The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 45-70 bullets for elk, moose and grizzGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| one of us |
ONLY IN HOLLYWOOD ? Exhibit C:  Poor ol' Tom Selleck is selling reverse mortgages to the gullible elderly now. I can tell which knee is bad on a fat old lady by the way she walks. Tom has two bad knees, I reckon, judging by his late TV commercial appearances. And I once saw him in person, playing baseball in Honolulu, during his Magnum P.I. days. No double limp then. Well, I do admire the BPCR shootin' with iron sights by the likes of Jerry and sharpsguy. But I am definitely schtuck on the .458 WIN with smokeless and a scope. Previous dabbling has shown that the .458 WIN throat is perfect for a paper-patched bullet with BP. It is also perfect for smokeless powder and just about anything else but paper-patched, and I am not quite sure why. Gotta use BP with paper-patched. I am going to practice at it, both ways. One day I may have a true custom mould for paper-patch slicks for the .40-65 WCF and .40-90 Sharps BN, based on advice from sharpsguy. Until then, I do love the Accurate Molds "Custom Bullet Molds" you can pick from the internet catalog, ready-designed. I order them with diameters and weights and lengths as designed for clip-on wheel weight alloy, and specified 3 different tolerances amongst the four mould cavities below. These two are coming in one dual-cavity, brass-block mould for .45-cal: .442" +.000"/-.002" diameter, 1.375" BOL, 530 grains, for paper patch and BP:  .460" +.002"/-.000" major diameter and .450" +.001"/-/001" for the bore-riding nose, 1.360" BOL, 576 grains (without the PCP and GC), for casting in Alloy 25 and sizing to .461" with smokeless:  Another dual-cavity, brass-block mould for .40-cal, the second one below is a weird one billed as "for paper patch" though not a slick: .392" +.000"/-.002" diameter, 1.125" BOL, 340 grains, for paper patch and BP:  .386" +/- .001" diameter, 1.155" BOL, 350 grains, for paper patch and BP:   .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
|
| One of Us |
Following pictures are from today. 400gr speer at 100yds or so, at 1800fps out of my marlin sbl. 6 water jugs in cardboard boxes and hit a chunk of cinderblock behind it before bouncing back into the box https://i.imgur.com/h5whC4i.jpg | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
 | |||
|
| One of Us |
  | |||
|
| one of us |
Hyak55171, Here are your photos cropped from +3000 X +4000 to 1024 X ~820.    So the Speer 400-grainer at about 1800 fps is a dandy "Express" load that Selous could have used to greater effect than his paper-patched hollow-pointed 360-grainers at about 1700 fps. Smokeless and jacketed ain't so bad afterall, using an 18"-barreled, .45-70 Govt., lever action repeater to better a 28"-barreled BPCR, at least for the "Express" loads. Now, can a .458"/ 570-grainer with BC of .500 be sent down range at 1250 fps from the Marlin Guide Gun with 18" barrel ? That would be an interesting smokeless load with a gas-checked cast bullet. Oh heck, I would settle for a Woodleigh .458"/ 550-grain RN SP with it's meplat flattened, for low-BC, close range work. 1250 fps would be good enough for that.  A lot of folks find it tedious on some devices to have to scroll around to even see the part of the image of interest, and some with slow internet connections will get big-bored waiting for the huge images to download. I only post a huge image for "drama" whether good or bad. I am going to post your cropped images on the ".458 winchester magnum" thread as an example for emulation with the .458 WIN(-)P loads. Thanks, if you don't mind. .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
|
| One of Us |
OIH, yes, RIP, only in hollyweird my friend, From the rooster windmill weather station on the roof, too some Kansas' dust in the wind, too off handing a milk bucket 3 times at 700 yards, great and fun entertainment nonetheless. The 200 yard 4 shot group above is with my new 700gr grease groove gov bullet I had Steve Brooks cut the mould for, I also shot it through the 55 gallon drum filled with water at 1427 fps from my 11 pound hunting weight 50-90 Sharps, it penetrates, and penetrates straight too. Loaded 4 rounds in this 15lb bull barreled Sharps 50-90 target rifle I bang around on gongs with there at the farm out to 700 yards, the bullet not only penetrates straight, but is very accurate as well, those four rounds were fired loaded the traditional way with no wiping or blow tubing, it will make an EXCELLENT hunting bullet. I would have thought Selleck would have had a bad back instead of bad knees, that dude probably banged more chickens than Tyson ; ] | |||
|
| One of Us |
RIP, interesting observations with smokeless/coated alloys vs and/or paper patch and lead, betting you'll have a blast with the new moulds anyway, short of filling the larders with meat, these rifles provide fun ALL year long, as we've both said, and previously agreed on, this can in no way ever become boring. BTW, I have an 18 twist Shiloh Sharps barrel in 45-70, if I come across the right Ruger #1, I may have to build my own "Goldie Pedersoli".............albeit in most likely the 45 3-1/4" version ; ] | |||
|
| one of us |
Weeeellll doggies ! You will have to call her "Goldie Shiloh-Ruger." If you figure out how to remove the Ruger tang safety and replace it with a tang ladder sight let me know, Jerry. Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger is a work in progress still, stalled on the tang sight. She could use a "Rough & Ready" ladder sight on her barrel. I do have a spare walnut forend for her, one without the epoxy&steel surveyor's tripod base on it.  BP only in her, with greasers and paper-patched .45-cals only, 480-ish-grainers and 530-ish-grainers respectively.  BTW, I think my Pedersoli is mostly 0.458"-grooved but chokes to .457" at the muzzle. Pedersoli advertises it as .458"/.450"/6-groove/1:18" twist. Do Shiloh barrels have some choke in them too ? What is the difference between a Shiloh barrel and a Pedersoli barrel ? .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
|
One of Us |
Be careful what you wish for, RIP. My gunsmith buddy removed the lawyer's safety from my Winoku 86 and put a Marble's tang sight over the slot. It works OK and I still have the hammer as 'safety' - but even with my moderate loads the sight takes a certain toll on the web of my thumb. Though the tang sight looks the part, I think a Lyman receiver sight like the one on my 375 Win would have been more useful, esp. if I put a block under the r/h side of the cross arm to ensure it wouldn't get bent down in a fall. | |||
|
| One of Us |
RIP, google 'bullet stability calculator'..........The Berger bullet website calculator will appear, I just ran a 50 cal bullet with a b.c. of .475, diameter of .512, length of 1.400 inch, velocity of 1150 fps, 26 twist, you can enter your elevation, temp, humidity numbers etc for your region, got a max stabilized number of 1.95, so you're GTG up to 700 grains and 1.400" bullet length with 26 twist. Go to Montana bullets website and order you some 50 cal 700gr grease groove bullets, if you and your rifles like, save a bullet and send it to Steve Brooks and have him make you a mould for it. That bullet is very similar to the one I shot through the 55 gal drum and also the 200 yard 4 shot group in the above photo. | |||
|
| One of Us |
LOL, on my Goldie Shiloh Ruger, BTW, you can order a Smith ladder barrel sight for your 'Goldie' and ring steel out to 400 yards or more just like I do with my Turnbull '86 Winchester in 50-110 WCF with 700gr grease groove bullets over black powder. | |||
|
| one of us |
 Paul and Jerry, Yes, forget the tang sight and no safety on a hammerless BPCR. Will make do with barrel ladder sight and maybe a heel-mounted sight base for back-position shooting. However, I much prefer shooting from a long bipod, the modern cross sticks, WITH A SCOPE.    Bipod above telescopes to nearly twice that tall for a good sit with paper-patched and BP. Goldie is my shop mule for testing loads for the .458 WIN BPCR loadings.  .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
|
| one of us |
Jerry, Thanks for the calculation. Accurate Molds has a PP mould on the shelf with 1.25" length, and diameter of .496" (+/- .001") to patch up to fit my .504" Pedersoli bore, .512" groove, 1:26". 600 grains in WW. That will be playing it safe for my slow twist. A CIP .500 Jeffery with 1:20" twist would make a great paper-patch-BPCR. Best use I can think of for the .500 Jeffery. Maybe we better get back to .45-70 loads now. Here is a step in the right direction, .45-cal anyway:  Hopefully that will be some inspiration for you to get the "Selous 570-grainer" loaded with a grease cookie in the .45-110. Winchester experimented with a 650-grain bullet in the .45-120. Must have been too much of a good thing. Ditto the .45-200-500, which had a true .458-caliber/ 500-grain bullet over 200 grains of BP. "Bombed" out too, figuratively and maybe literally ? .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum | |||
|
| One of Us |
RIP, yes, a rch over 565 grains, I have you 5 grains thumbed in over on the right side of the scale, 20 to 1 would surely make the 570 grains. LOL, those Weatherby boxes hold new 338-378 WM brass cases, you see, I've been at this game for awhile, long before anyone heard of the 338 Lapua I was shooting the then wildcat 338-378 WBY with 28in Shilen 10 twist barrels by necking down 378 WBY cases, in 30 years, my old rifle is on it's 3rd barrel, it now shoots 338 cal 300gr Accubonds at 3000 fps with a hefty charge of Retumbo, a big Nightforce does the guiding, it's so easy to hit with it's almost like cheating, hence me first starting off Lyman and Redfield receiver peeping lever action rifles, then on to the Sharps rifles, therein lies the challenge with iron sight shooting, particularly with bullets you cast and lube, or cast and paper patch yourself. Good call with the ladder barrel sight, BTW, back position shooting sounds like a 30 year old man's game ; ] Good Luck. You definitely have a pile of wares for testing and shooting, I can't wait till everyday is Saturday for me, i'll be like some sort of mad scientist in the load shop. Quiet welcome for the quick stabilization check, it's a handy spot to have in your favorites box, as is the JBM trajectory calculator. The 570gr [at 20-1] Selous bullet in my 45-110 bull barrel rifle would be a hoot over a 3/16ths black magic cookie and 105gr OE 2Fg, it would break 1400 fps, if accuracy was there, it would indeed be a hammer for all game, near OR far. Agreed, 650gr at 45 cal is too much of a good thing, would probably require 16 twist to stabilize, massive torque would then come into play trying to break a good shoot, monstrous amounts of fouling to control as well as recoil, would be the major negative factors. In the case of the 45-200-500, I bet they had to insert the separated case back into the rifle after first firing, pour the bore full of hot lead, then drive the rest of the case out of the chamber! | |||
|
| one of us |
Jerry, .338/.378 WBY wildcat was an Elmer Keith and Seyfried schtick way back when, and Seyfried and Bob Hagel both talked up the .340 WBY so much that it was my first "Alaska Rifle" in 1985. It was a good one. That is right, I had no idea what a .338 Lopwah Magnum was back then. Saw my first one of those about 1987 at Jap Bay on Kodiak Island. I guess we are not doing to well at ending this highjack. One more: So what is the most BP you have gotten compressed into a .50-90 2.5" Sharps Straight with shallowest seating of a paper-patched bullet of whatever weight ? | |||
|
| One of Us |
You bet RIP, it's a Bad A round indeed, 300gr Accubonds bring tough love to the rocks on the mountain behind the house 1 mile away. Highjack certainly not intended here either, speaking of the Marlin lever action, 525gr Beartooth piledrivers at 1755 fps with a charge of RL-7 have no peer in sheer penetration, short of some sort of weird mono solid, I ran that load for years in a Marlin Cowboy lever action with Lyman receiver peep. Had an old breeder bull I should have sold years earlier, the old boss stud made me some serious money in his day, decided to let him live out his days in peace in a separate pasture. Well, looked out on frosty morning and there he lay, stone dead, I grabbed my Marlin, the big tractor with loaded bucket, chain, chain saw, sharp double bit ax, a big damn Kabar knife and went to work testing those 525gr pile drivers, I hung, drug, turned over from side to side, even took a tailpipe shot, that was the only bullet found and recovered, it was up in his brisket, maybe 9ft of penetration, the old bull had deteriorated some and lost a couple hundred pounds I guess, but still weighed a ton, shots were made from 5 to around 50 yards on the bull. 50-90 Starline cases will easily drop tube hold 130 grains Swiss 1FG, imagine it would hold same in 2FG, have also put in 120gr OE 2FG, you could go 120gr 3FG if you needed to make that level of power [pressure], I never needed [wanted to sit behind] that much, two 30 thou Walters wads, a 3/16ths grease cookie and 200 thou of bullet shank in the case is around .450 thou total compression, easy as can be. I should add, I dilute Rooster Jacket lube by at least half with filtered water, it still does it's job plenty well for paper patching as we've witnessed in the Seyfried duplication test. | |||
|
| one of us |
Jerry, That there was some excellent bullet testing with the dead bull shooting.  And it gets the thread back to .45-70 loads. Pretty slick the way you did that before answering the highjack question about .50-90 Sharps. Good to know that too. Sharpsguy taught me how to compress BP in the .45-70. .450" of compression in the .50-90 is easy. So I am now bold enough to go with this slick as a starter:  If it will not stabilize in my 1:26" twist with BP and paper patch, then, God help me,  I will use this one with smokeless, powder-coat paint, gas check and harder alloy:  Trying to turn off the highjack.  | |||
|
One of Us |
400gr Speer recovered photos look good !!! "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
|
| One of Us |
No problem RIP, I'm still not to hip on the picture posting thing. Not sure how to crop when posting from imgur or whatnot. I'm thinking this might be my load for moose this September, unless i can get my cast load to shoot as accurately. Once i get settled back in, be it in Alaska if i get this job I'm interviewing for in Sept or back in Washington, I'll have to try loading some of the 500gr+ woodleighs | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks | |||
|
| one of us |
OK then, not really a highjack, just think "45-70 to 50-140 bullets for elk, moose and grizz" and let the wisdom of Bill & Jerry be applied to that caliber bracket. Tips for a .50-90 might be applicable to the .45-70, and vice versa. .50-140 might be a bit of a stretch, but there is much to be learned there too. I have been chided by "No Name" about my choice of paperpatch diameter for a Pedersoli .50-cal. Heck, I still have plenty of .40-cal and .45-cal paper-patching to learn on. I better stick with grease-groove bullets and try to get a serviceable load with those first. A little bird told me this one has been known to shoot OK in a 1:26" twist barrel:  They had one of those moulds on the shelf at Buffalo Arms Co. and it is on the way. Image and description above were copied from BACO online catalog. I do not know how long the bullet is or if it really has such a funny-looking nose on it. I will cast it in something like 30:1 or 20:1 or air-cooled wheel weights, pan lube it, and compress some BP under it ... .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
|
| One of Us |
That is the only bullet I have found that will shoot in my 1-26 twist 50-90, paper patched or greaser. It will stay in 2 inches or slightly less at 100 yards. Keep in mind there is no guarantee that it will shoot in your rifle(s). | |||
|
| one of us |
Big Chief Little Bird, does the bullet look anything like that, with a truncated cone nose ? .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The meplat is much larger on the bullet that works. | |||
|
| One of Us |
RIP, yes, too bad live [or recently departed] test media doesn't come along very often, the 45-70 bull test provided a lot of time/money saving, possibly complete hunt blowing information. sharpsguy is correct, .497 is way to big to patch then get into a rifle, managing the fouling and shooting these rifles dirty is half the fun, good move on the 650gr greaser, remember, you can easily stabilize up to 1.400 inch bullet length with 26 twist. | |||
|
| one of us |
Jerry & sharpsguy, The 2010 GUN DIGEST chapter called "The Encyclopedia of Bullet Casting" by Kenneth Walters, says the SAECO #583, in Linotype, has a length of 1.332", diameter .513", and weighs 610 grains. I calculate about 648 grains in WW. Should be a winner in 1:26" twist even as slow as 1325 fps according to the McGowen twist calculator.  Supposed to be like an old BPCR factory bullet. Wish I could find an image of it while waiting on FedEx. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ask and ye shall receive. Check your phone pictures. >507 diameter, 1.336 long, 646 grains. You're welcome. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Nice, congrats RIP, it's on like donkey kong now! ; ] | |||
|
| one of us |
Yepper, like donkey kong now.  I was mowing the yard when the photo arrived from sharpsguy. Looks kinda like a scaled up PH like sharpsguy is so fond of in the .45-70. There you go, back to .45-70 for now. I will get that pic up here, of the .50-90 loaded with and along side the bullet alone. Will continue to compare it to the .45-70 to stay on topic. Thanks. | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| one of us |
 Sure is amazing how much like a scaled-up .458"/ 480-grain PH bullet that one is.  Might penetrate as well as the .45-70 BPCR 480-grainer if I get it up to 1325 fps MV. Fills a gap in my mould collection too, a collection of shortcomings and excesses, maybe finally the Goldie Locks or Mama Bear bullet:    Above are "as cast" diameters for the alloys shown. I am able to size to .510" or .512" currently. I detest the old Lyman "Lubrisizer" type contraptions, prefer a Lee or CH4D bullet sizer and pan lubing like sharpsguy recommends. Mama Bear: That reminds me of the Dimwitcrat answer to the MAGA hat. The rioters and looters will soon be sporting MAMA hats: "Make America Miserable Again." So appropriate for the Nanny State Tit Suckers. (Idea thanks to Greg Gutfeld.) .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes, a lot of similarities between the 480 Lyman flat nose and the big 583 Saeco, bet the accuracy comparisons will be same too, FWIW, sharpsguy has accurately shot the .458 480 Lyman out to 1000 yards, you would be GTG at 1240 fps with that big bullet, in the names of shoot ability and less recoil. I came, and I saw, and I did, with the Big 50, 780 grains of bullet at 1324 fps is not fun for 30 rounds at the bench, it was beautifully accurate on the 700 yard gong, but, I was in severe need of a liquid advil IV, and ice truck, and a bottle of 12 year Glenmorangie ; ] I did find the elusive "too much of a good thing" saying. | |||
|
| one of us |
Jerry, So using heavy charges of BP with a 780-grain bullet at 1324 fps does get your attention after 30 rounds at the bench. I see. I reckon I would need a 1:20" twist to make my NEI #374 777-grainer work as slow as 1150 fps, faster would be gravy. I did shoot it in a .500 Mbogo with smokeless (100 grains of H4831sc) and 1:10" twist with Lyman#2 equivalent alloy, sized to .510" in a .510" groove.  25" barrel velocity was 1760 fps (5-yard vel.) average of 6 shots (19 fps ES), ~ 3" group at 50 yards, with a scope. Several things wrong with that scenario, from my stupid days: Bullet should have been sized to .512", and twist should have been half as fast, 1:20" would be nice. That is the standard twist for .500 Jeffery, C.I.P. I need to build a .500 Jeffery and outfit it with Sharps 1874 barrel sights. Finally a use for the .500 Jeffery ! Hey ! A lot of .45-70 rifles use a 1:20" twist. Just trying to bring the thread back to .45-70: sharpsguy shoots at 1000 yards with a 1:18" twist .45-70. That 480-gr PH slows down at a slower rate the farther along it gets. Penetrating air at 1000 yards and penetrating buffalo at whatever range do have similarities. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yessir, both my 50-90's are 22 twist, would handle your Triple 7 bullet with ease, my Turnbull 50-110 WCF has a 20 twist barrel, it spins a 700gr grease groove bullet with ease at 1240 fps over black powder. 500 Jeffery? now you're starting to talk about work again, like I feel after shooting my 505 Gibbs for a session off sticks, iirc it has an 18 twist barrel, you can feel the torque. Yes on sharpsguy, and correct on the slower they start the less velocity they lose, had an old friend laughing at me one day with my Sharps, holy chit man, that thing is barely cracking the speed of sound..............yes I said, and my 300 mags lose three times the velocity in half the distance..........I could see that I had strained his cranial pea with that one. | |||
|
| one of us |
Applicable to .45-70 and .50-90 cast bullet sizing for BP loads with WW alloy, grease-groove bullets: Question, please: What do the BPCR gurus say the size of the bullet should be in relation to the groove diameter of the barrel? For groove diameters of .456" .457" .458" .459" or .510" or .512" ... ... Do you just size them to groove diameter? Or do you size them smaller by .001" or .002" and expect the BP to obturate them? With smokeless, powder-coat paint, and gas check, I would use harder alloy and size them to .002" bigger than groove diameter. But I am still considered ignorant on BPCR stuff. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have had far and away the best results with grease groove bullets shooting black powder to size to groove diameter or a thousandth less. Forget over groove diameter--the lead will find somewhere to go and will fill whatever grooves you have. A bullet that is over groove diameter becomes a mangled, distorted, and out of balance mess by the time it gets through upsetting and is forced into the rifling. FAR BETTER to let the bullet upset into the rifling and custom fit itself into the barrels' interior. | |||
|
| one of us |
Of course that speaks only for the soft-cast, plain-based, grease-groove-lubed bullets and BP. Hard-cast, gas-checked, and powder-coat-painted cast bullets sized .002" over groove diameter, propelled by the more gradual burn of smokeless, will shoot with the best. Or does that only happen with the .458 Winchester Magnum throat ?  Above is an accurate, nonfouling, full-case load with no filler, using AA-2495 and an F-215 primer in a Hornady case. Bullet is sized .461" for a .459"-grooved barrel. OOPS. Back to .45-70: The Speer manual plays it safe with these pressure limits: Trapdoor actions: 21,000 CUP Lever-action: 28,000 CUP "Strong" actions: 35,000 CUP. IIRC, CUP = PSI in the special case of the .45-70 Govt. With Speer .458"/ 400-grain FNSP Trapdoor loads go up to 1795 fps, Lever-action loads go up to 1933 fps, Strong-action loads go up to 2107 fps, in the Speer Handloading Manual Number 15. That reference also says same 400-gr bullet when fired at 1799 fps vertically, 90* to ground, reaches a maximum altitude of 8,460 feet. "Maximum horizontal distance to first impact with ground @ 34* elevation is 3,231 yards." That is 1.836 miles. Probably not the favorite for "King of 2-Mile." | |||
|
| One of Us |
Has Speer recanted, RIP? Back in the mid '70s some of their loads seemed quite warm but those pressures you quote seem just starting loads compared to what I see in the ADI manual (mostly the same as Hodgdon where powders are just renamed?). Not sure where I stand on this as I've found some of the ADI base loads too hot in my .45-70. | |||
|
One of Us |
Rip The .002 over groove rule is about harder alloys and smokeless as you asked not just the 458 throat. Said another way, it’s all about the smack in the rear of the bullet when it is started into the rifling. Black powder really hits ‘em when loaded as Sharpsguy does. Hit an over groove soft bullet like that and bad things happen. Now having said that; I do think that the faster Smokeless powders in the 458wm a .459 bullet and bhn 12-18 alloy is a good thing. A little smack there doesn’t hurt anything. If I had a .460 or .461 I would be using it but I don’t. I don’t think my bullet would shoot nearly as well with a case full of surplus 8700 for example. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 45-70 bullets for elk, moose and grizz
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
.504" bore, .512" groove diameter.