quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
That's too bad RIP !

Thanks for the condolences, CTF.
My B-52 Gauge shotgun for now, with scope removed for express sight use on charging treerats at 15 yards:



Might as well make the best of it. Maybe spiff her up with a new safety as well as a new chamber and whatever else can be done to ease her suffering,
while she is at the Gun Shop and Spa for wayward rifles.

Rip ...

How Elmer Keith really felt about it,
THE .458 MAGNUM
GUN NOTES Volume I, pg. 119 (from Guns & Ammo column in 1968):

"I have a few super-accurate .458-caliber rifles. One is a Super Grade old Model 70, restocked to my design in fine English walnut by Nate Bishop, with the barrel cut to 22 inches ... For a time, I had a Leupold 4X scope on it in Buehler mounts and it would cut cloverleaf groups at 100 yards with 510-grain Winchester factory loads ... Even with the iron sights, it will stay in 1-1/2 inches at 100 yards. This Winchester weighs 8-1/2 pounds with iron sights."

"The next rifle is a Mauser, completely built by Iver Henriksen on an F.N. action with a 24-inch premium Douglas barrel and an Italian walnut stock to my design, fitted with a K-3 Weaver scope with post reticle and crosshairs in Redfield mounts ...
Don Martin fired a three-shot group at 100 yards that measured 9/16 inch, center to center. I fired a 3/4 inch group, center to center, and then Brian Shanks fired a three-shot group of just 7/8 inch, which well proved the accuracy of this fine rifle."

And the third rifle described in this passage by Elmer was his Champlin & Haskins "Keith Grade" .458 Win. which he used to test the new ammo by Remington,
both softnose Remington 510-grainers and 500-grain steel FMJ:

"Judge Martin and I took this and the Champlin & Haskins rifle to the range, and found that it shot to exactly the same elevation as the Winchester ammunition and was just as accurate. In fact, it would make the bullet hole just a little larger with each shot at 100 yards until the barrel heated so that heat waves distorted the target."

Elmer's summary statement:

"The .458 is one of our most accurate big-game cartridges and is flat enough for our heavier game up to about 300 yards if you know your rifle."

Rip ...

I never had a problem with the triggers in the Mark X action. But I know several people that did. I wish they had made slightly modified military trigger in them. Really great action. But the trigger And safety aren't in keeping with the strengths and abilities of a 98 Mauser action. In my humble opinion at least.
The trigger in my 375 Whelan A.I. ( military 98 Mauser) is very nice , and ttbomk it's a military trigger . the Canjar trigger shoe is aftermarket tho.

I've got these on a couple of Whitworths and an FN and like them:

Trigger and safety very cost effective compared to some other alternatives.
Nice fit for my Sunday-go-to-meetin'-stocked .458 Win.
For squirrels and such.

Rip ...

More great Mission Support from 4sixteen:

That makes me feel good about using 18.5 grains of Blue Dot in my B-52 Gauge/.458 Win. shot loads with 400-grains of #7.5 shot.
Especially since the long-throated .458 Win. has greater effective case capacity than the short-throated .458 Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
RIP,

My .458 Lott reduced load safe in my rifle (only!) is 25.0 gr of Blue Dot and a small tuft of dacron fluff to keep the powder against case bottom with the Speer 400gr SPFN for 1500 fps muzzle speed. Blue Dot is a useful powder. Great for reduced loads in many other rifle cartridges.

Yep, a slow, flake, shotgun powder, great in such as the old bore rifles, etc.

The Speer 400gr SPFN isn't a bonded core bullet. Rather thin-jacketed suited for lower impact speeds. Have used the Remington 405gr SPFN. This one (shown with a 458 Hornady 350gr RN for comparison) was recovered from a Bull Moose which impacted at about 1650 fps and penetrated only about 15". The Speer 400gr SPFN would likely penetrate and expand the same.

I have stockpiles of both the Speer and Remington 400 or 405-grainers. Great for .45-70, easy to work with in the .458 Win., at .45-70 velocity levels of any sort.

This allows a chance to hammer again on any past failures of the .458 Win.
Blame it solely on the poor ammo, not the poor cartridge chambering of the rifle!
Bullet failures.
Powder charge problems.
Loose-in-the case crimping allowing deterioration, etc., etc.

The .458 Win. never had any problems except with the spotty, inconsistent, factory ammo problems in the early years after 1956 introduction.
Even then, existing powders (outside of RSA) easily allowed claimed factory ballistics, if only the factories had loaded them properly.

30 years later, in 1986, 2150 fps with the old-style Hornady RNSP was easily obtained from a 24" barrel,
with 71.0 grains of IMR 3031, which had been around since the beginning.
Better bullets and better powders are available now.
The .458 Win. was never to blame, just bad ammo.


Old-style 500-grain Hornady RNSP broke the right, on-side shoulder and three ribs on the left, off-side,
three main bullet fragments came to rest under the hide.
The cow moose never knew the bullet failed: Bang-flop.

Rip ...

I was company commander of the 23rd Eng Co when you shot that moose. What unit were you with? I will never forget ol' Col Needham!

AAZW,

Thanks for supporting The Mission.
I do recall you were at Fort Rich when I was at adjoining Elmendorf AFB.
In 2010 it was reorganized as Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, eh?
http://www.jber.jb.mil/
I was a flyboy attached to the C-130 unit that hauled your bulldozers out to the bush.
Now, I'm Birdman, evolved from the Gunnosaurs, adapting to survive this, the sixth great extinction of life on this planet,
promoting the .458 Win. as our salvation.

The local authorities at Fort Rich changed that drawing-permit moose culling to archery only after I killed one with an M700 Safari "elephant rifle."
They had a cow over my cow!

Rip ...

I had Woodelle Whitworth's stock stripped and Tru-Oil finished about 1990 in Tallahassee, Florida.
Made it prettier, brought out the grain better.
I did not know my arse from my elbow then, I see this today, upon removing the metal from the wood.
Turns out I did not get a hidden crossbolt installed in the web between the magazine and trigger wells.
The wood is still solid, never a sign of a crack, excellent grain layout.
Looks like "Circassian" walnut to me, wood that is worthy of use.
I'll get that extra cross bolt, and a third one behind the barrel lug too, also long overdue,
as well as some real (glued-in) pillars instead of the mere Mauser spacers.
Maybe she needs an entirely new barrel, 320-grit sanded stainless.
To be continued.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
AAZW,

Thanks for supporting The Mission.
I do recall you were at Fort Rich when I was at adjoining Elmendorf AFB.
In 2010 it was reorganized as Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, eh?
http://www.jber.jb.mil/
I was a flyboy attached to the C-130 unit that hauled your bulldozers out to the bush.
Now, I'm Birdman, evolved from the Gunnosaurs, adapting to survive this, the sixth great extinction of life on this planet,
promoting the .458 Win. as our salvation.

The local authorities at Fort Rich changed that drawing-permit moose culling to archery only after I killed one with an M700 Safari "elephant rifle."
They had a cow over my cow!

Rip ...

So you supported Brimfrost back in the day, huh? I was the LIB's asst Bde eng before I went to the 23rd. I had to go in early to certify the airfield snowplowing, and was the last to leave as I had to make sure no one left shitbags in the field. I let my NCO and driver/asst go home early and stayed with the Bde surgeon (who had to stay as long as we soldiers in the field). One night he woke me up and insisted I step out of the tent. There were about six or seven C130s, blades turning, lifting the last few units out.

I do remember how nice the USAF shitters were...heat, plywood floors, it was utopia.

Man, those were the days!! If the army would have let me serve in AK forever, I would have stayed for 30.

Yep, I was a lowly flight surgeon, O-3, had to turn out for those Operational Readiness Inspections at 3 AM quite too often.
Brimfrost, a deeply suppressed memory ...
For the rest of Alaska experiences, I wish I had never left. Family reasons.

Back to the B-52 Gauge shotgun, .458 Shotshell, 400 grains of 7-1/2-shot is 315 tiny pellets.

A 16" x 16" target at 10 yards grabbed 70% of them, and the gas check flying like a Frisbee,
overturned by the shot passing it by:



Marked with a green Sharpie.

Very quiet and low recoil shooting,
sort of a Daisy Red Ryder "woosh" and caress on the shoulder.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
458 WM loads can be fired in my 458 Lott rifle. Using 500gr bullets, for example, I use Re19 to get a muzzle speed of 1850 fps with good accuracy. The bullet base is compressed against the powder when seated as shown which stops the bullet from being driven into the case under recoil and minimizes the distance for it to engage the rifling.

Nice.
'Twould be nicer with an extra cannelure added where you want it, and a good crimp.

The TSX is great for crimping:



This .458 Win. Load might work in your .458 Lott also:



But it will have to be loaded shorter than the 3.780" accuracy load in the .458 Win.,
if you wish to use the available 5 cannelures on the TSX with the 2.800" Lott brass.
Hornady factory loaded ammo uses shorter brass than 2.800".
It was about 2.775" long after I fired it and resized it, no trimming.
Some experimenting might tell the best length of .458 Lott brass to work best with the TSX and your rifle.
I know what it is for the .458 Win. and the TSX 500-grainer.





This might be a bit much for a short-throated .458 Lott, though good in the long-throated .458 Win. of mine, the WinCzechster, COL 3.780":



I think I flinched and pushed one off to the left in that last target. My bad.

Rip ...

That looks like a good load RIP !
I'm gonna have to get crackin getting the Spruce King up and running soon.

CTF,

You betcha.
B-52 Gauge .458 Win. Shotshell is a winner and ought to improve the ability of the Spruce King to take spruce grouse.
You are no longer restricted to head shots.
Aim for center of mass.
I remember the ones I shot and ate in Alaska had a hint of spruce needle flavor to them.
Tasty, tender, juicy white meat.
Hell of a lot better than bear meat that is dark, greasy, tough and fishy-flavored.

Rip ...

I have taken Woodelle Whitworth to the Gun Shop and Spa for Wayward Rifles.
She is getting corrective surgery.

Still waiting for Alderella Ruger to recuperate.
I will zero Alderella with the "BENCHMARK" loads and then see how the B-52 Gauge loads do with SlugHunter scope.

Of course Ms. Chimera WinCzechster is always ready with a SlugHunter too,
for B-52,
or express sights for charging treerats,
either ought to do ...



Rip ...

RIP;
Have you tried the 1-4 Nikon Force1000 scope on a 458 or sumthin big yet ??

CTF,

That Nikon Blackforce works better on an AR-15.
I am not yet ready to subject the illuminated reticle to the .458 Win. full house loads.
But it might be OK with the lighter sort of .458 Lott loads that 4sixteen has been showing us.

Rip ...

Thanks for prompting a review of the .458 Win light loads:

I like the 300-gr TTSX:





Same load 5 days later, for longer range tests (300 yard drop when zeroed at 100 yards), Oehler 35P gives results consistent with ProChrono.
It was 2 degrees F warmer the second time around.
Corrected MV would be 2641 fps at 59*F, up from 2638 at 57*F, not due to such a small temperature change.
Just small sample size and randomness.









Rip ...

I like the 350-grain TSX, loaded a little longer, even better in my .458 Win.:





Rip ...

The 400-grain Barnes Original is an interesting plinker:





H322 did better than the above with one more grain of powder added:



I like the 400-grain HV best of all, at about 2500 fps.


Rip ...

The 3.550" COL is a joke.
3.495" is about as long as one should go in the .458 Win.



Since those bullets are about 2 bucks each, I am saving them for final accuracy testing by Ms. Alderella Ruger-Shilen with this load:




Here is the load to be tried through the box of any standard .458 Win.:


Rip ...

Tops as middleweight bullets for the .458 Win.:
450-grain North Fork softs and FP/CP solids, and the CEB 450-grain brass "Safari Solid."



@ 3.340" COL exactly, CEB 450-grain brass FN "Safari Solid": 2365 fps MV with 77.0 grains of AA-2230, 0.53 MOA for 3 shots at 50 yards.

Heck, if he didn't mind exceding SAAMI COL, a fellow could leave his brass 2.500" long and load the CEB Safari Solid to 3.355", LongCOL!





I bought a bunch of the North Fork "Ogived-Flat-Point" (OFP) copper solids from Mike Brady after he obsoleted them, before he sold the company.
So I got them "cheap" and am using those for basic load development applicable to all the North Fork 450-grainers available from North Fork currently.
Excellent bullets all.

North Fork 450-grain OFP Solid:
H4895:
79.0 grains of H4895 >>> 2335 fps MV, 0.52 MOA for 3 shots at 50 yards
81.0 grains of H4895 >>> 2382 fps MV, 2.50 MOA for 3 shots at 50 yards

AA-2230:
77.0 grains of AA-2230 >>> 2360 fps MV, 0.69 MOA for 3 shots at 50 yards
81.0 grains of AA-2230 >>> 2411 fps MV, 2.10 MOA for 3 shots at 50 yards

The accuracy node for the WinCzechster with 450-grain NF-OFP seems to be around 2350 fps MV.

Rip ...

4sixteen,

Thanks for a bit of levity after this review of .458 Win. jacketed bullet loads.

More details on page 11 of this thread,
briefly, here is the Dirty Harry African again: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Dirty_Harry

From Roger Rule, an excerpt for book review purposes, the earliest production Post-'63 African, the model of 1964:


Dirty Harry's 22"-barreled Post-'63-Pushfeed Winchester M70 African was an interesting choice for counter-sniper deployment on the rooftop of a church, at night.
"JESUS SAVES" in neon lights, with a .458 Win. muzzle flash.

The African rear sight and 3/32" silver bead are not ideal for such night ops.
That Nikon BlackForce set on 1X with red-illuminated reticle would be much better for initial engagement.
Probably with the 300-grain TTSX at 2600 fps, the scope would do well.
Lighter bullets might cut down on collateral damage too.

Rip ...

4sixteen,

We must keep digging for new material, please, for THE MISSION.
From page 12 of this thread:

Then came the sales blitz in 1964.
The ads worked on Dirty Harry, our man in Hollywood.









https://www.africahunting.com/...ssional-hunter.3619/



"My name (is) Katharine (Katie) and David Ommanney is my grandfather.
It is wonderful to see that he is still revered as one of the great white hunters of East Africa.

Monish,
Your initial post stating "He was one of the finest of PHs in Africa."
was very heart warming. He passed quietly in September of 2001
and he is mourned by those who survive him, friends and family, still to this day.
KOmmanney, Jul 6, 2012"



R.I.P. David Ommanney, in The Happy Hunting Ground now.

David Ommanney definitely made it to Sainthood, canonization by the "Church of .458 Winchester."
I am singing in the choir.
Saint Ommanney.
Right up there with Saint Aagaard,
in The Happy Hunting Ground.
Phil Shoemaker is still living, and though he may already be cannonized by possession of Ol'Ugly, he cannot be canonized just yet.

Rip ...

Well post count has past 2300 and so we are at 458 Lott/Ackley velocity levels

4sixteen,

That is priceless! Not the rifle, but just the fact that Jack O'Connor owned a .458 Win., in spite of Elmer Keith liking that chambering so much.

FN Mauser?



Why not just call it a Zastava?
An Interarms Mark X action with a custom barrel and stock by Al Biesen is surely just as good as a commercial FN Mauser action with same work by Al Biesen.

Rip ...

Mike,

Thanks for support of The Mission.
What, only 2300 posts? Yet it seems like so many more, and accumulated in so few days.
Time flies when you are having fun.

Rip ...

Ms. Woodelle Zastava Whitworth the .458 Win. has been to see her gunnecologist, who is a highly qualified mechanical engineer and Gunsmith.

Looking at her chamber with a bore scope, he says there are multiple rings in the chamber and it looks like a bad chambering job, rather than ringing by cast bullet and filler with AA-5744.

I understand how a sloppy reamer at the factory could do it. I do not understand the physics of ringing a chamber with AA-5744 and filler.
I also do not understand how I could have missed the chamber rings on the fired brass prior to now, if it was due to a bad factory chambering job, prior to 1990?

It is written off as stupid tax, blame uncertain.

It is also an excuse to run a .395 Ruger reamer into it and follow that with a .458 Lott reamer to make the neck a little longer,
for a 2.580" case length instead of 2.500".
The .458 Win. throat will not be touched by the process.
There is some slop from the factory in the throat too.
Losing 0.080" of its greater than 0.6725" bullet jump will not hurt anything.

Setting the barrel back and rechambering to .458 Win. might be inadequate to clean up the chamber.
A .458/.416 Ruger would easily clean it up, with no barrel setback ...



Sad to lose a .458 Win., but a .458 WinRuger is in the works.
It's really not like Woodelle is having a sex change operation, er, uh, gender reassignment surgery, excuse me, please.
More like she is getting a boob job,
and I am the boob.

Rip ...

That will be very interesting . If it works it might be great you might get 400 gr HV Ultimates up to around 2700 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
That will be very interesting . If it works it might be great you might get 400 gr HV Ultimates up to around 2700 fps.

2600 fps would be reasonable with the .458 WinRuger.
2500 fps with the .458 Win. is more than enough.
2400 fps with that same 400-grain HV in a ShortCOL, shorter-barreled .458 Win. is hard to beat.

Rip ...

4sixteen,

Thanks for support of THE MISSION.
Any historical mention of the .458 Win. is much appreciated.

So, Meehan and Thilenius publish in 1983, recommending the .458 Win. as best of bear stoppers.
Phil Shoemaker builds Ol'Ugly in 1984.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
In the 1980's 2 investigators working with the U.S. Forest Service became concerned about the dangers of Bear encounters in Alaska so they undertook a study to rank the stopping power of various sporting rounds. 4 factors were considered: energy, penetration, retained bullet weight and expansion. The 458 WM ranked first in their study.

And in 86 I started building my first 458.
The 375 is far more common than the 458 up here. And is many guy's deer rifle. In big part due to this study. I was pretty continuously out in the brush in 84 . By 86 I was working in town and got a copy of this. At the time I had a #1 in 45/70.

Another spectacularly lethal bullet failure with the .458 Win.
That .458 Win. is so good, works well even when the bullets disintegrate.
Go Pro camera on hat?

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
A surprisingly accurate and deadly shot taken with a 458 WM Ruger No.1 on a brush-obstructed Cow Moose on the run. Fell to a 405gr bullet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpDjYNlBnfU

Rip ...

https://huntforever.org/2016/0...=DangerousGameSafari

That 45-70 with 400-grain North Fork FP with BBW#13 nose profile was adequate:



Velocity was probably about 1900 fps MV:

"The next day we saw quite a few buffalo, but no mature bulls, then as luck would have it we came upon fresh buffalo tracks that were crisscrossing the road. We eventually spotted a small herd with a nice mature bull and Sam, Andrew and the tracker made a stalk while I followed behind. They went 50 to 60 yards before Andrew positioned the shooting sticks for Sam’s Marlin Model 1895 chambered in .45-70. He was shooting 400-gr. BBW No. 13 solids developed by Michael McCourry and produced by North Fork Technologies. Sam made a perfect heart shot and the mortally wounded buffalo ran about 30 yards and rolled head over heels. The buffalo appeared to be quite dead, but as experienced dangerous game hunters know, what appears to be is not always what actually is. No one had bothered to tell the buffalo that he was dead and, as it started to get up, Sam anchored him with another 400-gr. solid. One buffalo in the salt."

That buffalo would have died quicker if it had been a .458 Win. with 450-grain North Fork FP/CP/SP at 2350 fps MV.
And even more surely with a 400-grain GSC HV at 2500 fps.

Rip ...

Yup. Dead as a wedge .
This must not have been posted for very long .
The train of muzzle brake haters are surely going to raise the hue and cry if they look at the muzzle end of that Marlin.

What did you say? Sorry, I've been to a range where they put me next to the muzzle-brake brigade. Under that tin roof, even earmuffs hardly helped.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Yup. Dead as a wedge .
This must not have been posted for very long .
The train of muzzle brake haters are surely going to raise the hue and cry if they look at the muzzle end of that Marlin.

Muzzle brake aside, I'm looking for the "mature" bull.

Nice Dog!!

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
Nice Dog!!

Kinda chawin the he'll outa that poor moose.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
What did you say? Sorry, I've been to a range where they put me next to the muzzle-brake brigade. Under that tin roof, even earmuffs hardly helped.

I find it best at a public range to have the most obnoxious muzzle brake there. Keeps the black rifle troopers at bay. Usually they up and leave .