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If only I can work the wife up to this I see a .416AR in MY future... 370 grain North Forks at about 2400 fps, that should do the trick. _____________________ A successful man is one who earns more money than his wife can spend. | |||
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 9.3x64 Brenneke 286<- grain bullet .. IMR 4350...<- 75.0 grains of powder.. primer.<--WIN 120.. 2,705 FPS | |||
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 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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potts...he is posting moderate preasure fps estimates...you could handload till the bolt sticks and get 2800 fps if you want ( not recommended) lets wait and see till the testing is done. you could do a full size rum case on the 9,3...man that would be fast, a tad faster than the 375  i believe jeffeosso is going for a practical (but still fast) cheap to shoot round (switch barrel please )577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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..Thay already make the 9.3x416 Rigby . And that 9.3x64 B load is not that hot i posted its no were near max .. I already own two 9.3x64s and both have fired that load and the bolt does not come anywere near sticking .. the cases dont need much resizing eather.. But ok i will hang ... ya never know | |||
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this is with a hurmous tone, guys .. yes, and the capstick says 2300, in fact.. there are rounds that out perform all of them... but!!! most of the rounds that out perform them are $$$$ brass... Ever seen a box of x64 brenneke in walmarts? 416 anything? how about 470? 404?? nah, but 300 rum is right here!! Remember, this is planning for modest pressure.. not top loads.. I believe we'll all agree that the 470 NE, 500 at 2150, will kill anything... so 500 at 2200 is just as good... 450ne#2 -- 500 - 2150... 2200 is better.. 404 jeffe 400 at 2250.. 450/400 - 400 at 2150... so, make it run in that crowd the smaller alibers, especially the 375, 338, 300 and 7mm are completely blanketed with other rounds... and "another" one there is probably not a huge advatage. 470 capstick vs 470 ar probably the same case capacity 2300fps 2200fps lower pressure 3.65" oal 3.35" OAl ... fits "std" mag 375HH straight 300 rum requires long action requires standard action or requies lots of mods to std action less advatage 470 ar. EXACTLY the same for the 458 lott vs 450 AR 416 rem vs 416 ar (ar is bigger/better than taylor) same case capacity same velocity at pressure rem requires longer or modified action AR should work in a 300 WIN mag action, 3.65" is about max for a mauser action 3.35 is easy in a mauser (costs less $$$) SO, a litter of fine wildcats, that do the same thing there are other rounds that do... But, until Neal ame up with the 550, there hadn't been a new bore in 40 years!!! jeffe #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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good stuff jeffeosso... will the 470 a.r. be able to follow the headspacing 30-30 rule or is there not enough to work with? i know there have been a few good rounds that dont follow this rule but i just wanted to know  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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What's a - walmarts - ? you mean the store.. Who shops at walmart ? lol ... Its also kinda hard to find 505 gibbs at walmart and even harder to find Weatherby rounds .. or atleast it sounds like it .. Dont folks most of the time go to a real sporting good store to "buy" loaded ammo or shell casings.. Hey i live in the bon docks ..... Now with all that said and done buddy i really want to see how it comes out .. jeffeosso i hope your not taking this wrong buddy .. the 470 and a 475 round that will work in a BLR sound great .. Anyway dont most folks own a Ammo Load Mark IV to do there reloading on ? Martin= Pain in the ass | |||
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o.k. potts thats $20 to the r+d fund  i must say the idea of a 475 blr makes me giddy 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Pottsy, i think i am am taking it in good humor.. I know you are poking fun, and jesting..  i hope i am coming over that way too!!! i mean, i realize that this aint going to beat ANY one round, in all aspects... but the brass can be got anywhere.. kinda a trade off thing.. the 470 AR is far inferior to the 470 mbogo... but fits in a model 70.. the 450 would be matched by the lott, and beaten by the 450 rigby, or 460 webby.. .but fits in a stand lenth action... the 416, same story as above... So, i think if it as an ultimate compromise round.. the 90th percenter in all catagories.. .. which is still an A!!! #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Ok just tell me were to send it .. o ya before i forget you might want to look a real reloading press  Ammo Load Worldwide Its the press all the "small time guys like me use for larger order jobs .. Na Na Na Na Martin= Bigger pain in the ass  | |||
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jeffeosso...you might need to start hiring people to help make these guns because once the rifle world catches wind of this you will be a busy guy. you are right in your thinking about this just needs to meet the other benchmarks not exceed them. they are good enough and this is good enough but more practical in a action-brass way. do they make "wildcatter of the year" awards? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The one thing I've learned since playing with the big bores is, never ever understimate the difficulty of getting componet brass. Sure, you can look at dimensions of various cases and oogle and doodle over a paticular exoctic and figure how dandy of a round it will make. But just because such a case was made, or somebody lists it for sale, doesn't mean said brass will be attainable in a year or two from now, or even right now. I'm hoping enough RUM's were sold so that componet brass will be available for some time to come. If not, well, at least it's a good 1/4 to 1/10th the price of the more exoctic cases, and all the big reloading houses stock it. So Jeff, have you figured out the .470 dimensions? I'm thinking .550" casehead, .540" at the shoulder, and ~.505" for the neck and .475" long neck. Shoulder angles the bugger, I figure 30 deg's, easy enough to form with a fl die, but hopefully sharp enough to keep it from moving around much once fireformed. Hmm, sounds like I need to keep my eyes pealed for a decent price on a used 7 mag. The only thing I've ever thought a 7 mag was good for is a re-barrel to something useful __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Jeffe, got your Email. What the Hell are you getting me into now. No, How much is this costing me anyhow.  Semper Fi WE BAND OF BUBBAS STC Hunting Club | |||
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Paul, DARN close... hadn't gotten it down to .540 or .535 on the shoulder, and the neck thickness is a little vague.. I think .505 is perfect, assuming a .015 thickness, which leaves no reason for inside neck reaming.. BUT, we are checking with jamison (we want headstamped brass, right) on the case wall thickness at 2.75.. What I think is it COULD require reaming.. but, then again, we don't want the spec to read .012, and be .006 short.. Gene, i have may have a use for your ruger jeffe #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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oops! sorry the .578 on the right is wrong  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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So, will a 264 work you think? that is about the only way I'll get into one inexpensive. Gotta tell you though, not just because I am lazy, well, maybe just that, but I am not into neck reaming. What about Quality Cartridge for proper headstamp? I know that I talked to him and I thought he said it was about 200 pieces minimum order to get a new headstamped cartridge. Red | |||
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I just ordered a pacnor #5 .475 18 twist chrome-moly The 264 sure should work!! We will be talking with jamison on headstamped brass. jeffe #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeffe You got it. I am interested also. Semper Fi WE BAND OF BUBBAS STC Hunting Club | |||
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I bet a 270 APEX would make a dandy 470 AR! "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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The 470 Capstick is based on the 375 H&H case, which is what I thought you meant. I must have misread your post. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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great! so the 470 ar is first? let us know when and where you want the r+d donations 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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You can also count me into the crowd that doesn't like to neck turn or ream brass. My 350 Rigby has well and goodly cured me of any desire to have difficult to form brass. One of these days I'll have to order 100 cases from Hornbear for the 350, but I'm going off on a tangent. The shoulder dimension is a catch 22, I prefer more taper in a body for extracion, and the biggest practical shoulder. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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I am like Paul. I love my 6.5 Gibbs but it has cured me of any desire to fiddle-f*ck around with brass forever. I will cast a vote for a 35 deg shoulder, if there is room for it. I just like that number. Probably my 6.5 Gibbs and 470 Mbogo are to blame. jeffe, I have no need whatsover for another 470 cartridge, but I think you could count me in on this. I have a potential donor action and a buddy that wants a 470 but thinks the 470 Mbogo is a tad too much for him. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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boom stick PM me guy ok ... ASAP maybe i can help some how .. | |||
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Hey guy,.... Drop me a PM .. could ya .. Thanks ahead of time .. Martin PA Bullet's | |||
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This sure is interesting and fun reading. Thanks for clearing up the questions, even though I don't quite get how the designator jumps up... After looking at all the different cartridges/cases/etc. mentioned, I had another name flash through my mind: .470 BigMOFO  ____________________________________________ Did I mention, "I REALLY LIKE GUNS"? "...I don't care what you decide or how much you pay for it..." Former FFL Dealer NAHC Life Member NRA Endowment/Life Member Remington Society of America Member Hunter in Training | |||
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Chris, i love Dave's round.. and, of course, will be hunting with him in a month!! There's no way it will match Dave's top end.. not a chance.. In fact, I think the 470mbogo is the best all around stopping/hunting rifle of the wildcats... and now the BUT.. the 470AR will fit in a model 70!! I am going to ask manson if he can make a "convertable" reamer.. that can do the 470, 458, and perhaps the 416... don't know if it can be done, but you don't know till you ask. I spoke with pacnor today.. they will be more than happy to hold the reamer for AR members, so everyone will have access to the reamer and heaspace gages if anyone wants to use them. Also, if we want to agree on a barrel profile, and if it's worth the additional shipping, Chris will do a discount on a bulk buy of the "same" pieces. So, i'll do the first one, send the reamer and gages to them, and perhaps we can decide, as a group, on a profile and let chris do a group buy.. so everyone can have the same thing, cheaper.. but that will be later. I am thinking the first one will be the 470 (on a ruger mki or mauser) and the second one will be the 458, on a mauser. I have a starting drawing to send to manson tomorrow. jeffe #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Hey Jeffe, I'm game.....but three down..........aint going to blow my cool on three down. Sunny-Hill #755 bottom metal, 4 down, you've got a win pattern for it........ , seems like the I know the guy that gave it to you.Billy, High in the shoulder (we band of bubbas) | |||
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BIlly, hey, i know that pattern!!! got a model 70 and some bottom metal? let's do it!! jeffe #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I like the way you think, but this one had been done already, or nearly so. Lazzeroni's .475 is named the BIBAMUFU, for Big Bad Mutha F*cka. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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You know I won't argue with that! I have been a convert for some time.
That is a real nice selling point. Its only downside is that it competes for that niche with the Capstick. Still though, its a cool enough idea that I could see participating. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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looking at Pauls pics.................doesnt look like much to headspace off of. Billy, High in the shoulder (we band of bubbas) | |||
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I'll make some up and measure them... should have about .035 to headspace, or .0175 a side.. once it's fireformed, as the shoulder will be .540, and the rum snould be about .30 there jeffe #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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My dummy is simply a 338 um necked up and trimmed, it is not a fireformed 470 AR. It was a simple quick and dirty neck up the case, trim it, and stuff a bullet in it to take a pic before heading out the door. Hence, the shoulder is in the wrong spot and of the wrong dia, the 470 AR will have less body taper to produce the shoulder, albeit a small one. Also the cast bullet I seated is shorter than a typical 500 gr .475" projectile. I was just trying to provide something for folks to look at, what would be more useful is a cad sketch. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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dumb question...looking at the "smart round" will you be able to do a .510 or .505 dia. bullet for a semi straight wall case? not that you need the extra dia.  it could be called the 500ar-max577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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If you don't mind headspacing on the case mouth. I'm not a big fan of that. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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The ultra " Mag " is not a belted case its more like a poor copy of a 9.3x64 B with half the Umf . | |||
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I'm interested in donating to get the project started but is there a chance of a 404 AR with the .423 diameter bullet? I don't know why but that just appeals to me. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I was wondering about the 404 AR, but then thought it would cause us all to incur the wrath of Ray  I guess I haven't seen the allure of a .423" bore unless it's a real deal 404. If you want a cheap/practical 40, seems the 416 T or 416 AR fit the bill. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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