quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Has Speer recanted, RIP?

Back in the mid '70s some of their loads seemed quite warm but those pressures you quote seem just starting loads compared to what I see in the ADI manual (mostly the same as Hodgdon where powders are just renamed?).

Not sure where I stand on this as I've found some of the ADI base loads too hot in my .45-70.

Paul,
I only go back to 1998 #13 Speer manual.
They seem to be stuck on those pressure levels since then.
#13 and #14 had an expanded level of Cowboy loads for the Trapdoor,
even went to 1799 fps (26" barrel) with the 400-gr Speer FNSP using a compressed 59.0 grains of W-748 with CCI-250 magnum primer and 2.540" COL.
Still said to be 21,000 CUP.
They even had a 500-grain cast bullet load (COL 2.765") that went up to 1503 fps in a 26" barrel,
40.0 grains of AA-2015BR with standard LR primer.
All supposed to be limited to 21,000 CUP for Trapdoor.
Original Trapdoor ballistics:
500-grainer at 1100 fps.
sharpsguy's 480-grainer loads around 1300 fps with BP or smokeless are humdingers for a Trapdoor.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
The .002 over groove rule is about harder alloys and smokeless as you asked not just the 458 throat. Said another way, it’s all about the smack in the rear of the bullet when it is started into the rifling. Black powder really hits ‘em when loaded as Sharpsguy does. Hit an over groove soft bullet like that and bad things happen.
Now having said that; I do think that the faster Smokeless powders in the 458wm a .459 bullet and bhn 12-18 alloy is a good thing. A little smack there doesn’t hurt anything. If I had a .460 or .461 I would be using it but I don’t. I don’t think my bullet would shoot nearly as well with a case full of surplus 8700 for example.

Dennis,
Agreed.
Cast bullet shooting is like soap suds enema administration by Nurse Ratchet, in some regards.
Either soft, slow, and gentle,
or high, hot, and hard,
tailored to the patient/rifle to produce the desired projectile results.

sharpsguy, like you, seems to have been able to take the middle ground with his smokeless load of IMR-3031, you with AA-2015 (see that Speer cast bullet load above).

I am guessing he uses same bullet sizing for his smokeless as with his BP load,
though he might harden the WW/PB by water quenching and could leave it soft by air cooling his castings.

Great link about cast bullet alloys:

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

It dares to discuss arsenic content and its importance for hardening of water-drop quenched bullets
and oven bake heat-treatment.
Old-style, clip-on wheel weights have a trace of arsenic.
Magnum shot has more.
It aids in sphericity of shot as well as working as a catalyst in hardening by the antimony in the magnum lead shot.
Eh ?

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Rip,
That link is one I have used for years. Started out with Elmer Keith, who also wrote about the value of arsenic in alloy, and then had a very good friend that taught me a lot over a hot pot and molding blocks. We used to cast 5 gallon buckets full of bullets. Ken Waters is a solid writer who always tested Cast. Interesting enough, he could not get his .458 Wm to shoot cast. That kind of launched me to to trying mine! Ross Seyfreid wrote well on Cast and I read it all. Then the Internet came along and the world of folks who are trying things was there to read. At the present mile marker on that Journey is one RIP, who is contributing much to the shooter community including about Cast shooting. In today's lingo, we should be crowd funding a "Buy a donkey" program for that guy.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Has Speer recanted, RIP?

Back in the mid '70s some of their loads seemed quite warm but those pressures you quote seem just starting loads compared to what I see in the ADI manual (mostly the same as Hodgdon where powders are just renamed?).

Not sure where I stand on this as I've found some of the ADI base loads too hot in my .45-70.

Paul,
I only go back to 1998 #13 Speer manual.
They seem to be stuck on those pressure levels since then.
#13 and #14 had an expanded level of Cowboy loads for the Trapdoor,
even went to 1799 fps (26" barrel) with the 400-gr Speer FNSP using a compressed 59.0 grains of W-748 with CCI-250 magnum primer and 2.540" COL.
Still said to be 21,000 CUP.
They even had a 500-grain cast bullet load (COL 2.765") that went up to 1503 fps in a 26" barrel,
40.0 grains of AA-2015BR with standard LR primer.
All supposed to be limited to 21,000 CUP for Trapdoor.
Original Trapdoor ballistics:
500-grainer at 1100 fps.
sharpsguy's 480-grainer loads around 1300 fps with BP or smokeless are humdingers for a Trapdoor.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Thanks Ron,
I'm thinking of going back to trapdoor loads in my rifle, anyway, because I had a cartridge fail to fire the other day. The primer seemed to have been seated quite deeply but you never know ...

RIP, yessir, sharpsguy speaks the truth, 'groove' diameter for cast grease groove bullets with BPCR, going over 'WILL' force the lead somewhere, and that somewhere is off the base of the bullet. now sporting 3, 4, 5, 6, or 8 fins [rudders] steering the bullet off into god knows where at long ranges, direct evidence of this has been seen from undamaged and recovered bullets shot into snow banks and recovered in the spring thaw.

We can take a hammer and swat a bullets nose and still have it shoot pretty good, bugger up a bullets base and all bets are off.

Thanks, Jerry.
I will size to groove diameter or .001" smaller when smacking the greasers with BP.
The SAECO #583 for the .50-2.5" is in transit.
The 2 dual-cavity moulds ordered from the Accurate Molds catalog (with 4 different cavities total) arrived in a week:





.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

BACO delivers pronto too, if they have the itemin stock:




.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Has Speer recanted, RIP?

Back in the mid '70s some of their loads seemed quite warm but those pressures you quote seem just starting loads compared to what I see in the ADI manual (mostly the same as Hodgdon where powders are just renamed?).

Not sure where I stand on this as I've found some of the ADI base loads too hot in my .45-70.

Paul,
I only go back to 1998 #13 Speer manual.
They seem to be stuck on those pressure levels since then.
#13 and #14 had an expanded level of Cowboy loads for the Trapdoor,
even went to 1799 fps (26" barrel) with the 400-gr Speer FNSP using a compressed 59.0 grains of W-748 with CCI-250 magnum primer and 2.540" COL.
Still said to be 21,000 CUP.
They even had a 500-grain cast bullet load (COL 2.765") that went up to 1503 fps in a 26" barrel,
40.0 grains of AA-2015BR with standard LR primer.
All supposed to be limited to 21,000 CUP for Trapdoor.
Original Trapdoor ballistics:
500-grainer at 1100 fps.
sharpsguy's 480-grainer loads around 1300 fps with BP or smokeless are humdingers for a Trapdoor.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Looking at your post again, Ron, I might have to find some more Win 748. The lot I had was given to me but didn't seem quite as good in the .45-70 as ADI 2207 (H4198?) so, when my mate said he couldn't find any W748 for his 458WM, I passed mine on to him.

Reminded that the 400-grain Speer load with 59 grains of W748 is in fact a Trapdoor load, I might have to revisit it. Since I've had the throat extended, the powder shouldn't have to be compressed, though I suppose the extension might drop the velocity again.

I have some 750 Gr hard cast by Ranger Rick from Alaska that work well on bear in my 450M.

Got lucky over the weekend and found a pack of the 350gr Speer HotCor .458dia bullets. Found a few articles saying that the bullet is too hard for reliable expansion at 45-70 speeds...and the 400gr is a better choice. Also found that the bullet needs "shorter?" brass to keep coal correct to function out of an 1895 marlin.

Whether I keep them for my 4570 or they sit on the reloading bench until I own another 458 win mag / Lott.. I was excited to find them. Haven't seen .458 dia reloading bullets in over a year locally.

Bringing this thread back to life just because I'm bored and was wondering if anyone has load data for the cast performance 405gr with reloader 7.

The 400 gr. Speer was marshmellow, and only suitable for deer IMO.

I like the Kodiak bullets best for elk or anything else as a matter of fact, also Woodleighs an the 45-70 and 45-90 should be used with 400 gr. and 500 gr. bullets IMO...just my 2 bits..