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boomstick,

If you are grateful to Hannay, downsize your Trump photo to 1024 pixels wide or smaller,
so you do not have to mess up Hannay's pdf.
Something like this will do, copy it and paste it, please:



Hannay,

Bob hopefully will chime in. He recommends the Remington version as tougher for hunting.
I think the Speer 400-grainer is good to about 1800 fps on deer.
That is like a fair to middlin' strong-action .45-70 load.
1400 to 1800 fps sounds like a good deer load with that bullet.
Fast powders and fillers or AA-5744 in the .458 WM. tu2

It is not going to explode in your barrel like a Sierra Pro Hunter 300-grainer does at 2800 fps from the .458 WM. Been there done that !

I have pushed the 400-gr Speer to over 2500 fps by using H4895 and AA-2230, in the .458/.416 Ruger where I did not want to waste too many of the GSC HV 400-grainer.
No exploding bullet and so-so-accuracy.
I found them most accurate at 1800 fps.

The Speer .458"/ 350-grainer is supposed to be so tough it will not start to expand on a deer at less than 1900 fps impact velocity !

The Elmer Keith timber-hunting load with 400-grainer in the .45-70 was about 1800 fps from his lever action, 53-grains of IMR-3031.
That load with filler would be a lot slower from a .458 WM.

My .461"/ 401-gr powder-coat-painted, gas-checked, hardcast bullets should behave similarly, in the internal ballistic way,
as the 400-gr Speer:

25"-barreled .458 WM
43.0 grains (about 59% LR/fill with my bullet) >>> 1823 fps MV
That was with 1.6" tall stack of 1/2" diameter "caulk backer" foam wad filler compressed over the powder.
Winchester brass and WLR primer, COL 3.300" with my semi-pointed, tiny-FN, .458 SOCOM cast bullet.
I only went to 45.0 grains AA-5644 (61% LR/fill) >>> 1900 fps MV
I get better results with filler in the .458 WM, even using AA-5744 for low velocity.
Try it without filler first, as powder maker recommends, see if it is accurate enough to make you happy.

I see that Speer recommends 30.0 gr of IMR SR 4759 to give 1445 fps MV with their 400-grainer at 3.125" COL.
Use a filler.
Caulk backer foam of 1/2" diameter is your friend if you want low velocity, accurate loads in the .458 WM.
Buy a roll of it at the hardware store and slice it with a filet knife. tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Long Live 458 TRUMP patriot
Gives new meaning to Trump steaks Big Grin


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 26745 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Rip,
Thanks for the advice. I will try a reduced load of H4895 or AA5744 to see if I can get around 1800 ft/s. And I''ll get some 1/2" foam backer rod.
 
Posts: 516 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: 27 November 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by hydehunter:
from what others have said the recoil in a #1 is worse than in a bolt gun but I have never shot the Ruger, so don't take my word for it. but I have a CZ 550 and the 458 Trump works very well no feeding issues but I only load the Barnes 458 TSX bullet and at 2310fps the recoil is very stout especially off the bench when doing the load work up. but if you like the #1 and I would have probably gotten one if the price was right but found my CZ at a very good price and it was new in the box even though it was made 12 years ago. just load the up at 78 grains of AA2230 at 3.680 and let her run, scares the hell out of my friends they will not shoot her, I guess they are chicken, but have fun Jim. P.S. just an fyi: just got an email from Wayne at American Hunting Rifles letting me know they no longer take on any repair work or upgrades they are only building custom rifles now


Having owned a CZ550 in .458 for four years, and probably shot a thousand rounds of my handloads through it, taken it hunting for both moose and bear, and shot a bear with it, I'd say the recoil was more than manageable. And some of those loads were near the top using H335 and H4895 behind the 500 Hornady at 2200+ fps. Actually, H4895 gave almost 2300 fps at 2283 fps avg. Then the 350 TSX at 2750 over 78 gras H4198 was at 55 ft-lbs recoil when test fired at the range without extras in the magazine. When I shot the bear with that load there were four others in the magazine, but I never noticed the recoil in shooting the bear. I found the CZ very manageable in recoil with only one in the chamber.

My Ruger No.1 in .458 has a 24" Mag-na-ported barrel, and I've actually exceeded the velocities of the CZ, firing 500s (Hornadys and Speers) at 2300+ fps. Also the 450 Swift at over 2400 and the 350 TSX at 2782 fps. The empty weight of the Ruger No.1 with scope is similar to the CZ. It has a heavier barrel. The butt stock on the Ruger has actually less drop at the heel and comb than my CZ had, and I notice little difference in felt recoil.

Now, my hunting load for BG is a 405gr Remington at nearly 2100 fps (2091 corrected avg. to muzzle on last tests). It's a very accurate load, shooting less than MOA when I'm on the job. Recoil is a mere 31 ft-lbs. On Saturday of this week I'll be publishing a profile of that load. It looks good to about 400 yards for large game like moose. I was in my hunting area last week with that rifle and load. The 405gr Remington bullet is tougher than the 400gr Speer and gives much better penetration. It has a duel diameter, two spots for crimping and less lead exposed than the Speer.

In all, I find the Ruger a better carrying rifle than the CZ: It's about 6-inches shorter and balances very well, and ballistics can be whatever you make them to be. The 405gr load is a smidgen over 3900 ft-lbs and the rifle is capable of 6000 ft-lbs if you need or want it.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

 
Posts: 766 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008Reply With Quote
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Welcome back Bob.
Have you killed anything before the snow got too deep ?

Hannay,

My pleasure. I will be using the data too, on my stash of Speer 400-grainers and some store-bought Berry's .459"/409-gr FN, plain-base, grease-groove, blue-lubed hardcast bullets.

1800 fps with the Speer is what I am aiming for, 1400 fps with the relatively under-sized Berry's cast bullet.
The latter will be a fun plinker, OK accuracy in a .458"-grooved .458 WM barrel at 1400 fps.
Better in a .45-70 with tighter groove, like .456" to .457".
There I would trust it up to 1800 fps MV too.

The QuickLOAD with AA-5744 and the Speer 400-grainer is not too far off from what I got previously with my homemade 400-ish-grainer cast bullets,
the OtherBerry's Bullets.

Here it is for a 24" barreled .458 WM, with Speer 45 FNSP 400-grainer, COL = 3.125" like in the Speer Handloading Manual Number 15:



Note the QL Propellant table for this rifle load, limited to 40,000 PSI and no more than 100 % LR/fill:



Top velocity within those limits is with IMR 3031.
Just so happened that it topped out at 67.1 grains of IMR-3031 (97 % LR/fill) >>> 2203 fps, 40,000 PSI.
Coincidentally, starting load in SPEER # 15 is 67.0 grains of IMR-3031 >>> 2055 fps.



This is a common finding with QuickLOAD and the .458 WM.
QL over-estimates velocity by ~150 fps
and over-estimates pressure by ~8000 PSI,
very frequently.
This is, IMHO, due to QuickLOAD making no allowances for throat effects.
horse

Here is the rest of the reduced-load powder table.
H4895 is listed (in first part of table shown above) as 70.4 grains (98% fill) >>> 2147 fps, 40,000 PSI.
Reality is probably more like 70.4 grains H4895 >>> 2000 fps, 32,000 psi.
That is promising for a reduction to 1800 fps by use of filler, and I do love H4895.
OK, I will run the charge table specific for H4895. tu2
Take your pick of powders and use a filler if LR/filling is less than 90 % LR/fill.







That is a 2009 edition of QuickLOAD.
I last paid for an update of the powders two or three years after that,
but I am now lacking the newer whiz-bang powders on QuickLOAD.
The old ones are still good,
and have served to teach me to fly by the seat of my pants with the new whiz-bangs.
I will buy it again whenever I have to buy a new 'puter.
Not until !
patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Rip,
The QuickLoad output is very interesting. It would've never occurred to me to use Blue Dot or Hodgdon H110.

(Though I will probably still start with H4895!)

I looked around for the Remington bullets that Bob uses - also a bit scarce.

I may have to eventually resort to this, though I would suppose I'd need to find gas checks then:



I'll hope that these component shortages ease before I'm forced to try casting my own bullets.
 
Posts: 516 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: 27 November 2010Reply With Quote
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Hannay,

Buy a donkey for tickling me into running the reduced H4895 for 400-grainer.
I hadn't seen the forest for the trees.
Hodgdon recommends it for reduced loads.
It is the slowest burning powder that ignites well in reduced loads around 60 %: SAFE, no kaboom/secondary detonation when used at around 60 % of a maximum load for that bullet.
No filler needed for a 60 % load,
but certainly a filler won't hurt from 56 % to 90 % LR/filling in the loads I show below,
56 % to 100 % shown:




Expect your velocity to be about 150 fps slower than for a specific charge shown by QuickLOAD.

That mould, Lyman 457406, is a nice one,
supposed to be 482 grains in Lyman #2 Alloy.
Might want to load it up to 2150 fps to simulate original .450 NE ballistics.
Or keep it down to 1300 fps to simulate the dawning of the BPCR, transition from Whitworth muzzleloader to 577/450 MH and 45-70 Govt.
salute
Once you start casting bullets you will never have enough playtime for all the fun.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Funny: Start with 65 grains of H4895 with just about any bullet in the .458 WM or .458 TRUMP and work down or work up.
Get by with one powder.
That would certainly include Hannay's 482-grain cast bullet.
Big Grin
Shoot fire and save matches. dancing
I just bought 2 pounds each of Alliant Power Pro VARMINT and 1200-R at the local emporium.
Oh the irony ! animal

H4895: Excellent ThermoBallisticIndependence.
Good for reduced loads.
Great for compressed loads, and it needs to be since it is a bulky "stick" powder compared to the "ball" powders.

I have used H4895 to +110% LR/compression with the 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN,
and now I am going to start on it at 90 % LR and work down or up !

QuickLOAD says that their interpretation of 101 % Loading Ratio/filling may be compressed or not-compressed.
A 101% LR (per QL calculation) loaded with a drop tube may actually have air space in the case and is "not compressed" when bullet is seated.
It is just better packed before seating.
101 % LR (per QL calculation) loosely poured into the case will be "compressed" when the bullet is seated.
H4895 may be drop-tubed and then compressed by seating bullet, for top loads.

No drop tube will be needed for loading the 400-gr Speer 45 FNSP to 3.125" COL with a 90 % LR charge of H4895 in the .458 WM.
65 grains of that powder may be loosely dropped into the case.
No risk of a double charge with that reduced load and no filler needed.
Even a Dumbestcrat could be taught to do that,
with supervision at all times, of course.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I could not resist another recycling for a TRUMP BUMP.
It is very applicable to the latest subject invoked by Hannay:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Fine-tuning work-down completed:



OK to work down or work up if starting with 90 % LR with your bullet. Chronograph it and decide whether you want to work down or work up.

I started at the top, now need to work down to lesser charges with the Speer 400-grainer.
65 grains (90 % LR loose charge) to start and work down.
patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Dang, now that H4895 will do it all, will have to try those Alliant Power Pro powders if this thread is going to make it to 461 pages,
for THE MISSION ...

... I figured it out !!!
All the Joe Biden voters that were looting and rioting all year
slacked off on the looting and rioting when they got "hired" as poll watchers and vote counters with orders from the US Dumbestcratic Party.

The Dumbestcrats need to go to hell.
God help the rest of us if they are not sent packing.
Build the wall and deport them all.
They do not deserve the USA ...

See flattened spherical VARMINT granules here.

Alliant Power Pro Varmint
"This is a fine 'flattened' spherical powder. This powder fits very densely into a case. This could be the wonder powder for 223/5.56. This could be it. We have tested no other powder than has done velocities with the brass as good as it looks, than Varmint. I believe the explanation for why the powder is superior to other ball powders in Standard Deviation, etc., is because the others are a pure 'ball', totally round shape to them. These are FLATTENED spherical. Flattened spherical is more consistent burn characteristic apparently. Which makes sense.

"How can this powder do velocities 2900+ FPS in 75 grain, without blowing primers, or massive case head stamp issues, or huge brass burs, etc.? This is a wonder powder ... let's look at some brass from the:
24.8 grains 2.255 OAL on left (2900 FPS)
25.0 grains 2.255 OAL on right (2930 FPS)
I just do not understand it. Those primers are not even that flat. They have small ejector side indication, but its mild.

"... Do not load over manufactured rec, and if you do, it is your responsibility solely, of course."

https://www.alliantpowder.com/...wer_pro_varmint.aspx



POWER PRO™ VARMINT
Rifle Powders

Smokeless spherical light rifle powder
When you're on the open plains over-looking a prairie dog town there’s no room for error. This unique powder technology delivers what we covet most: on-target performance on varmints, time after time. Ideal for standard caliber varmint loads.

Manufactured in the USA
Improved velocity and density for more efficient metering and loading
Enables reloaders to duplicate certain factory loaded ammunition
Excellent performance in the standard varmint cartridges
Density designed for proper cartridge fit
Principal Purpose: Standard Varmint
Secondary Uses: Medium Rifle Light Loads

Remarks:
150531 - Varmint; 1 lb. bottle
150532 - Varmint; 8 lb. canister

http://www.alliantpowder.com/p...ower_pro_1200-r.aspx



POWER PRO® 1200-R
Rifle Powders

Smokeless double based spherical rifle powder
Alliant Powder's Power Pro® 1200-R is made for high-volume shooters who burn through .223 ammunition at the range. The propellant is specifically formulated for progressive loading. It meters extremely well, and its double base provides consistent ignition and performance across a range of temperature and humidity extremes.

Designed for .223 progressive loading
Meters well
Double base formulation
Lot to lot consistency
Made in the U.S.A.
Principal Purpose: .223 ammunition
Secondary Uses: Light Varmint Cartridges

Remarks:
Great for high-volume handloaders progressive loading in .223

Canister Sizes: 1 lb. bottle; 8 lb. canister


Greatest varmint/light rifles ever, .458 WM and .458 TRUMP.
To save on expensive bullets, maximum .458 Lott loads have been occasionally used as starting loads in the .458 TRUMP.

Speaking of whom: The Supreme Court is going to invalidate the fraudulent election of 2020 that is still going on, declaring it FUBAR.

Congress will then decide the President and Vice President.
House (now Republican majority) decides President.
Senate decides Vice President.
Looks like it is going to be Trump and Pence for a second term.
Hopefully not Trump and Harris barf which it could be if Georgia goes FUBAR again.

We are living the old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times."
Biden and Harris are just Wong for the country.
Remember that two Wongs do not make a Whitehouse.

patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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More GOOD stuff RIP, the possibilities are indeed endless, i'll conduct a max penetration test between the 450gr TSX and 500gr Partitions, if the Partitions prevail, I may need to order a hand cannelure tool from Corbin for the Noslers so I can load them at 3.575 inch.

That said, and thought about, may need to just run with the 450 TSX, don't think they're going to make any more of the 500gr Partitions, in the case of soft [expanding] point bullet application, I don't believe any animal will know the difference.

With much good info here said, cussed and discussed, all four African PH's that I've been on hunts with to date ALL like and use 458 cal solids in their rifles, I've yet to see any load or unload ANY soft point of any sort, GS Custom, Barnes and Northfork 450 and 500gr solids, big 500 and 550gr Woodleigh solids, reckon them boys just want to break bones and punch big holes, I'm quite sure they know a lot that I'm just wasting time trying to figure ; ] patriot
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
More GOOD stuff RIP, the possibilities are indeed endless, i'll conduct a max penetration test between the 450gr TSX and 500gr Partitions, if the Partitions prevail, I may need to order a hand cannelure tool from Corbin for the Noslers so I can load them at 3.575 inch.

Jerry, the CH4D Canntool was seriously better than the Corbin hand-canneluring tool last time I looked. Stouter, better-built value for your money on that from CH4D.

That said, and thought about, may need to just run with the 450 TSX, don't think they're going to make any more of the 500gr Partitions, in the case of soft [expanding] point bullet application, I don't believe any animal will know the difference.

AMEN

With much good info here said, cussed and discussed, all four African PH's that I've been on hunts with to date ALL like and use 458 cal solids in their rifles, I've yet to see any load or unload ANY soft point of any sort, GS Custom, Barnes and Northfork 450 and 500gr solids, big 500 and 550gr Woodleigh solids, reckon them boys just want to break bones and punch big holes, I'm quite sure they know a lot that I'm just wasting time trying to figure ; ] patriot


Well, the PH uses solids to back up his client.
Always a client use for a soft.

I started the trip figuring best cruising was with .458/400-grainer at 2400 fps from the SAAMI .458 WM.
Now, with the .458 TRUMP on a road trip, keeping below speed limits, I like
500-gr solid at 2300 fps
450-gr TSX at 2400 fps
400-gr T6 at 2600 fps
350-gr TSX at 2800 fps or slower in the speed traps.
You won't get any traffic citations doing that, and you can do it all at 3.580" COL or less.
patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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RIP,

It definitely looks like Power Pro Varmint could be a wonder powder for a wide range of bullet weights in the .458 Win and .458 TRUMP. I've long thought that CFE223 might give the highest velocities with heavy bullets in the .458 3.6+" TRUMP, and since you show above in the Federal reloading chart that 2000MR gives good velocities in the Lott with a 500 grain, and CFE223 is just a hair faster than 2000MR, I'll reiterate that we should give CFE223 a try as well.
 
Posts: 118 | Location: SC | Registered: 10 March 2017Reply With Quote
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bcelliott,

Are we still waiting for you to chronograph some of that ?
I cannot find any data for CFE223 in the .458 WM.
I was goaded into Varmint and 1200-R by the data supplied by Federal
in the TBSH bullet boxes.
AR-Comp looks very interesting too, for TBI.
I will look for data comparing CFE223 to the Alliant powders in .223 and .308, FWIW.

Glad I am not too far north when there is a lot of chronographing
yet to be done.
I like to keep the testing in the 40 to 100 degrees F ambience.
Don't trust my chronos outside of that range.
Winter is coming !
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Mission support.

Winter is coming ?
We had 40 below on Nov 4 or 5.


Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle."
 
Posts: 1934 | Location: Eastern Central Alaska | Registered: 15 July 2014Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
More GOOD stuff RIP, the possibilities are indeed endless, i'll conduct a max penetration test between the 450gr TSX and 500gr Partitions, if the Partitions prevail, I may need to order a hand cannelure tool from Corbin for the Noslers so I can load them at 3.575 inch.

Jerry, the CH4D Canntool was seriously better than the Corbin hand-canneluring tool last time I looked. Stouter, better-built value for your money on that from CH4D.

That said, and thought about, may need to just run with the 450 TSX, don't think they're going to make any more of the 500gr Partitions, in the case of soft [expanding] point bullet application, I don't believe any animal will know the difference.

AMEN

With much good info here said, cussed and discussed, all four African PH's that I've been on hunts with to date ALL like and use 458 cal solids in their rifles, I've yet to see any load or unload ANY soft point of any sort, GS Custom, Barnes and Northfork 450 and 500gr solids, big 500 and 550gr Woodleigh solids, reckon them boys just want to break bones and punch big holes, I'm quite sure they know a lot that I'm just wasting time trying to figure ; ] patriot


Well, the PH uses solids to back up his client.
Always a client use for a soft.

I started the trip figuring best cruising was with .458/400-grainer at 2400 fps from the SAAMI .458 WM.
Now, with the .458 TRUMP on a road trip, keeping below speed limits, I like
500-gr solid at 2300 fps
450-gr TSX at 2400 fps
400-gr T6 at 2600 fps
350-gr TSX at 2800 fps or slower in the speed traps.
You won't get any traffic citations doing that, and you can do it all at 3.580" COL or less.
patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.


Client backup indeed, but, and lending to what I've seen, as well as thousands of the old Buffalo hunters and modern day '74 Sharps rifle hunters, a big bullet through the vitals simply kills, a solid as with a Sharps bullet doesn't need to expand etc, etc, they're ready to go to work when they arrive, African buffalo at 8 yards with a big solid, or American buffalo at 800 yards with a big Sharps, it's a done deal.

Don't think I'd be too hamstrung running solids from 458 on up for all heavy animals, that said, I did see that the big 750gr TSX hurt the Cape buffalo in a big way, went in at last rib, buried in offside shoulder, put him down, he was death bellowing as I quickly moved left to give him a solid through both shoulders.

Thanks for the tip on the CH4D tool, I found one online, will grab if need arises, looking for a good deal on a pile of 450 or 500gr TSX's, may save the Partitions for my 3.340 inch 458's.

Those are some fine speed limits that will give max engine life, and "no" life to the intendeds ; ]

I'll hit the 77gr AA2460 test load 500gr TBSH at 3.575" with my Lee FCD, on the truck for todays delivery. Cool
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Jerry, Natchez Shooters supply has the Barnes 450 gr TSX on sale now for 21.99 a box of 20 that is the lowest I have found. good luck
 
Posts: 68 | Location: Stickney,So Dakota | Registered: 12 January 2009Reply With Quote
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hydehunter, Thanks, just went and looked, already gone.
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With Quote
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The first ever black bear that I shot was in 1989, and the bullet was a 400gr Speer from an 1895 Marlin Classic. MV was 1865 fps avg. Range was 100 yards. The good size bear went over backwards, landing on all fours, took off on a literal dead run for 10 yards piling up in an alder patch with all four paws pointed toward the heavens! I gave him another between neck and shoulder for insurance that wasn't needed. That one was retrieved in the oposite armpit in skinning. Part of the 1" "mushroom" was sheared off but the bullet retained 90.5% of unfired weight. I've posted the pic of that a few times in my blogs.

Neither of the two bullets gave complete penetration on a bear that was at least 18" through the chest from broadside.

I've no doubt it would do well on whitetails, but I would never use it on elk or moose.

The 350gr Speer is a much better bullet. I've also used it on bear and the penetration was complete on a going away shot at 75 yards that hit the liver and made exit through the spine and back of the head doing terrific damage. MV from my Ruger 77 in .458 was 2345 fps from a modest dose of AA2015.

But the downside of that bullet in the Ruger 77 and my current Ruger No.1 has been to get the accuracy I wanted. And it's a problem for the 1895 Marlin in .45-70 due to the longish ogive and cannelure in the wrong place. It shot very well, however, in my Ruger #1, .45-70 LT.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob


"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

 
Posts: 766 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:
The first ever black bear that I shot was in 1989, and the bullet was a 400gr Speer from an 1895 Marlin Classic. MV was 1865 fps avg. Range was 100 yards. The good size bear went over backwards, landing on all fours, took off on a literal dead run for 10 yards piling up in an alder patch with all four paws pointed toward the heavens! I gave him another between neck and shoulder for insurance that wasn't needed. That one was retrieved in the oposite armpit in skinning. Part of the 1" "mushroom" was sheared off but the bullet retained 90.5% of unfired weight. I've posted the pic of that a few times in my blogs.

Neither of the two bullets gave complete penetration on a bear that was at least 18" through the chest from broadside.

I've no doubt it would do well on whitetails, but I would never use it on elk or moose.



Bob - thanks for posting that. I will see if I can get the 400 gr Speers going around 1800-1900 FPS.
Jeff
 
Posts: 516 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: 27 November 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Winter is coming ?
We had 40 below on Nov 4 or 5.

Sounds like Eskimo Summer in Fairbanks.
And balmy Anchorage was minus 20 ?
One day in December 1993 Anchorage and Western KY both had minus 28.
Where is global warming when you need it ?

41*F Sunday at the range.
98.0 gr of Blackhorn 209 in the Paramount 45-cal with 290-grain ELR PowerSkirt and F-215 primer,
4 shots, 5-yard velocities,
kind of cloudy and dark sky, used the auxillary lighting of the Caldwell G2:
1. 2180 fps
2. 2180 fps
3. 2180 fps
4. 2180 fps
faint
BC = 0.333 corrects that to MV 2192.
She is now zeroed 1.32" high at 100 yards,
with a 4-12x40mmAO-mildot Leupold:





Old scope and old rings from the parts bin for this futuristic muzzleloader. New 20-MOA Picatinny base is a good idea for the .458 WM also.

Back to the future for the muzzleloading origins of the .458 WM/.458 TRUMP: Whitworth.
Everything old is new again.
Blackhorn 209 does not disappoint.
98.0 grains was supposed to give about 2200 fps. Close enough.
Recoil is minimal.
tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Glad Bob chimed in again with more details on the bear-killing 400-gr Speer.
I will be using H4895 with Speer 400-grainers at about 1800 fps in the .458 WM.
I'll keep an eye peeled for CFE223, use it to clean up copper fouling.
The loads I have seen for the .308 WCF with CFE223 are only a few fps faster than H4895, but much higher pressure with CFE223 than with H4895.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
I'll hit the 77gr AA2460 test load 500gr TBSH at 3.575" with my Lee FCD, on the truck for todays delivery. Cool

That will be mighty fine for THE MISSION.
I am suspicious of my 41* chronograph with a quadruplicate reading.
But Jerry and I will eventually get to compare notes on AA-2460 and the the TBSH in the .458 TRUMP.
patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
I'll hit the 77gr AA2460 test load 500gr TBSH at 3.575" with my Lee FCD, on the truck for todays delivery. Cool

That will be mighty fine for THE MISSION.
I am suspicious of my 41* chronograph with a quadruplicate reading.
But Jerry and I will eventually get to compare notes on AA-2460 and the the TBSH in the .458 TRUMP.
patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.


Will be fun RIP, fire lapping the bore is a piece of cake on cleanup wipe down, fire cast lead bullet with 220 grit lapping compound, drag bore snake with tail dipped in Hoppes #9, push dry patch through on bore mop, wash, rinse repeat till 25 rounds are fired, 50 strokes of JB, solvent wipe down with Hoppes, then good tight wet patching wipedown with Kroil, patch dry, then fire away!!!!!

As usual, UPS/USPS smart post transfer clusterfak didn't get my Lee FCD die to me Saturday, mind is wondering with a high of 65 today, I pulled the 561gr Gibbs/Seyfried paper patch mould out of the box last night, may cast a few of those today.
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Jerry,

You say you work from 220 grit to 800 grit ?
I have never done that fire-lapping thing.
Sounds like it would be best to have a back porch overlooking some land where you could make noise with a rifle, while imbibing a lemonade between swabbings.
Might be just the trick for a speedy and nonfouling rifle.
My usual "break-in" for a new rifle is to shoot 20 shots then clean the rifle. Done ! hilbily
Slugging a barrel before and after fire-lapping ... has anyone been able to detect any changes of bore diameter in the 1/10,000ths-inch units ?
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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In 1969, Thomas J. Siatos, publisher of GUNS & AMMO magazine,
was hunting with Robert E. Petersen, chairman of board, Petersen Publishing Company.
Siatos carried an open-sighted .404 Jeffery Mauser by George Gibbs of Bristol.
Petersen was using a custom-stocked .375 H&H M70 and a .416 Rigby built by George Hoenig of Boise, Idaho.
They did 30 days of East Africa with John Northcote and Nicky Blunt.
Siatos was in Tanzania in September 1969 when he dreamed up the .458/404 Jeffery.
The first one was on a Remington 30S commercialized 1917 Enfield, with an Atkinson & Marquart barrel of 1:18" twist.

It must have been about 1970 when Jack Lott got involved in developing a load for the newly named .460 G&A.
91.0 grains of IMR-4064 for 2400 fps with 500-grainer.

A second .460 G&A rifle was built on a Brevex Magnum Mauser action with A & M barrel and George Hoenig stock and finishing.

Writing in 1972 for the 1973 G & A Annual, Siatos implies that it was September 1971 in Kenya when the two rifles were first "Africanized" by him and Bob Petersen.
Two PHs then were Julian McKeand and Peter Saw,
respectively backing up clients with a .470 NE Rigby DR and a .458 Winchester, "worked over until it's as smooth as a piece of oiled glass."

The 500-gr .460 G&A hunting loads then were said to "move out at better than 2350 fps, and the game, fairly hit, went down."

Tom Siatos' final opinion is fancifully reflected in the modified Rolex ad above, in which he is pictured.
In 1972 he wrote:

"The shooting world needs another wildcat cartridge about as much as it needs another 'Federal Gun Control Act.' "

"Sure I could go to the fine and efficient .458 Winchester but that would mean hanging up that beautiful .404. The typical rationale and sophistry of the avid gun buff and handloader. If he can't find a valid excuse to pursue his hobby, he'll invent one!"

"So why a wildcat .458 load? No other reason than just the satisfaction and fun of developing it, putting it together and finally using it in the field.
After all, isn't this what it's all about?"
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Paraphrasing Tom Siatos:

So why a .458 TRUMP load?
No other reason than just the satisfaction and fun of developing it, putting it together and finally using it in the field.
After all, isn't this what it's all about?


The original article supporting this opinion, excerpted from the 1973 G&A ANNUAL for book review purposes (and MISSION METRICS) follows.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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1973 G&A ANNUAL: Good book.
patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Jerry,

You say you work from 220 grit to 800 grit ?
I have never done that fire-lapping thing.
Sounds like it would be best to have a back porch overlooking some land where you could make noise with a rifle, while imbibing a lemonade between swabbings.
Might be just the trick for a speedy and nonfouling rifle.
My usual "break-in" for a new rifle is to shoot 20 shots then clean the rifle. Done ! hilbily
Slugging a barrel before and after fire-lapping ... has anyone been able to detect any changes of bore diameter in the 1/10,000ths-inch units ?


RIP, yes, 5 rounds at 220 grit, 10 each of 400 and 800, followed with 50 strokes of JB, i'll firelap this JES rebore because it's a 458 Magnum, simply wont put a hundred rounds through it for fun, shooting, cleaning and smoothing the new cut barrel, right again, 30lbs boneless country ribs on the smoker, ice cold Samuel Smith Imperial Stout or some good 12 year single malt scotch is fine for back porch shooting, cleaning sighting in etc, etc, especially with no chickens or midgets around!
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Jerry,

When fire-lapping, what is the purpose of chickens and midgets ?
Relief of monotony ?
Do you make them dance just for fun ? Big Grin
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Jerry,

When fire-lapping, what is the purpose of chickens and midgets ?
Relief of monotony ?
Do you make them dance just for fun ? Big Grin


LOL! "chickens and midgets?" Women and Kids.....I figure you're a bit of a night owl with the later night posting at times, I rolled out at 0300 again today, i'll send you a photo later of breakfast today with no chickens or midgets, already snapped you a pic, it consists of dark Columbians, cured Cubans, and 500 grains of TBSH with a perfect Lee FCD pinch!
 
Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Up at 7 AM, I consider 4 hours to be perfect "combat sleep" and more than President Trump has been averaging for the past 4-year siege.

"Still Life with .458 TRUMP"

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Detail from "Still Life with .458 TRUMP":



"Landscape with 45 Trump"


Another version of "midget and chicken" here: Ding Dong and Ho Ho. And Chuck Berry has the perfect campaign ‘flagship’ song, “My Ding-A-Ling.”

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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"Landscape with 45 Trump and .458 TRUMP"



patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Cool Man, that's some good stuff RIP, and with a few similarities I might add, only fitting as one rises the other beds, wouldn't take much to keep "The Watchtower" covered 24/7/365! I also just the other day was enjoying considerable landscape with TRUMP on my mind, 1125 yards worth to be exact, it was during a very effective 'election fraud theft' therapy stress relieving session, hell, I even took pics.

With all that said, I could just re-name the big rifle .338 TRUMP 4.0 inch! I would heartily suppose .338 cal, 300 grains and 3000 fps would indeed make a correct 338 TRUMP, No? ; ]
 
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