
Mama taught me to make those from scratch when I was 10 years old,
living nextdoor to Chuck Woolery who was a married college student in Morehead, Kentucky.
Chuck liked Mama Mia's spaghetti sauce too.
I begged her to show me how to make such good stuff, so I could fill my belly ad lib when she was not able to cook for me.

Bison makes the best hamburger or ground chuck, not Chuck Woolery.
Heck, lets call it Wooleryburger or bisonburger, either one.
"Double-hamming" an old bison bull with FN solids is a good start on making bisonburger.
Cows and young bulls make better choice cuts, more tender.

Like Sarg, I suspect the solids encountered no major bone or glanced off the sides of the bones and stabilized onwards.
They are still orbiting the earth for all I know about their trajectories after exit.
It was straight-line in the bison, which weighed 1632 lbs on the truck scales after some bleeding, IIRC.

Rip ...

Good Day All,
Anybody got a quickload for 400 grain Speers and W748 for LOTT?
Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Forrest Halley:
Good Day All,
Anybody got a quickload for 400 grain Speers and W748 for LOTT?
Thanks!

Not the powder I would choose with 400 grain Speer.

However, I think you would do better to start this as thread on the Big Bores forum itself. That way everyone will see what you are looking for.

Eating right up to the hole is one gift of low or moderate velocity bullets. Solids make that even better. Shot a large calf elk in the ham as she made a hard left turn and the 338 300 grain Barnes came out her throat. Lungs were gone. Meat was all good.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Sarg,

That is a good one. I am taking it back to THE MISSION.

gunslinger55,

However you change your numbers, I cannot agree to disagree on the self-evident truth. That would be too much like U.S. Dimwitcratic Party politics. That is plumb abhorrent, like Lottite fantasy-reality.

Rip ...

Here we go again ... You can't blame the dog for that one, RIP

On the old tack, I see your buddy admits he is deeply involved in the oil industry, as I suspected.