That's an interesting evaluation of mounts, RIP, just when most other opinion had persuaded me that Talley must have been the best.

The punishment you have outlined would certainly test any system based on the B&L Custom one. So, the Pecar Champion constantly centred reticle concept looks even better.

JFE, if you're watching, does the Champion have a sleeve ahead of the reticle to stop it moving 'forward' in the tube under recoil?

Elk season is over and while I didn't get one, in our camp 1 out of 4 did get meat. It was a new area for my son and I. the area that we hunted in '16 & '17 was unproductive. The areas that we had hunted prior to that were ruined either by forest fires that burned so hot that they sterilized the soil and killed the seeds or there were management/ownership changes. So this year we tried an area only 15 air miles from last years spot, but considerably better habitat and carrying capacity. So we are looking forward to returning in 2019. Now the quandary. Most of the area where elk would be seen during shooting hours will be in old growth timber or second growth patches that range from 5 to 20 years in age. visibility in both situations is limited either by deadfalls or trees with limbs and leaves from ground level to several feet high. A few spots allowed visibility of 150 yards, but these were few and far between. Average visibility was 100 yards or less. So it would seem perfect for a 458 Win Mag with 350 grain bullets. However, my 458 is set-up more for 500 grain bullets and at 11 pounds isn't as handy as other options. One of those options is a 404 Jeffery. It can also be loaded to similar ballistics with a 350 gr bullet, and the rifle I have for it is much handier, 2" shorter barrel and 1 pound lighter. Both are M70s, and I think I have posted photos of them on previous pages. Oh, what to do? On the bright side, I have 11 1/2 months to sort it out, but come the end of October next year, I'm confident that I'll have one or both of them in tow when I leave home.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell guys.
I have more confidence in my old old version of QuickLOAD now.

Here is the printout with the proper numbers:
0.585" seating depth
1.174" bullet length
2.684" COL



I would go start at 45 grains or whatever seems to be actually about 85% to 90% full case with bullet seated.
QuickLOAD may be wrong on % case fill too.
Work up to 95% to 100% full and chronograph along the way.
Stop at 1700 fps or thereabouts.
That would be plenty of thump.
Less velocity for endpoint if less thump desired.
Find a best-accuracy load somewhere along the way.

Rip ...

RIP, a member on the Lever-action forum has brought up the matter of bullet length again and so, like that dog returning to its pavement pizza, I'm wondering if my squishing the length of those bullets may have changed the Quickload equation, particularly if they might lift pressures.

A small proportion of the ones I squished do not appear to have suffered lateral expansion in the body or the bore-hugging forward area, which I have polished with steel wool, to be sure, reducing its diameter about one thou and minimising the seam.

The new details are as follows:

The original bullet averages 1.175" long but the 468-grain squished ones are only about 1.15".

I also filed down some unsquished bullets to try to widen that meplat. The ones filed down now average about 1.13" but they only weigh about 460 grains.

Thanks if you or anyone else here can tell me if these shorter bullet lengths reduce or increase pressure.

If you are loading them to same seating depth as before, the predicted pressure and velocity for the shorter bullet of same weight will be unchanged.
If you load that same-weight, shorter bullet to the same COL as before (lesser seating depth) then pressure and velocity will be reduced.
The difference will be miniscule.

Same applies to the lighter-weight, shorter bullet, except pressure will be decreased with same seating depth and shorter COL.
Pressure will be reduced even more with same COL use as before, thus shorter seating depth.

Any reduction in bullet diameter will reduce velocities and pressures.

No significant differences, or any changes are in the direction of safety.
Start at about 45 grains WIN-748 and work up.
Use filler if less than 90% case fill when bullet is seated.
QuickLOAD estimates are just estimates.

Rip ...

Ray B,

You are blessed to have a son who hunts elk with his Pop.
What 350-grain Elk bullets are you particular to, whether .458 WIN or 404 Jeffery?

Rip ...

Ray B ; 2 words , Spruce King !
Your 4 naught 4. Sounds like its better set up for that job.
Good luck.
Since my 458 will probably never see an elephant. But it has been thru hundreds of miles of old growth and regent coastal conifer forest. Its kinda just the right size , length and weight for it.

RIP,
My son is 38 and lives near Seattle so the last three years we have met at the intended hunting camp and when done, left in different directions. On the way home last night I was thinking how fortunate that he's back to liking me. for several years he didn't have much time for me. So life is great.

For the 458 I've found that the Speer 350 gr Mag Tip works quite well at least as far as accuracy and milk jugs go. I haven't shot any animal with it.

For the 404 the Selway Armory in Missoula was closing out some 350 gr Woodleighs a year or so back so I got a few hundred bullets. I haven't shot it a great deal, but from what I have done, they seem to work well, but again, haven't shot anything with it either.

Ray B ;
I can vouch for the 350 gr Speer Hot Core . Its a good bullet. Its not as good or tough as a 350 gr X or TSX. But , it is a good game bullet.

Thanks CTF,

I got a hundred North Fork .423 340 gr bullets recently and if I were to go after something bigger than a spike (where we hunt the general tag is only for spikes, a special draw permit is needed for branch antler) I'd consider using them, but as you say, the Mag Tip is a very good bullet for the simple but time-tested design.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If you are loading them to same seating depth as before, the predicted pressure and velocity for the shorter bullet of same weight will be unchanged.
If you load that same-weight, shorter bullet to the same COL as before (lesser seating depth) then pressure and velocity will be reduced.
The difference will be miniscule.

Same applies to the lighter-weight, shorter bullet, except pressure will be decreased with same seating depth and shorter COL.
Pressure will be reduced even more with same COL use as before, thus shorter seating depth.

Any reduction in bullet diameter will reduce velocities and pressures.

No significant differences, or any changes are in the direction of safety.
Start at about 45 grains WIN-748 and work up.
Use filler if less than 90% case fill when bullet is seated.
QuickLOAD estimates are just estimates.

Rip ...

That all makes sense to me, RIP. Looking back, I wondered what the length of the bullet, beyond what was occupying possible powder space, really had to do with the calculations.

Thanks very much.

sambarman338,

In QuickLOAD, if the only thing changing is the bullet nose length and overall bullet length,
and the seating depth is kept the same
and bullet weight is kept the same
and bullet diameter is kept the same:

Then whatever the COL may be, the pressure and velocity do not change by a single unit.
Makes sense.

Where QuickLOAD fails is in modeling throat effects on pressure and velocity.
It has no inputs for throat measurements and bullet ogive.

So you must make sure the bullet nose ogive fits the throat of your rifle about the same as before,
in order to depend on the QuickLOAD to be consistent for your loads.
Therefore, if you shorten the bullet nose, then shorten the COL by the same amount,
thus keeping seating depth the same,
just in case you bulged the nose ogive a bit.

It is time to jump in and shoot a starting load and work up from there.
You do not have a .458 WIN throat on your 45-70 Govt, so you will not be able to load it LongCOL anyway.

I think QuickLOAD is about 100 fps slow and over 10,000 psi high on what is really going on with the .458 WIN,
based on my SWAG.

Ray B,

I forgot about the Speer Mag-Tip .458/350-grainer.
Good bullet:

"Even though 50 grains lighter, the 350-grain bullet normally out-penetrates the 400-grain"
(Speer FNSP 400-grainer designed for the 45-70 cartridge)
"due to its tough, heavy jacket that was designed for 458 Magnum velocities."
So said Speer, but you knew that.

I bought a bunch of .416/350-grain Mag-Tips once upon a time.
They are great for any .416 rifle, as well as sizing down to .411, .410, and .408 for use in several different rifles.

I have had wondrous results with North Fork .423-cal bullets, one-shot buffalo/bison bullets.
I hesitate to recommend any of my top 404 Jeffery loads (VARGET)
because my rifle has had the throat free-bored (PSFB-style) and my barrel is a loose McGowen with 1:10" twist,
same as barrel make that CZ USA used on their factory 404 Jeffery.

You have two great rifles for use as
Kodiak Deer Rifle
African Sheep Rifle
Timber Elk Rifle

Of course I am now a bit partial to the .458 WIN for any of those uses.

Rip ...

overhead view of area my son and I hunted this year. It consists of ground that is either up or down, depending on your direction of travel. the flora is 1. meadow, 2. old growth forest, 3. second growth, aerial planted and in stages of growth, 10 to 25 years.


the meadows are where the elk spend the dark hours, feeding and frolicking. then prior to dawn they move into the most inaccessible areas of old growth. Visibility and travel in the old growth is limited by downed trees of all sizes and brush in any area that did get some light. Finding the elk bedded in the area prior to them seeing you is a significant challenge, but that is what hunting is. If I wanted easy meat, the grocery store has a cooler loaded with it.


I'm inclined to get some more of the Speer 350s for the 458 and give it a real workout between now and next October, as well as learning well the trajectories of both 404 and 458 350 gr bullets

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I think QuickLOAD is about 100 fps slow and over 10,000 psi high on what is really going on with the .458 WIN,
based on my SWAG.

RIP, how do you accomodate these real-world velocity numbers for the .458 Win in your QL calculations? Personally, I've found that if I increase the maximum case capacity from the standard 95.0 grains up to either 100 or 101 grain ballpark, it seems to match my velocities and estimated pressure much better without any other changes in the program. In your opinion, is this because of the long throat, or because QL in general doesn't do well with straight-walled cases?

(Disclaimers on the QL case capacity increase: Shot start pressure needs to be tweaked depending upon bullet type, and filling ratio may be off.)

quote:

You have two great rifles for use as
Kodiak Deer Rifle
African Sheep Rifle
Timber Elk Rifle

Of course I am now a bit partial to the .458 WIN for any of those uses.

Talk like that gets me thinking of a Ruger African in 416 Ruger. Relatively light at 7 lb 13oz. Ruger rings and a light scope.
It's got a little more diameter than the 375 Ruger, which would also work pretty well for the elk. Maybe even better if shooting a GSC bullet at 3150 fps!! Speed does seem to produce more dramatic, short tracking a little more often.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
sambarman338,

In QuickLOAD, if the only thing changing is the bullet nose length and overall bullet length,
and the seating depth is kept the same
and bullet weight is kept the same
and bullet diameter is kept the same:

Then whatever the COL may be, the pressure and velocity do not change by a single unit.
Makes sense.

Where QuickLOAD fails is in modeling throat effects on pressure and velocity.
It has no inputs for throat measurements and bullet ogive.

So you must make sure the bullet nose ogive fits the throat of your rifle about the same as before,
in order to depend on the QuickLOAD to be consistent for your loads.
Therefore, if you shorten the bullet nose, then shorten the COL by the same amount,
thus keeping seating depth the same,
just in case you bulged the nose ogive a bit.

It is time to jump in and shoot a starting load and work up from there.
You do not have a .458 WIN throat on your 45-70 Govt, so you will not be able to load it LongCOL anyway.

I think QuickLOAD is about 100 fps slow and over 10,000 psi high on what is really going on with the .458 WIN,
based on my SWAG.

Thanks RIP, with luck I'll get to the range next Monday. I'll just try working up loads with the unaltered cast bullets for a start. When I get where I want with them I'll load the shortened ones, just for use in the magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:

RIP, how do you accomodate these real-world velocity numbers for the .458 Win in your QL calculations? Personally, I've found that if I increase the maximum case capacity from the standard 95.0 grains up to either 100 or 101 grain ballpark, it seems to match my velocities and estimated pressure much better without any other changes in the program. In your opinion, is this because of the long throat, or because QL in general doesn't do well with straight-walled cases?

(Disclaimers on the QL case capacity increase: Shot start pressure needs to be tweaked depending upon bullet type, and filling ratio may be off.)

bcelliott,

Thank you for ringing THE MISSION bell.

Tweaking QuickLOAD to simulate the free-bore effects of the .458 WIN
has been refined for a comparison to actual pressure data, not just my SWAG.

It works very well for AA-2230 and a conventional, jacketed RNSP 500-grainer, e.g., Hornady:

1. Increase the gross case capacity by 8.0 grains of water, from 94.3 gr (my actual) to 102.3 gr .
In this example, 72.0 grains of AA-2230 is a 99% fill at COL of 3.310".
It becomes an 89% fill with the correction. This makes sense.
The long free-bore effectively increases case capacity to greater than that of the .458 Lott,
and this small adjustment is less than the 12.498 grains of water displaced by 0.3" length of 0.458-caliber cylinder.
The unreality of accepting an actual 99% fill as an 89% fill is ignored,
just like with the ludicrous pressures calculated by QL if no adjustments are applied.
2. Use a QL "weighting factor" of 0.68 for the .458 WIN.
A straight-case factor is 0.75 at most, bottle-necked-case factor is 0.5 at minimum.
This tiny adjustment is no big deal.
3. Reduce the jacketed bullet start pressure from 3625 psi (default) to 2530 psi (-1095 psi)
or roughly -1100 psi.
This makes sense too. Bullet free-travel in the long leade might ease the start pressure to some degree.

Actual pressure data from Western Powders, Co.:
24" barrel, 1:14" twist, F215 primer, WIN case
500-grain Hornady RNSP, COL 3.305" (3.310" quoted in the Lee Manual for same fps&psi)
AA-2230 powder 72.0 grains:
2,159 fps
53,808 psi

Applying the above to QuickLOAD without correction, except using the rounded up 3.310" COL, which, if anything, should reduce pressure a bit:
AA-2230 powder 72.0 grains:
2,183 fps
71,120 psi

Reality: 53,808 psi
QuickLOAD: 71,120 psi

I shall continue ringing THE MISSION bell with scans of the QuickLOAD example, in separate replies below.

Rip ...

QuickLOAD bumfuzzled by free-bore of the .458 WIN:

QuickLOAD with fudge factors to correct for free-bore of the .458 WIN:

As you see, the tweaked-QL is only 1 psi lower than the laboratory tested pressure.
The tweaked-QL is only 55 fps slower than the laboratory result for MV.
There is that much velocity variation possible from one rifle to another.
My fast Shilen barrel beats my CZ barrel by about that much.

Rip ...

The real pearls for THE MISSION are the data from Richard Lee's monumental work,
MODERN RELOADING Second Edition.
He has tabulated pressure test data from numerous sources.
Trust this.
Excerpts "for book review purposes" follow below.

Book review: Wonderful, just wonderful book.

Rip ...

Now, with my tweaked-QL I can show what can be accomplished by merely increasing the COL from 3.310" to only 3.340",
which is the SAAMI maximum COL for the .458 WIN
(only 0.030" length increase of COL)
plus
allowing an increase of the SAAMI MAP of 60,000 psi for the .458 WIN
to the higher MAP of 62,500 psi assigned to the red-faced .458 Lott.
Coming up, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Generic .458 WIN rifle and load (MAP 62,500 psi, same as the .458 Lott):
24" barrel, 1:14" twist
500-gr Hornady RNSP
COL 3.340"
AA-2230 76.1 grains maximum:

MV = 2193 fps @ 62,353 psi

MV might be 2248 fps (or more!) from my 25"-Shilen-barreled Knik Knocker.

Rip ...

Ray B,

That is an awe inspiring landscape.
Inspire some awe in the elk, with your .458 WIN,
for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

sambarman338,

My short-boxed .458 WIN can easily handle pointy-bullet loads up to 3.540" COL, feeding and even ejecting loaded/unfired rounds off the top of the box magazine.
Magazine is a repeater with loads up to 3.395".
LongCOL, pointy-bullet loads go into a buttstock ammo carrier.
One-shot kills make a single-loader good, you may never have to dip into the shortCOL/flatnose-filled magazine.
Shoot straight!

Rip ...

From the loading data it appears that powder 2230 is the favored one. I don't have any of that so will have to make do with the powders of similar burn characteristics. Now, to see which powders fit that criteria.

RIP, it appears that my version of QL has some different numbers for 2230 powder (a0, etc.) than yours. I input all the same parameters as yours, but as you can see, my pressure is lower, and a few other calculated results are a bit different. Have I missed something else? What's your take?

Question
Would you be willing to do an aluminum version of a paper patch on these bullets then put through the sizing die to see if they can be run faster with less barrel fouling?

Reynolds wrap bullets?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


Rip ...

How would aluminium be on the barrel. It oxides very quickly, although the oxide seals it from the air/oxygen and thus you saucepan does not rust away

If my memory is working isn't aluminium oxide used for grinding wheels.

I don't know if it would have similar results, but I recall aluminum cleaning rods falling out of favor for cleaning rifle barrels because of abrasives from either its oxide or particles sticking to the rods.

boom stick,

Did you forget to take your medication today?

Thanks for generating sane responses from Mike and Ray. I won't be giving any thought to aluminum-patched bullets.
There is plenty of better material to work with, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

bcelliott,

So, these two propellant factors changed from my old V.3.5.03 to your new V.3.8 of QuickLOAD stored propellant profiles:

1. "Pro- or Degressivity Factor a0": OLD = 3.5000, NEW = 2.8226

2. "Factor b": OLD = 1.8216, NEW = 1.7231

Also "Useable Case Capacity (calculated by QuickLOAD): Old = 82.682 grains water, NEW = 82.677 grains water

I cannot change those three values on my old version. All other values agree, OLD with NEW.

Explains our differences.
I would have to pay to update my old QuickLOAD.
I do not care to pay for that thing a third time.

It has been reported that Western Powders Co. reformulated AA-2230 and AA-2460 in 2016,
perfecting their ThermoBallisticIndependence.
Maybe your values are the latest values, and the change is for the better.
There is no "ambient temperature" input on QuickLOAD.
I guess we assume 70*F and SWAG for any different temperatures.

Now the .458 WIN with NEW AA-2230 rocks for sure.

What do you get if you use the
0.68 weighting factor,
2530 psi start pressure,
Hornady 500-gr RNSP bullet (like in your previous run)
COL 3.305" (like in the current Western Powders data)
AA-2230 72.0 grains
and whatever case capacity you can fine tune to correct for throat on the .458 WIN?
Velocity is secondary, closely matching the pressure is the primary interest.

This underscores that throat correction of QuickLOAD is necessary, whatever the powder used in simulations.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

You have two great rifles for use as
Kodiak Deer Rifle
African Sheep Rifle
Timber Elk Rifle

Of course I am now a bit partial to the .458 WIN for any of those uses.

Talk like that gets me thinking of a Ruger African in 416 Ruger. Relatively light at 7 lb 13oz. Ruger rings and a light scope.
It's got a little more diameter than the 375 Ruger, which would also work pretty well for the elk. Maybe even better if shooting a GSC bullet at 3150 fps!! Speed does seem to produce more dramatic, short tracking a little more often.

Heck yeah!
If the bullet can take it, speed is no boogeyman for the hunter, but it is for the critters.
Yep, the GSC HV is the common folk's Walterhog.

Denyin'Ross thought the .458 WIN had spontaneously aborted.
Boy was he wrong!
It is a fully mature cartridge now.


Rip ...

Pioneering is often a target of ridicule till something goes well. People shoot aluminum bullets. This would be a quick easy way to see if there is a benefit in using aluminum foil for velocity, sealing and rifling engagement. What is there to lose if you shoot a few rounds and compare? You could even put a copper ass gasket over the aluminum to prevent said possible side affects. Wouldn't it be a hoot if a tinfoil hat did some good?

Meds on.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
bcelliott,

What do you get if you use the
0.68 weighting factor,
2530 psi start pressure,
Hornady 500-gr RNSP bullet (like in your previous run)
COL 3.305" (like in the current Western Powders data)
AA-2230 72.0 grains
and whatever case capacity you can fine tune to correct for throat on the .458 WIN?
Velocity is secondary, closely matching the pressure is the primary interest.

This underscores that throat correction of QuickLOAD is necessary, whatever the powder used in simulations.

Rip ...

RIP,
You can see that with your requested inputs, I had to adjust the case capacity to 100.8 grains H2O to match the given Western data pressure of 53,808 psi. The velocity is at 2093 fps, down from 2159 fps in the given data.

Below is a QL comparison between 2230 and CFE223 powders at approximately 62300 psi. All input parameters are the same as in the last post for 2230.

First is 2230:



Below is CFE223. Note the increased velocity with CFE and the pressure/velocity trace comparison between the two powders. The CFE load will be compressed about 7% if a case capacity of 95.0 grains is used as the nominal input.




This is why I believe and said in a previous post that CFE223 might be the highest velocity powder with 500 grain bullets in the .458 Win. As of yet, I have not seen a single mention of the use of this powder in .458, probably because it is believed to be too slow. It seems to be impossible to get enough powder in the case to be dangerous...