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MOnte Calro stocks, Corbon fiber barrels, Thumbhole stocks, "enthusiastic" reloading, overloaded leverguns, and faster than required twist all have their fans....

and so do th RUMs, WSMs, WSSM, and SAUM do too....

jeffe


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:

There is nothing proven about twist and penetration.


Andy, Art Alphin and Norbert say there is. Smiler
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Posts: 7856 | Registered: 16 August 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:

There is nothing proven about twist and penetration.


Andy, Art Alphin and Norbert say there is. Smiler


HH, Rigby,Jeffery, Scheuler, hoffman, Howell, Westley Richsards, Ackley, O'Conner, and 100,000 other's disagree.

Hmm, so, an arrow has nil tiwst, yet penetrates like mad.... could it be more of shape, construction, and velocity than twist?


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Guys break it up for a sec. I don't post much anymore but I appear to have lost something that some of the original crew here might be able to help with. That being Mitch Carter, or contact details for him anyway.Last we spoke was May this year, but now both his emails are disconnected. Anyone know how to contact him?

Karl
 
Posts: 3530 | Location: various | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Jeffe,

get out to the archery range and watch those arrows spin in flight. The cool thing, you can adjust twist rate by varying the angle of the fletch.

Rich
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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I guess that's no one then.His health was poor the last we spoke which is why I hoped someone else had current contact.Well I'm outta here again. Carry on.

Karl.
 
Posts: 3530 | Location: various | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
Sadly I will not be doing a fast twist / slow twist penetration test ... because Jeffeoso has backed down from providing the rifle (on loan). Not sure if he does not wish to see the results, or if he does not wish me to see the gunsmithing!


Why do you attempt to make this personal? Pretty tiresome, even for my 2 year old nephew.

Again, you make too many assumptions.. Dan, How's your gunsmithing? When is the last time you MADE (not ordered) a rifle?

Go look at the twist poll, and, well, since you quote Andy, you must accept some form of plywood testing is accurate enough for you to use as facts.


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:


Why do you attempt to make this personal?


Jeff, it became personal when you made up things I did not say about twist and penetration and then pretended to quote me for just the opposite of what I said.

It's time for you to put up or shut up. Do you want to find out what happens in the real world shooting elephants? If not, then please do not address any more posts to me about twist as it does not appear you have any knowledge to contribute.
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:


Go look at the twist poll, and, well, since you quote Andy, you must accept some form of plywood testing is accurate enough for you to use as facts.


No I don't.
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:


Go look at the twist poll, and, well, since you quote Andy, you must accept some form of plywood testing is accurate enough for you to use as facts.



Awesome..
you dont' accept the results of a person you hold as an adherent to fast twist.

Tell us, Dan, what RESULTS that are independantly verifiable, do you hold to?

jeffe
No I don't.


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:


Why do you attempt to make this personal?


Jeff, it became personal when you made up things I did not say about twist and penetration and then pretended to quote me for just the opposite of what I said.

It's time for you to put up or shut up. Do you want to find out what happens in the real world shooting elephants? If not, then please do not address any more posts to me about twist as it does not appear you have any knowledge tocontribute.


LMAO

Dan,
you have been presented with an alternative to your "test" that, by your own statements, results in a ~40% loss of bullets. 60% is in F in most schools.

Made things up? Hardly.. How many rifles have YOU built to test twist and pressure? ZERO?

How many weeks and hundreds of rounds, have you spent load testing across three barrels with different twists? ZERO...

So, your "twist" expereince is a single shooting session, with a twist rate you, yourself, say is ineffective.

Making things up?

You want to repeat a test that you are certain has poor methodology, that would cost tens of thousands to repeat, and is invalid is testing methods?

So, you presented your "opinion" on test, without a single fact, otehr than art's say so, but disregard anything but shooting dead animals to prove it's' results on live animals.

You have been presented with a far and reasonable, verifiable test.

Should you be unwilling to participate in this test, it will probably proceed without you. your choice is clear, particpate and be part of the solution, or not.



Recall that whelen is somewhat of an expert in the matter.

jeffe


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
The test you propose would be interesting as well. It would be best to do it both in wood panels (such as in www.470mbogo.com) and in the plastic water buckets per the test designed by Andy.


quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
There is nothing proven about twist and penetration.

Andy, Art Alphin and Norbert say there is. Smiler

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Go look at the twist poll, and, well, since you quote Andy, you must accept some form of plywood testing is accurate enough for you to use as facts.


No I don't.


Dan,
Just wanted to refresh your memory on your previous statements, especially in regard to Andy and shooting wood panels. Do you support shooting wood, like Dave, or Not? Just a clear statement of your opinions, as it seems to be difficult to surmise from your posts.


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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No I don't, yes you did, no I did not, oh yes you did so...waaah! waaah! COME ON you two sound like a couple of 6 year olds. Surley this forum has not been reduced to this crap!!
 
Posts: 929 | Location: southern illinois | Registered: 29 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Big D,
there is some "Growth", though not all parties are interested. You really haven't been around long enough to see the string of "myths" busted around here..

For example - a bullet MUST travel 25 + yards to "go to sleep" ... So dave did an impact study, with all the bullets at the same speed on impact, from ~0 to 150 yards... and they all stuck in the same board!!

Though some good will come out of the penetration testing...

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/325104665


jeffe


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Jeffe and 500 grains...ya gott love em both! Opinionated...heck yes! Shy about voicing and defending those opinions? Gosh sakes NO!!

500Grains, you have just GOT to show for the Jeffe twist party. Last one (twist party) I went to I met this wonderful girl, and oh my!!! Them Texican girls is awful purty!

Don't like plywood? Make one of my recovery boxes instead.

Heck, I'll even pick you up in the Dodge and we can split expenses down and back.

Rich
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Jeff,

May I suggest that you have your intellect do some pushups so that you will be better prepared for these discussions? You seem to see everything in absolute terms which is not what real life is all about.

Plywood tests give you SOME information, but not reliable information, because elephants and buffalo are not made of wood. Instead they are made of about 80% water. So do not expect your plywood tests to be an effective predictor of how twist rates will compare in an animal. You can confirm the same with Andy.

Am I opposed to some information? No. However I would prefer a more realistic test, such as shooting elephant bodies. That will tell you more about how the twist rates compare in flesh then a plywood test. But I note that you have run away from the concept of actually shooting animals with your 1:18 twist compared to 1:10. Why hide from the real world? Not wanting the bad news?



quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
The test you propose would be interesting as well. It would be best to do it both in wood panels (such as in www.470mbogo.com) and in the plastic water buckets per the test designed by Andy.


quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
There is nothing proven about twist and penetration.

Andy, Art Alphin and Norbert say there is. Smiler

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Go look at the twist poll, and, well, since you quote Andy, you must accept some form of plywood testing is accurate enough for you to use as facts.


No I don't.


Dan,
Just wanted to refresh your memory on your previous statements, especially in regard to Andy and shooting wood panels. Do you support shooting wood, like Dave, or Not? Just a clear statement of your opinions, as it seems to be difficult to surmise from your posts.
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
Jeff,

... You seem to see everything in absolute terms ...
no, I see everything in memasurable terms, or at least measured tendencies
quote:


... elephants and buffalo are not made of wood.
Without a doubt, and by your statements, unpredictiable in measurable terms, from shot to shot
quote:


So do not expect your plywood tests to be an effective predictor of how twist rates will compare in an animal. You can confirm the same with Andy.
Andy stated that he saw better penetration with a faster twist rate.
quote:

But I note that you have run away from the concept of actually shooting animals with your 1:18 twist compared to 1:10.
Inaccruate, as usual. I have no issue with you going about shooting some dead animals, with your own stated unrepeatable results. Have at it.
quote:
Why hide from the real world? Not wanting the bad news?
The same question applies to yourself. Why won't your lay out repeatable measurable results and field test them

Dan,
your own statements are that wood is a test, and shooting animals is not consistant from shot to shot. You are welcome to join and/or perform your own tests. Though you tend to raise specters of gloom if everyone doesn't follow your way... Nothing prevents you from spending your own money (or MAKING a rifle) and going to shoot some carcases.. have at it, if that's what you want to do.

I'll spend MY money on trying a test that can be repeated anywhere in the world. You go do what you think is right.. it's your choice, after all

jeffe


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Andy's comments on shooting plywood (La Grange Stop Box) and effects of twist on penetration

quote:
Originally posted by Andy:
The stop box corresponds to elephant skull penetration with a FMJ RN by 95%.

Penetration increase with enhanced twist was only about 10% greater with FMJ RN


Andy


Dan,
so, for awhile, would you mind dropping the personal insults, inferences and slurs, and concentrate on a factual discussion.


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Jeff, I think you have misunderstood at least 80% of what I have written. Some of it you have intentionally misunderstood/lied about and the remainder you have simply failed to comprehend. If I am to tutor you any further, you will have to pay tuition in advance. However I must give you fair warning that your inability to understand what you read or to learn from it will probably make your tuition payments a waste of money.
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Best quote by a sometimes gunwriter, ever
quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:


By the way, did Boddington happen to mention the lousy performance of the Hornady .416 Rigby (Interbond) ammunition?


Don't be ridiculous! All screwups and defective products are held in the strictest confidence or future sponsorships would be in jeopardy.

Translation: Honesty is sacrificed in favor of financial gain.


And you got paid up much for the first elephant shooting article, and expect to make how much from the second?


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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I get paid nothing for articles. In fact, if they offered I would turn it down because that would turn it from a hobby into work. All costs of the daily rate, trophy fees, airfare, ground transport, tips, guns, bullets, etc. are entirely out of my own pocket. The bullets I test are bullets I paid for. None of it is free. In fact I even pay for my own magazine subscription.

Translation: Jeffe is off base again. And again. Again.
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
I get paid nothing for articles.

Translation: Jeffe is off base again. And again. Again.


Dan,
I posted that I had never seen a truer statement by a gunwriter, and asked you a question.

The answer to the question is "zero and zero"...


but again with the baseless personal attacks. I guess you feel that is effective. At least i didn't yet again get "Accused" of misquoting you.. by using a direct quote, just like every other time

Oh well, will you be joining on the plywood shoot or not?

jeffe


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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I have no problem learning things on this forum. I ennjoy different opinions and have voiced mine on several occasions, never been the shy type either. I just think it could be doen without all of the arguing.....but, I have been wrong before, SOOO....I will be like big John the ref on the ultimate fight championship fights. ARE YOU READY, ARE YOU READY, LETS GET IT ON!!! Have at it boys, I along with the rest of the forum will sit back and watch you two tear each other up. Can't say I did not try.
 
Posts: 929 | Location: southern illinois | Registered: 29 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Sorry Jeff, but due to the grammatical problems in your question, it read like a statement.
 
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
Sorry Jeff, but due to the grammatical problems in your question, it read like a statement.

dan,

i know, and i am proud of you for struggling through and eventually understanding the questions well enough to answer. that's really good work, on your part.

i understand this can be a difficult process, and i just wanted to say, thanks, i accept your appology in the matter. nice to see you behaving as an adult

have a great morning.


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Hello,
I talked to Hawk bullets about the .585 900 grain bullets and they told me they would be able to do it. For a round nose bullet with a 0.035" thick jacket, it would be $69.95 for a box of 50 bullets. Minimum order is 3 boxes. If anyone is interested PM me and maybe we can synchronize our orders.
 
Posts: 238 | Location: Southern California | Registered: 22 November 2004Reply With Quote
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Kenneth,
Hawk bullets are probably more than good enough for american game. These will be something like shooting a pure lead bullet wrapped in a copper "patch"... andy makes a good bullet, though ask yourself if you mean this to be a DGR round, or a plinker.

you could contact richie corbin and ask who's got a set of his dies in .585, and ask those people if they can make you a 900gr .585 bonded with a .035 c220 jacket.

or just post this bullet making.

best of luck
jeffe


#dumptrump

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 38379 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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FWIW

Barnes did a custom run of bullets in 458 for us recently

They are very easy to work with

If you guys want a big solid, give Barnes a call and see if they can make it work
 
Posts: 108 | Registered: 07 April 2005Reply With Quote
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