Recently a thread has been discussing the 416 caliber in North America with many a useful comment.

I tend to look at things through both a North American lens and an African lens. The two calibers 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger take on a special status when viewed this way.

Let's look at how the 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger stack up, both in NA and Africa.

Both the 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger are legal in African countries these days for dangerous game. (There was a time when some countries wanted 40+ caliber, but that was two generations ago and counting.)

Shooting distances in Africa tend to be shorter than in NA for larger big game. I have very rarely shot an animal in Africa at over 300 yards. Those were antelope taken across wide, flat terrain with accurate, flat-shooting rifles like 270 and 338. So the 416 Ruger can pretty much stay abreast of the 375 Ruger for distance in Africa.

However, Africa has some big animals. Enter Mr. Nyati, not to mention Tembo. Both the 375 and 416 legally take these large animals. However, the 416 hits with more energy, momentum and diameter. It stands to reason that many have considered the 416 a better buffalo caliber than the 375. Now I will not pretend to verify that based on my limited experience. A person would probably need to shoot 100 buffalo with a 375 Ruger (or H&H) and another 100 buffalo with a 416 Ruger/Rem/factory-loaded-Rigby in order to make the statement with any sense of experiential authority. Some would like to do one better and bring in the 458WM or 50 calibers. Fair enough. But those larger diameters raise the recoil threshholds for hunters and they tend to be losing easy distance shooting at 300 yards. I don't consider a cartridge with a velocity around 2300fps to be a good choice for impala and smaller at 300 yards. Doable? Of course. But not a good choice. Both the 375 and 416 remain very viable for medium to smaller game at 300 yards.

So we may reasonably look at 416 as a fairly ideal all-around caliber for Africa. We will return to this after looking at 375 and North America.

Up until the 1950's the US hunter had calibers like the 257 Bob, 270, 30-30, 30-06 and 375 H&H to consider for big game. The supreme elk round, promoted by Elmer Keith of all people, was the 375 H&H. Likewise, up in Alaska and Canada the 375 provided an excellent brown bear and grizzly rifle. This simplicity of cartridge selection has greatly expanded from the mid-50's. Every little niche has been filled in multiple ways. Certainly the 338WM and 458WM have found followings in Alaska. So let's return to the question of elk.

Elk can be cleanly taken with most any centerfire and a good bullet and self-restrained hunter. However, larger caliber are definitely preferred for anchoring a large animal. Both the 375 and 416 are admirable in this regard, perhaps in a dark, thick forest. But elk also live high up in mountain expanses. Hunters want to be prepared for 400 yard shots, which might entail practicing out to 500 yards to get to know a load well. Naturally, the 300mags, 338, and 375 all excel the 416 when distances stretch beyond 300 yards. As soon as the big bears re-enter the picture, then the 375 excels the 300's and 338.

So comparing North America and Africa, we see that there are more encounters with large dangerous animals in Africa, but that distances in North America more routinely stretch over 300 yards. Just as the 416 Ruger might be considered optimal in Africa for both buffalo and plains game (bigger diameter+300 yard reach 2600fps),
the 375 Ruger takes its place in North America where good bullets at distance become more desirable (bigger diameter+400 yard reach 2800-2900fps). We might even form an analogy for the 338WM. The 338WM serves as a great all-around caliber in NA in the same way that the 375 fills that role in Africa. Likewise, the 375 provides a little more anchoring in North America in the same way that the 416 provides a little more anchoring in Africa.

To summarize?
The 416 Ruger can serve in Africa in the way the 375 Ruger can serve in NA. And the 375 would work for Africa in the same way that the 338 would work for NA.

Meanwhile, as soon as two-rifle magazines enter the picture, everthing changes for another story .

As long as you can get ammunition for either one. I've passed on a few rifles in 416 Ruger because I could never find factory ammunition, and I'm NOT going to reload for another caliber.

I love the 375 Ruger. I have killed everything from my big euro boar, cow elk, whitetail, and two turkeys shot through the neck.

No better than the 375 HH, but I do love the dimensions of the case. A lot of combustion in a sensible package that we used to need a larger case to achieve.

I have 3, 375 Ruger abs believe it had made the 338 WM unneeded.

I own both rifles in both rounds, Ruger Africans with no muzzle brakes and with barrel mounted front sling swivels. Great African ready rifles.

What I like the most about them besides the ballistics and long action round beltless cases, are the rifles themselves. So light, so trim, so small for their caliber. An absolute joy to carry. 7 3/4 lb. rifles without scopes, and the stocks are SLIM! I have small hands so the stocks fit me perfectly. Joy!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
As long as you can get ammunition for either one. I've passed on a few rifles in 416 Ruger because I could never find factory ammunition, and I'm NOT going to reload for another caliber.

Maybe next time you could pass one on to me.

I own the 375 H+H, when the 375 Ruger has 100 + years of positive use records, I will think about buying one. The other fact is the Ruger round is generally found in ugly Ruger rifles. Not classic styles rifles like the H+H.
A 416 anything, I have no use for. I like .458 diameter much better.

I've always asked Why? about new cartridges.

With these two, I've never heard a convincing enough answer to justify either one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
I own the 375 H+H, when the 375 Ruger has 100 + years of positive use records, I will think about buying one. The other fact is the Ruger round is generally found in ugly Ruger rifles. Not classic styles rifles like the H+H.
A 416 anything, I have no use for. I like .458 diameter much better.

The pre muzzle break Africans were as classic Winchester Standard PRE64 looking as it got.

The 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger are two of my favorite cartridges. The calibers are favorites. As to performance the same bullets moving at relatively the same velocities perform that same regardless of the brass it departed from. I have 375 H&H’s and 416 Remingtons also. Both are great rounds also. The 375 Ruger has a tad bit more case capacity over the 375 H&H and the 416 Remington a tad more than the Ruger cartridge. I normally use the Rugers.
The rifles that I have in 375 and 416 Ruger have grouped well and are easy to shoot. I normally use the 375 or 416 versions for my moose hunting. The 20” barrel 416 Ruger covers my likes very well.

The only real justification for either in NA, short of the big bears is fun and games...neither is needed...I have a 375 Ruger and I love the caliber and the rifle, a rare Ruger 77 manufactured only in 2008, light and handy and taking up space in my gun room..Ive shot cow elk in the depredation hunts wit h it and with my 250-3000, both one shot kills of course, range 100 yards or less...

Sooo if ones happy with using a 375 or 416 or even a 577 NE, have at it, the decision is yours, and rightfully so..The rest is hogwash!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The only real justification for either in NA, short of the big bears is fun and games...neither is needed...I have a 375 Ruger and I love the caliber and the rifle, a rare Ruger 77 manufactured only in 2008, light and handy and taking up space in my gun room..Ive shot cow elk in the depredation hunts wit h it and with my 250-3000, both one shot kills of course, range 100 yards or less...

Sooo if ones happy with using a 375 or 416 or even a 577 NE, have at it, the decision is yours, and rightfully so..The rest is hogwash!

Ray, since we're including Africa in this thread---
you know you'd rather grab a 416 or 404 if walking in a buffalo area.
Granted, .416" is not a big difference, and occasionally buffalo can act pretty smug against any caliber. But diameter does make some difference.

And the 375's make great warthog guns, as appropriate for hogwash.

The reason Ruger and Hornady developed the 375 and 416 Rugers was to enable them to sell less expensive rifles in dangerous game calibers. Thee is no real need for either as they only duplicate the ballistics of proven rounds at higher pressures.

quote:

Originally posted by drongo:
The reason Ruger and Hornady developed the 375 and 416 Rugers was to enable them to sell less expensive rifles in dangerous game calibers. Thee is no real need for either as they only duplicate the ballistics of proven rounds at higher pressures.

But the ability to achieve equal, or slightly better ! ballistics from a case that doesn't require a longer bolt throw and offers a minutely quicker to operate action

The differences in pressures are often mentioned. Unless my information is wrong, or I interpreted it incorrectly, the SAAMI maximum pressures:

375 H&H = 62,366 psi
375 Ruger = 62,000 psi

416 Remington = 65,000 psi
416 Ruger = 62,000 psi

Edit to Add:
I have rifles in all 4 cartridges. I like all 4. I use the Rugers predominately. I am not going to sweat 100 FPS plus or minus.

Ive been a H&H fan longer than most folks live, and true to the cause, but after testing and hunting with a new in the box 375 Ruger at 8.5 lbs scoped and ready, Im sold on the caliber and the case, as well as the gun, should I need a 416 Id be happy with the 416 Rem, and better yet the .416 Ruger..As to availability of ammo, thats a problem for any caliber these days...so schools out on that problem, well just have to wait and see, and it would be an important plus or minus...

As for as a caliber for Buffalo or even elephant, the 375 would suit me as well as a 416 or even a .577 N.E...As far as Im concerned on that count once you reach a 375 or even a 9.3x62 one caliber is as good as another..

From a custom standpoint, the Rugers make a lot of sense. Somewhat less fuss because of the shorter case. I think they would catch on more if renamed
375 Express and 416 Express..maybe "Rimless express"


The "Ruger" moniker....gulp!

Duane,

My observation, as a long time across the course high power rifle shooter, is that short, fat cartridge cases are more difficult to get to feed correctly than longer, sloped shoulder cartridges, of which the .300 H&H and .375 H&H are prime examples.

I only have experience with the .300 H&H in Africa, but its feeding in my pre-64 Winchester Model 70 was absolutely immaculate and I would hate to trade a fraction of an inch shorter bolt throw for less reliability.

Bill Warren

I have one of each (Alaskan Models) and have killed NA and African game with them. From wolves to Buffalo, NO ISSUES! Love the rifles, cartridges are available up here in MT. What's not to love.

For those looking for 375 Ruger ammo, I’ve had pretty good success with Miwall lately

This week I am getting ready for my 42nd season guiding brown bear hunters in Alaska. For decades the 375 H&H was THE choice for serious bear guides. The 338 was also popular as you could usually find one cheaper.
But once the 375 Ruger was introduced the pawn shops Quickly filled up with used 338's and Interarms MK X .375 H&H rifles.
For those who bad mouth Ruger rifles, Today some of those old Rugers are selling for more than pre-64 M 70's !

The 375 Ruger does not need a long action and fits in standard length receivers and has a greater case capacity than the dated old H&H round ! I admit the difference in velocity is minimal, but the fact is the Ruger holds the edge.

As for the 416 Ruger, again it is a shorter case than the 416 Remington and tremendously more so than the Rigby. But it easily matches the original ballistics that made the Rigby famous in Africa. Plus it comes in a shorter, lighter and infinitely cheaper action. Heck, it even looks like a smaller Rigby.

I Understand the allure of "classic" and am not immune to its charms. But both the 375 & 416 Ruger rounds are great hunting rounds.

Hear Hear.

Ruger rifles might not be the best looking.

Buy by far a stainless syt stocked is the toughest.

The Ruger .375 and .416 calibers are what a .375 and .416 should have been all along.

I’m another one who really doesn’t see the advantages of these two new rounds.

Sure they work, but the old ones do as well.

AFAIC fractions of an inch don’t make much difference in bolt manipulation or speed.

Rifle weight makes a difference to some extent, but unless one is really trying to have the absolute floor weight wise, there are ways to shave weight down to acceptable levels and usually the lightest rifle possible isn’t the easiest to shoot well.

Since the real purpose of the Ruger cartridges was to get rid of the belt, and the belts have never been a problem for me, they are somewhat a solution in search of a problem.

Now, they are certainly functional and work, but I fail to see what they offer other than Ruger offers some configurations that folks want that they don’t (but could) offer in older cartridges.

You want the short, stainless, lightweight (relatively) big bore, Rugers offerings in .375 and .416 Ruger are available, and less expensive than a custom modified rifle.

Get what you want. I’ve already got what I am happy with.

The only additions that I’m interested in are not centered on performance because I’ve already got that, but rather history and style.

I don’t see folks running to get Blasers in .375 Ruger for the gimcrack modern have to have the latest crowd.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I’m another one who really doesn’t see the advantages of these two new rounds.

Sure they work, but the old ones do as well.

AFAIC fractions of an inch don’t make much difference in bolt manipulation or speed.

Rifle weight makes a difference to some extent, but unless one is really trying to have the absolute floor weight wise, there are ways to shave weight down to acceptable levels and usually the lightest rifle possible isn’t the easiest to shoot well.

Since the real purpose of the Ruger cartridges was to get rid of the belt, and the belts have never been a problem for me, they are somewhat a solution in search of a problem.

Now, they are certainly functional and work, but I fail to see what they offer other than Ruger offers some configurations that folks want that they don’t (but could) offer in older cartridges.

You want the short, stainless, lightweight (relatively) big bore, Rugers offerings in .375 and .416 Ruger are available, and less expensive than a custom modified rifle.

Get what you want. I’ve already got what I am happy with.

The only additions that I’m interested in are not centered on performance because I’ve already got that, but rather history and style.

I don’t see folks running to get Blasers in .375 Ruger for the gimcrack modern have to have the latest crowd.

That's a great big ole +1 !!!

Stick bows, flintlock rifles, single shot Sharps rifles and long heavy Winchester rifles also got the job done, and still do !

But professionals usually tend to use the best available tools for the job.

Even WDM "Karamojo" Bell , who was obviously a talented shooter and hunter, claimed that the additional speed afforded by a shorter cartridge in a bolt action was advantageous.

Professionals tend to use what they are given.

Look at yourself, Mr. S.

You are often afield with whatever you are testing.

Most guides want a minimum to no maintenance weapon that is reliable.

Your own catch phrase re the .30-06 also is meaningful here.

I have done timed runs for myself, and the variance of the runs is significantly larger than the difference between a short action using a similar recoiling round and a long action.

Some of the .300 ultra shot to shot times were faster than the .300 WSM, some slower, so I don’t think it matters except to that rare bird that has the kinesthetic sense of a Bell... and even then it might be more of a matter of affirmation bias. A couple tenths of an inch are what we are talking about here.

If you want to use the .416 Ruger, great, but would you refuse to hunt with me as a client because I had a .416 Rigby instead of a .416 Ruger?

I would like a .375 Ruger. Only problem is Ruger rifles (stocks) just dont seem to fit me at all.

How well does a magnum faced commercial mauser (Interarms) work with this cartridge, easy re-barrel? Or a lot of tweaking.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Stick bows, flintlock rifles, single shot Sharps rifles and long heavy Winchester rifles also got the job done, and still do !

But professionals usually tend to use the best available tools for the job.

Even WDM "Karamojo" Bell , who was obviously a talented shooter and hunter, claimed that the additional speed afforded by a shorter cartridge in a bolt action was advantageous.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head there Phil.

I see the 375 and 416 Rugers as "tools". They don't inspire me. You guys as the professionals, need to rely on tools while many of us client hunters still like the overall experience to include rolling our own ammo, for a classic rifle, in a classic caliber, to go on a classic hunt, that we've saved and planned for years. You see client after client each season, but we do one or two brown bear hunts in a lifetime if we are lucky. I'm still hoping for No. 3 and it will probably be with you.



Some guys, like JDollar, are happy with using camp rifles and so there are definitely clients that see the rifle as a tool also. My son is like that as well. Those Ruger offerings would please them just fine.



Then you have the Blaser thingy guys. I'll not even attempt to explain them as they are beyond logic, or hope for that matter. I suspect those were the guys you would see at a party, standing in the corner by themselves, wondering why they don't feel comfortable speaking with girls.



But for me, a good old 375 H&H or 416 Rigby, being the 2 guns I took on my last buffalo hunt, are my preferred medicine for browns. In fact, on the 2 brown bear hunts I've done, I took the 416 Rigby on the first, and the 375 H&H on the second. I have made the sacrifice of synthetic stocks on both, and stainless on the 375 however, which of course, moves them a step toward "tool" status.



But in your environment, it's nice to not have to sweat the elements setting in to destroy the rifle at the end of each day's outings when rain / snow / mud cover the weapon. But yeah, I see no value in a marginally shorter bolt stroke (or whatever that Blaser thingofbob does), or a slightly lighter package overall. I like the slick feeding of the old H&H and the nostalgia of the fat Rigby, especially when we know it can be loaded above original pressures safely! 2750 fps with a 350 TTSX is the 416 Hammer of Thor ... and out of a classic caliber that hits you right in the feels!

Well stated Todd!
I have two 375 Rugers in camp and two 375H&H and all of them get used. And my daughter lovers her 416 Remington and I like the little Ruger I have in an older canoe paddle stock.

dean119: My .375R in FTW package came with buttpad spacers so the stock can be adjusted to fit the shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by dean119:
I would like a .375 Ruger. Only problem is Ruger rifles (stocks) just dont seem to fit me at all.

How well does a magnum faced commercial mauser (Interarms) work with this cartridge, easy re-barrel? Or a lot of tweaking.

You might be reacting to the Hogue stock on the Alaskan. I don't like it either and I haven't tried the African.

IN the meantime, you might want to try Boyd's for an easy stock replacement. They now have adjustable butts and and checkpieces of some models of stock.

Also,
Bell & Carlson recently added Ruger stocks with aluminum bedding block that fit these rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by dean119:
I would like a .375 Ruger. Only problem is Ruger rifles (stocks) just dont seem to fit me at all.

How well does a magnum faced commercial mauser (Interarms) work with this cartridge, easy re-barrel? Or a lot of tweaking.

You might be reacting to the Hogue stock on the Alaskan. I don't like it either and I haven't tried the African.

IN the meantime, you might want to try Boyd's for an easy stock replacement. They now have adjustable butts and and checkpieces of some models of stock.

The Hogue stocks are a rotomolded interior with a thick rubber exterior, which is simple to shape with a sharp rasp or file. You can easily remove 1/2 pound and make them slimmer and handier. But it doesn't improve their looks !

The one I was looking at was a used African with the wood stock, I liked the looks and feel of it, but it was short and hard to get down on the iron sites, and I want to use the iron sights, maybe with a with a little more length it would work better for me.

Shops been closed though, dont know if its still there.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The Hogue stocks are a rotomolded interior with a thick rubber exterior, which is simple to shape with a sharp rasp or file. You can easily remove 1/2 pound and make them slimmer and handier. But it doesn't improve their looks !

Yes, I had to remove a lot of the Hogue pistol grip to reshape it into a traditional diagonal lay in order to stop my fingers from being hit by the trigger guard. I only noticed the problem on a 500 AccRel, so maybe a 375 would be OK, I don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by dean119:
The one I was looking at was a used African with the wood stock, I liked the looks and feel of it, but it was short and hard to get down on the iron sites, and I want to use the iron sights, maybe with a with a little more length it would work better for me.

Shops been closed though, dont know if its still there.

I might be interested in the rifle if the price were right.

For iron sights, the CZ hog-back stocks are pretty nice, though the rifles are quite heavy. They are comfortable as the muzzle energies rise above 6k, something that only happens with hand-loaded Rigby rounds in the .416" diameter. Personally, I like scopes and the CZ keeps ones head erect so it it nice in that regard, too. Fewer magnum eyebrows when a friend shoots the rifle.

Frankly, I didn't build a 375 AccRel because i thought it was too crowded - then the ruger came out, and mine would have been a slightly "better" 375 .. then the 416 ruger came out, and obviated my 416 .. anyone who asks after my 416, i point them to the 416 ruger .. it's factory and easy to get.

Now, when comparing to the 375 hH -- it's not exactly hugely better, other than the .4" longer case can cost a good deal more than, say, a 375-06 ... I wouldn't suggest MOST people sell of their HH to get a ruger .. but those with none, get the ruger.

a stainless 375 or 416, standard action, in a plastic stock, as long as ALL the internals are stainless, reads like a dream hunting rifle TOOL ...

if you like rust blue and $$$$$$$$$ walnut, well, hey, perhaps the HH is for you, as spending $500 - $1,500 for an action is peanuts if your are spending 7,500 for stock and wood.

but you COULD build a ruger in the same format.

i have 0% nostalgia quotient, so i should be discounted in my opinion

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The Hogue stocks are a rotomolded interior with a thick rubber exterior, which is simple to shape with a sharp rasp or file. You can easily remove 1/2 pound and make them slimmer and handier. But it doesn't improve their looks !

coming from the owner and creator of ole ugly that is hilarious.

btw i love my left handed 375 ruger with stainless and short barrel very useful even in the yukon.

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The Hogue stocks are a rotomolded interior with a thick rubber exterior, which is simple to shape with a sharp rasp or file. You can easily remove 1/2 pound and make them slimmer and handier. But it doesn't improve their looks !

coming from the owner and creator of ole ugly that is hilarious.

btw i love my left handed 375 ruger with stainless and short barrel very useful even in the yukon.

The old Ruger canoe paddle stock and Dexter Arms drop box magazine I added to my stainless 416 Ruger gives it all the aesthetic charms of a chainsaw! But it should be just as handy and useful!

We need a picture Phil to fully appreciate your latest creation of Function over form.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
We need a picture Phil to fully appreciate your latest creation of Function over form.

I have photos but when photobucket dumped all of mine I didn't bother finding another server.