boom stick,

All meant in jest and taken well, thanks.
And thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
Do you own stock in the aluminium foil business?

Rip ...

No stock
But if you can, use the heavy duty tin foil. Not that pansy flimsy stuff. I'm talking about the kind that can cut you. If it reduces fouling and increases possible velocity, well, that's a cheap benefit.

bcelliott,

Great job on running those numbers.
You may have discovered the magic powder for the .458 Lott, and another one for the LongCOL .458 WIN,
with long and heavy bullets in a CZ 550 Magnum.
Thanks for giving me a peek at QuickLOAD V.3.8.
Maybe someday they will learn to do throat effects.
I won't hold my breath.
Ring-a-ding-ding goes THE MISSION bell.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
sambarman338,

My short-boxed .458 WIN can easily handle pointy-bullet loads up to 3.540" COL, feeding and even ejecting loaded/unfired rounds off the top of the box magazine.
Magazine is a repeater with loads up to 3.395".
LongCOL, pointy-bullet loads go into a buttstock ammo carrier.
One-shot kills make a single-loader good, you may never have to dip into the shortCOL/flatnose-filled magazine.
Shoot straight!

Rip ...

That's an idea, RIP, but I suspect my gut reaction would be to recycle without thinking after shooting at a deer.

I would certainly use of those butt-stock ammo holders were I to get a falling-block single loader, though.

I finally got that Nikon SlugHunter shipped to Los Angeles, where the repairman lounges, waiting for work, rarely getting any,
like the Maytag Repairman waiting for a washing machine to breakdown for the first time ever.



Might be a "groundbreaking," earth shattering event.
Holy San Andreas Batman!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
like the Maytag Repairman waiting for a washing machine to breakdown for the first time ever.

Rip ...

That situation may be changing/or have already changed. I saw an advertisement for Maytag Washer/Dryers. they no longer looked like a Maytag and the fine print said Maytag is a subsidiary of Whirlpool. It didn't brag about them being made in the USA so I presume they are shipped in from china or such. Our Maytags are about 20 years old and still going strong but I wouldn't have the same expectation for a new one.


Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
No stock
But if you can, use the heavy duty tin foil. Not that pansy flimsy stuff. I'm talking about the kind that can cut you. If it reduces fouling and increases possible velocity, well, that's a cheap benefit.

boom stick,

Being from Missouri, I'd like to see your results with that brainstorm before I try it,
for THE MISSION.



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
... Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

From bcelliott, QuickLOAD V.3.8 was "Free-bore Corrected" to reflect the published pressure testing results for AA-2230:



This should be considered good for conventional, jacketed, RNSP, 500-grain bullet and "New" AA-2230 in the .458 WIN.
This is "evidence-based" QuickLOADing.

From this baseline, the COL may be lengthened and the "Pmax" increased to 62,500 psi.
Should be very close to reality with the calculated pressure.
Velocity result is ignored.
That must be determined by chronographing your rifle, starting with a load 10% below your calculated maximum LongCOL load and proceeding as usual.

Other specific bullets and powders will require different corrections to match them to tested pressure data.

For .458 WIN Free-Bore Correction of QuickLOAD, adjust these values:

1. Imaginary case capacity, greater than real gross water capacity in grains.
2. Weighting factor of case configuration, between 0.5 (bottle-necked) and 0.75 (cylindrical), a unitless number.
3. Start pressure of bullet reduced by some amount, about -1100 psi for jacketed bullets.
4. Ignore the volumetric filling percentage calculated by QL, just be sure the actual fill is possible with minimal powder compression.

Above example by bcelliott used these values:
1. Maximum case capacity increased to overflow Grains H2O 100.080, about 5.35% greater than QL default of 95.0 grains H2O.
2. Weighting factor 0.68, closer to cylindrical type.
3. Start pressure for 500-gr Hornady RNSP was 2530 psi, a 1095 psi reduction from QL default of 3625 psi.
4. 72.0 grains of AA-2230 actually fits into the case with no compression, for this bullet with this COL.

A minus 1100 psi start pressure adjustment will not work for the GSC HV.
That would be a negative value.
Impossible.
The bullet would be sucked out of the cartridge as soon as the cartridge was chambered!

Rip ...

More thanks to bcelliott for this:



COL was increased to 3.340", SAAMI maximum.
Imaginary case capacity was 100.800 grains H2O instead of 100.080 grains H2O. Typo?
All other inputs same as in the previous example.
Really no significant difference for our purposes,
no need to re-calculate.
The main point is to show .458 WIN Pmax at shortCOL to be approaching redfaced .458 Lott pressure levels.
Yes, it can truly happen.
The .458 WIN can be loaded to higher than SAAMI MAP, why even as high as the .458 Lott SAAMI MAP.
Their brass is of equal strength.

Rip ...

Good catch, RIP. That 100.8 grain capacity was an error...should have been 100.08.

Any other bullets (like the GSC HV) that you'd be interested to run in QL? What parameter differences should I input? It would be interesting to find QL predicted best powder for that or other bullets loaded short vs longCOL.

Don't know if this has specifically been discussed somewhere in this thread, but is there an accepted minimum seating depth for the longCOL .458 Win? I know some might say caliber-length, but that's not a hard, fast rule, and a good crimp with a full powder charge can make up for less seating depth.

I would greatly appreciate inputting data for the 350 gr Speer and the 350 grain Woodleigh. 350 gr bullets are the most versatile for North American use in the 458.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I would greatly appreciate inputting data for the 350 gr Speer and the 350 grain Woodleigh. 350 gr bullets are the most versatile for North American use in the 458.

I'd be glad to, Ray B. Do you happen to know the cannelure/crimp groove seating depth on these bullets?

Shades of Ray Ordorica!
HANDLOADER'S DIGEST/1994, The 458 Revisited pp. 143-152 ... "A good thing can be even better when you go back to it."
I'll say!
That is what THE MISSION is all about!

Ray O. would be dazzled by today's bullets and powders for the .458 WIN.
He was barely getting 2500 fps with the first generation 350-grain Barnes X-Bullet charged with IMR-4198,
shortCOL, and it was the best available load.

Now we have the 350-grain TSX at over 2600 fps with COL of 3.440", and a sure crimping cannelure, in fact 3 cannelures!
That 3.440" COL is crimped on the last cannelure, closest to base of bullet.
Secured by Lee Factory Crimp and that deep cannelure, that bullet will not pull until you pull the trigger.

A "reduced" load delivering 0.33 MOA (3-shots) and 2590 fps MV from a 24-7/8" CZ .458 WIN barrel:
350-grain Barnes TSX
75.0 grains of H4198
WW Brass (interchangeable with Hornady brass)
F215 primer
3.440" COL, crimped
No powder compression, about 99% fill
48 degrees F ambient temp.
25" Shilen barrel's MV ought to be about 2650 fps with this "reduced-recoil" load.

I would hesitate to "FreeBore Correct" QL for any bullet for which I do not have reliable pressure tested data.

Some 350-grainer data with everything needed is for the 350-grain Hornady RNSP, listed in the Western Powders Handloading Guide Edition 1 (2017).

I'll copy that data below and see if bcelliott can make it fit in his QL V.3.8.
Probably would be close enough to be useful with the Speer and Woodleigh and North Fork 350-grainers for starting loads.
The Lee data (previous page of this thread) is for a generic "350 Grain Jacketed Bullet" with lots of pressures listed.
We must assume the barrel length is 24 inches (unspecified) for all of the Lee data.

Rip ...

Hornady .458/350-grain RNSP, bullet length = 0.935""
and see the rest below:

Western Powders Handloading Guide Edition 1 (2017)

Since we know and trust a FreeBore Correction of QuickLOAD for 500-grain Hornady RNSP and AA-2230,
may I suggest that we try it for the 350-grain Hornady RNSP and AA-2230:

Weighting factor 0.68
Start pressure 2530 psi
Imaginary case volume: I suspect this will be directly proportional to the distance of free travel of the bullet.
The correction for the 350-grainer might be considerably greater, like maybe on the order of 10% to 12% instead of only about 5% to 6% with the 500-grainer,
adjusted until the identical pressure is shown as in the tested data.

Then one might apply whatever is found for the Hornady 350-grainer to other 350-grainers with similar seating depths,
i.e., for other 350-grain jacketed bullets and other powders ... and see if it makes sense.

I will try it with the old QL powder panel for AA-2230 with 350-gr Hornady RN as shown in the Western Powders data above:
24" barrel
brass length 2.495"
COL 2.965"
Bullet length 0.935"
Pressure 53,218 psi
MV 2512 fps
78.0 grains AA-2230

Let bcelliott try it with the new QL propellant panel, please.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Any other bullets (like the GSC HV) that you'd be interested to run in QL? What parameter differences should I input? It would be interesting to find QL predicted best powder for that or other bullets loaded short vs longCOL.

I am still scratching my head over how to deal with GSC HV start pressure in the long leade.
Am continuing first with 350-gr Hornady as discussed above.

Don't know if this has specifically been discussed somewhere in this thread, but is there an accepted minimum seating depth for the longCOL .458 Win? I know some might say caliber-length, but that's not a hard, fast rule, and a good crimp with a full powder charge can make up for less seating depth.

That wonderful 350-grain TSX (1.229" long) at 3.440" COL for .458 WIN is seated to a depth of only 0.284"
and crimped in a deep cannelure with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
Powder is not compressed at 75.0 grains of H4198,
but it could be very easily if I go to 78.0 grains and +2700 fps in my Shilen barrel.
Shades of Bob Mitchell!

The 500-grain TSX Lee-crimped on the 5th and last cannelure of that 1.650"-long bullet, has a COL of 3.780" and seating depth of 0.365".
Rock solid again, and a 3-shot 0.19-MOA bugholer with 78.0 grains of AA-2230 for 2250 fps MV in the same CZ barrel.
Probably 2300 fps in the Shilen 25-incher.

The 1.440"-long 400-grain HV seating at 3.395" COL has seating depth of 0.540", but almost half of that is boattail so not contributing to neck tension:
Lee-crimp makes the seated driving bands show through the case neck.
80.0 grains of AA-2230 gave 2527 fps in 25" Shilen barrel at 55*F.
0.63-MOA 3-shot at 100 yards on a windy day, with a 1-4x24mm scope.
Still waiting for the calm
and maybe a fixed-10X scope.

I am prepared to say that the reports of need for a caliber-length of bullet being gripped by the case neck are greatly exaggerated.

Rip ...

The long jump with the 2.965" COL and 0.935" bullet length took a correction of only +6.76% on case capacity gross.
I am using 94.3 grains as the "Real" case capacity.
My QL default is 95.0 grains.
The free-travel difference must not be huge between the 350-grain and 500-grain Hornady bullets.


In QL V.3.5.03, this gave a perfect match to the Western Powders Co. pressure test of AA-2230 78.0 grains with 350-grain Hornady RNSP,
FreeBore Corrected:

Imaginary Case Capacity: 100.672 grains H2O
Weighting Factor: 0.68
Start Pressure: 2530 psi

Pressure = 53,218 psi (QL predicted) vs. 53,218 psi (lab tested)

24" barrel MV = 2477 fps (QL predicted) vs. 2512 fps (lab tested)

Now to see what QuickLOAD v.3.8 has to say with the new propellant panel?

Maybe some of the old powders have not changed.
H4198 with any 350-grainer would be the cat's meow.
I am sure RayB would be interested in some H4198 numbers.

Rip ...

I measured the base to first edge of the cannelure so a little of the cannelure should probably be seated below the neck to allow for crimp space, but the measurements were:

Speer 350 gr Flatnose .34"
Nosler 300 gr BTRN .40"
Woodleigh 350 gr RN .45"


As noted, probably a hundredth should be added for crimp space.

Ray B,

Shoot us some more of those specs:

Specified bullets with bullet weight and length, and COL with that bullet seated in the .458 WIN brass case.
Get out your calipers and measure 3 bullets and 3 dummy rounds.

And they are all flat-based bullets, right?
Except BTRN? WOW! Must be Ballistic Tip Round Nose?

If boat tail: Need length of boat tail and the minimum diameter and maximum diameter of boat tail also, best you can measure and eyeball without too much fuss.

We have to have a few "Real" numbers here to go with the "Imaginary" case capacity for free-bore correction of QuickLOAD.

Rip ...

I'll have to load some up so I can get the measurements (and I'll even post some photographs) but it will be tomorrow- I'm not as fast as I used to be. Yes they are all flatbase and the BTRN does stand for ballistic Tip Round Nose, which is really a strange looking bullet- kind's wonder what the designers at Nosler were thinking about when it was designed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP

I am prepared to say that the reports of need for a caliber-length of bullet being gripped by the case neck are greatly exaggerated.

Rip ...[/QUOTE)

That's been my experience for several years.

Here are some interesting results from my former CZ550 and the 350 TSX:

COL = 3.44 (crimped by Lee crimp die in bottom groove.

Case = Win
Primer = WLRM
Powder = 80 grs H4198

MV @ 15 feet:

2746
2745
2748
2748
2744
2746
2746

That was instrumental at 15'
It would shoot three of those into sub-moa.
A three year old bear got terminated with one of those at 97 yards.

My current Ruger Tropical with Mag-na-port and 24" barrel is very accurate shooting three @ 100 from 78 grs at 2675 fps. Will probably try 80 grs one of these days.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Thanks for reporting this in all its glory, Bob Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Here are some interesting results from my former CZ550 and the 350 TSX:

COL = 3.44 (crimped by Lee crimp die in bottom groove.

Case = Win
Primer = WLRM
Powder = 80 grs H4198

MV @ 15 feet:

2746
2745
2748
2748
2744
2746
2746

That was instrumental at 15'
It would shoot three of those into sub-moa.
A three year old bear got terminated with one of those at 97 yards.

My current Ruger Tropical with Mag-na-port and 24" barrel is very accurate shooting three @ 100 from 78 grs at 2675 fps. Will probably try 80 grs one of these days.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I have been wanting to bring that information here in such entirety,
but was afraid it would open up a can of ridicule and spill it all over myself by association.

People will refuse to believe it!

I tried up to 77.0 grains of H4198 with the 350-grain TSX and got only 2627 fps MV, corrected by BC = 0.278, 5-yard chronograph.
That was in a CZ take-off barrel of 24-7/8" length
on the M70, Ms. Chimera WinCZechster.

I had absolutely no pressure signs at 77.0 grains of H4198, but thought I was nowhere near Bob's velocity with my rifle,
so I quit until another day, like Scarlet O'Hara.

I have since found that the WinCZechster's barrel might be about 50 fps slower than my latest 25" Shilen barrel.

I also now note that I used the F215 primer instead of your WLRM, which I have heard might be greater in brisance, hotter than the F215.

Now that brings up your estimate of actual BC = 0.338 for this bullet.
Back when it first came out as the slick-sided X-Bullet of .458/350-gr spec, the BC was claimed to be 0.402 but now is 0.278!
Three deep cannelures on the side of the bullet must be a bad thing for the streamlining or ...
The George Bush terminology "missunderestimation" comes to mind, however.

Rip ...

Now, if only we had some pressure tested data with the 350-grain TSX and H4198, sumbuddy who know?
It would be like QuickLOAD Nirvana to find that.

Checking Michael McCourry's, Doc M's pressure data for the .458 WIN, fingers crossed ...

Rip ...

Here is my QL data for the 350 Hornady @53,218 psi with the requested inputs...



Notice that I had to adjust the case capacity to 97.278 grains to match pressures. This seemingly contradicts the shorter COL = greater effective case capacity hypothesis for now. The new powder data do make a considerable difference.

Another note: leaving all other parameters the same, upon adjusting the case capacity to RIP's measured value of 94.3 grains, the calculated velocity of this load becomes 2502 fps, a reasonable 10 fps off the measured book value.

RIP;

A couple comments that may help relieve some angst:

1) Before loading to 80 grs H4198, I had worked up to 80 using RL7 at 2700. That's the load that went moose hunting. It was accurate and consistent in July - August. When the moose hunt came up the first week of October in the far northern reagions of our fair province, it was obviously colder. I didn't get to squeeze the trigger on a moose anyway, but it was a good thing I didn't because when that load was fired at our range after the hunt in October, MV had dropped off by more than 100 fps. So, being very disappointed with RL7, I went to work to find a replacement. From research and experience with H4198 in multiple 45-70s, I thought it might be the best replacement for RL7.

I checked that powder for the 350 XFB in the Lott. Barnes #3, showed a max of 82 grs for 2732 fps. Seating the bullet long in the CZ, I felt that 80 grs would be safe in consideration of the long "freebore". It proved not only to be safe, but gave those excellent results cited above. And that is one of the Hodgdon Extreme powders, and that was confirmed from results over great differences in ambient conditions.

2) I have a "rare" (perhaps) NRA "HANDLOADING book published in 1981. Here is a quote from info on the .458 Win Mag:

"The working chamber pressure for the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge is commonly limited to about 53,000 c.u.p. The established maximum product average for factory ammunition is 56,200 c.u.p."

56,200 c.u.p. is 66,316 PSI according to Accurate Arms manner of converting cup into psi for the .458 WM.

My 500gr Hornady initial load for an unmodified Ruger #1 in .45-70 was sent to Accurate Arms for testing because I was using AA2015, as it was known at the time. From my 22" Ruger, I got an average corrected to MV of 2015 fps, a never before heard of such a load! Every writer was simply repeating what was published by Hornady (1800 fps).

When Bill Falen Jr. (Chief ballistician) contacted me by phone, his first words were: "You have just reinvented the .458 Winchester Magnum". They tested the load in a 24" test barrel and got an average of 2096 fps. PSI was never over 65,000. Average was 63,200. We talked for over 1/2 hour and he pronounced the load safe in the Ruger. I asked a Ruger Rep about the strength of the #1 in .45-70. His answer was simple: :While we don't recommend exceeding SAAMI specs, the #1 in .45-70 is comparable to the #1 in .458 Winchester Magnum in strength."

I've done a lot of experimenting, but I've also done my homework that has surprised a number of professionals. That's all I have to say about it.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

How important to the pressure is the primer type? I've read that switching from a standard to a magnum primer can raise pressures 10k psi. What type of primer (if any) does QL attempt to model? Certainly not accounting for the primer could change actual shot start pressures and muzzle pressures enough to throw off the calculated corrections involving effective case capacity.

53,000 psi is not max in the .458 Win Mag.

53,000 CUP is 62,540 PSI as per Accurate Powders. Compare their early manual in CUP with their later manual manual in PSI. The loads are the same, and the results are the same, except they have converted CUP to PSI. The formula they used is 1.18 x CUP = PSI.

Then, we don't load the 350 Hor. to the cannelure. It's loaded to a COL of 3.125" and crimped by a Lee crimp die.

Please don't obfuscate matters by giving data that doesn't harmonize with this thread

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Good stuff .458 Only and bcelliott.

QuickLOAD makes no allowances for primers, just like throats, eh?
They make a basket disclaimer of +/- 10% on results.

I gotta go deer hunting with The Knik Knocker, for a few days.

bcelliott may take over the QuickLOADING chores here for Ray B, if he would be so kind.
I might just have to pay for QuickLOAD for the third time to get the latest version.
Later Alligator.
After while Crocodile.

Rip ...

RIP was speaking of 78 grs of H4198 behind the 350 TSX, NOT the 350 Hornady. The Hornady is a "tougher" bullet. It has a gilding metal jacket with a harder than normal lead core.

I'm getting 2510 fps from 70 grs H4198 at 3.12 COL for the Hornady. But from the 350 TSX I'm at 2675 from 78 grs H4198. The pressure appears higher in the Hornady load.

Hodgdon shows 72 grs max for the 350 Speer (longer than the 350 Hornady) at 51,600 CUP (60,888 PSI) and 2548 fps.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
I am agreeing with everything you are saying.
To clarify, you are saying the Hornady 350-gr bullet is
"tougher" than most bullets, strongly constructed.
The 350-gr TSX is tougher still.

Rip ...

By my calculations you could use 15% bigger powder charge with 350 grainers as compared to 500 grainers.

Obviously that would not apply to 3031 burn rates as would not fit BUT 4198 burn rates etc.

If energy is the same as a 500 grin bullet at 2100 f/s then velocity of 350 grainer will be 2510 f/s.

However, in general when using very light calibre bullets you won't get quite the energy the calibre is capable of with the mid range to heavy bullets.

I'm not sure if additional measurements are needed, however loading the bullets without powder obtained the following results:
All cases were Winchester and trimmed to 2.50"
All bullets are 350 grain, SD .238

Woodleigh RNSN
Bullet length .949"
Seating Depth .45"
OAL 3.00"

Speer FNSP
Bullet length .99"
Seating depth .34"
OAL 3.11"

Nosler Ballistic Tip, Round Nose
Bullet length .9"
Seating Depth .40"
OAL 3.0"

I generally use a profile crimp rather than a rounded crimp, if that makes any difference.

Bob, sorry for the confusion. My QL calculation was in response to RIP's request (in this thread up the current page) for a comparison with his older QL for the purpose of tweaking the program to reflect Western book data (higher above in the page) for the Hornady 350 grain 2230 load at a COL of 2.965" which yielded 53,218 psi. It was not intended to find the best powder or load for a given bullet. What we've been attempting is some sort of method by which to correlate QL results with measured pressure/velocity data. It's not as straightforward with a straight taper cartridge as it is with a bottleneck one. It seems that there are a lot of potential QL fudge factors to obtain a good fit with measured data.

RIP, do you think that always lowering the suggested start pressure by 1100 psi is a given? I'm thinking that if we increased the case capacity within a certain percentage range and then also adjusted start pressure from recommended values within a certain range (either down or up) to compensate for both the throat and primer type, we might eventually zero in on some recommendations for QL adjustments for the .458 Win cartridge. I've read that magnum primers affect start pressures more than peak pressures, but I don't have any personal measurements to back that up.

I could begin by running QL calculations to compare with all the Western loads you posted and tweak QL to best match the pressure of each. Then we could see where that ends up...

I think what Bob is say is that the Hornady is a tougher bullet to push down a barrel than the Barnes tsx bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I think what Bob is say is that the Hornady is a tougher bullet to push down a barrel than the Barnes tsx bullet.

Would that really matter given the very long free bore of the 458.

Yes.

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Bob, sorry for the confusion. My QL calculation was in response to RIP's request (in this thread up the current page) for a comparison with his older QL for the purpose of tweaking the program to reflect Western book data (higher above in the page) for the Hornady 350 grain 2230 load at a COL of 2.965" which yielded 53,218 psi. It was not intended to find the best powder or load for a given bullet. What we've been attempting is some sort of method by which to correlate QL results with measured pressure/velocity data. It's not as straightforward with a straight taper cartridge as it is with a bottleneck one. It seems that there are a lot of potential QL fudge factors to obtain a good fit with measured data.

RIP, do you think that always lowering the suggested start pressure by 1100 psi is a given? I'm thinking that if we increased the case capacity within a certain percentage range and then also adjusted start pressure from recommended values within a certain range (either down or up) to compensate for both the throat and primer type, we might eventually zero in on some recommendations for QL adjustments for the .458 Win cartridge. I've read that magnum primers affect start pressures more than peak pressures, but I don't have any personal measurements to back that up.

I could begin by running QL calculations to compare with all the Western loads you posted and tweak QL to best match the pressure of each. Then we could see where that ends up...

Bevan,

I apologize for MY confusion. In part it has to do with poor vision from my one good eye. I'll have to have a cataract removed sometime this winter.

I was going to contact you personally, once I realized who was giving QL.

Thanks for all your help in the past.

Just to clarify some matters further that has not been discussed:

1) The hardness and nose shape of a bullet affects its start pressure immensely. I've proven that to myself too many times for it to be ignored.

For example: In a particular 35 Whelen, I could easily make 2600 fps+ from the 250gr Hornady and Speer bullets from a 22" factory Remington barrel. It had a lot of "freebore" and a magazine to match. But the 250gr Nosler Partition wouldn't allow even 2500 fps without pressure "signs".

The same thing is true (as previously mentioned) in regard to differences in construction between the .458"/350 Hornady (RN or FP) and the 350 Barnes TSX. The Hornady has a rather blunt ogive in a gilding metal jacket and a hard antimony-lead core. The TSX is pure copper with a more streamlined ogive and grooves to reduce pressure (and fouling).

So, 2510 fps from my current #1 Ruger in .458 WM is approaching max from "signs". That's from 70 grs of H4198, WLRM primers and Win brass at a COL of 3.12".

As mentioned, I'm getting 2675 fps from the 350 TSX and 78 grs of H4198, all else the same except the COL = 3.44". The pure copper, plus the shape and grooves allow a higher charge. Again, as revealed, I used 80 grs of H4198 behind the 350 TSX in my CZ550 without a hint of excessive pressure. I'll probably give 80 a try in my current #1 Ruger.

To simply list 350gr "bullets" (one example), as though they would all behave in a similar manner in PSI and MV is not understanding, or taking into account, the effects of an individual rifle, throating, chamber dimensions, shape and construction of the bullet, and condition of the bore... and then lots of powder that differ to some degree unless coming from the same batch.

2) About "signs": Every reloading manual that I've owned (started with) and do currently own, give this advise in similar wording: "Don't exceed recommended charges, but if there are SIGNS of excessive pressure reduce the charge by at least a couple of grains".

I've written at length on this point in both my former .45-70 manual and the current .458 Win Mag manual (that is not currently in print, but hopefully will be sometime in 2019). Unless we have a pro lab handy that is willing to help us with a reloading project, we are ON OUR OWN! And, the only suitable method remaining is SIGNS!!!

That's how I know that the 250gr/.35-cal Nosler Partition would NOT attain the same SAFE velocity as the Hornady or Speer. That is also how I know that I'll not get the same expected MV safely from the 350gr Hornady as from the 350 TSX from the same powder in my #1 Ruger.

The 350 SPEER, is another matter entirely. It is longer than the 350 Hornady, and has therefore a less blunt nose profile. I could safely attain the same MV from it in my #1 Ruger in .45-70 LT as from the 350 TSX at +/- 2500 fps. Not so for the 350 Hornady. I shot it at 2250 fps from the Ruger .45-70 with the long throat.

3) About primers: Several years ago when HANDLOADER magazine was still owned by Mr. Wolfe, I read an in-depth article on primers. I don't recall the author's name, but it was very long and detailed from extensive testing. The net result was that the WLRM primer proved to be "hotter" and the "burn" was longer than the more famed Federal 215. Over the past 20 or more years, the only primer I've stocked (while having tried several others, including F215) is the WLRM primer for all my rifles, most of which have been magnums -- and that includes my .45-70s. I've had more consistent results from those than any others.

If you've noted the results reported above of the 350 TSX from my former CZ550, from seven shots the extreme spread was 4. That was from H4198 and WLRM primers.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Thanks for clarifying the "tougher" bullet comment, and the additional wisdom on handloading.

I am going to switch my primer to WLRM instead of F215 and see if the Knik Knocker with 25" Shilen barrel can duplicate your results with H4198 and the 350-gr TSX.

I am back from a weekend of communing with nature.
Black bear hunting is being reborn in KY, and the area I am hunting does have a very limited "bear season" of sorts, small quota.
So, a Kodiak Deer Rifle is not entirely nonsensical here.
I tell Alderella (The Knik Knocker) that she is in training for Kodiak.



Rip ...

bc elliott,

How about a QL with H4198, any bullet or load you like. Just something to show the powder parameters they are using for that one now.
If Ray B is not using that powder, he ought to be, for whichever 350-grainer he likes.
I will compare it to my old QL parameters, pending me getting the latest version of QL.

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Bob, sorry for the confusion. My QL calculation was in response to RIP's request (in this thread up the current page) for a comparison with his older QL for the purpose of tweaking the program to reflect Western book data (higher above in the page) for the Hornady 350 grain 2230 load at a COL of 2.965" which yielded 53,218 psi.

It was not intended to find the best powder or load for a given bullet. What we've been attempting is some sort of method by which to correlate QL results with measured pressure/velocity data. It's not as straightforward with a straight taper cartridge as it is with a bottleneck one. It seems that there are a lot of potential QL fudge factors to obtain a good fit with measured data.

RIP, do you think that always lowering the suggested start pressure by 1100 psi is a given?

No, I do not think that at all. It was a "one-off" adjustment for that load only,
exactly as shown by Western Powders pressure testing.

I'm thinking that if we increased the case capacity within a certain percentage range and then also adjusted start pressure from recommended values within a certain range (either down or up) to compensate for both the throat and primer type, we might eventually zero in on some recommendations for QL adjustments for the .458 Win cartridge. I've read that magnum primers affect start pressures more than peak pressures, but I don't have any personal measurements to back that up.

Sounds very reasonable, logical, rational.

I could begin by running QL calculations to compare with all the Western loads you posted and tweak QL to best match the pressure of each. Then we could see where that ends up...

Certainly, later.
But first:
Let's compare an H4198 load. You post one and I will repeat it in the old QL version I have and see if they differ.
Take your pick of any bullet, maybe one of Ray B's bullets?
Then we will get around to the 350-grain TSX start pressure with H4198 loads and WLRM primer.
One thing I have always done with those TSX bullets is to call them pure/solid copper,
then reduce the start pressure by the percentage of their bearing length that this not bearing,
occupied by air space in the cannelures.
Any adjustment for Free-Bore Correction (FBC) would be on top of that to get a start pressure to be used.


Rip ...

Bob,

Thanks for all your reloading expertise and information...please keep it coming. I'm very much looking forward to talking with you again!

Ray, I wasn't able to exactly match your bullet length/seating depth, etc. for the load below, but I standardized your COL and went from there. Also, I was assuming your barrel length was 24".

RIP,

Below is the QL calculation. I picked the Speer 350 FN since both Bob and Ray mentioned it (Bob and Ray...why does that remind me of something?) Notes on this QL calculation: set case capacity to an arbitrary 100 grains; this load is 62k+ psi if case capacity is 95 grains; did not change suggested start pressure. (For what it's worth, according to QL, at the same load parameters, including pressure, H335 will beat 4198 by over 100 fps.)