.

Sooooooo you could have a normal spire point bullet front that would engage the rifling with a thin shaft and fins extending in the charge for a supersonic flechette. Or just shoot a flechette out of a shotgun. you could have a spiral bore rider rear section as well. Who has a fancy lathe to make some????

I witnessed the deadly penetrating effects of "beehive" flechette artillery round in Vietnam

And it was no surprise as any kid who has ever shot a bow knows that hemispherical shaped target tipped arrows out penetrated blunts.

Tank cannon Sabot rounds have penetrators made of depleted uranium and are about one inch in diameter and 30 inches long. They will penetrate (classified) inches of homogeneous armor. Fin stabilized, as stated, and when fired from rifled guns, like the M68 105mm (M60 series), they have a nylon rotating band that slips in the rifling so the sabot/penetrator assembly does not rotate. Pressures and velocities are higher than we use in small arms because tank ammo uses steel, electric, screwed in primers. Close to 5000 fps and 100,000 psi. The guns themselves are fairly conventional vertical sliding breech and 4340 steel barrels.
One of my jobs was Tank Ammo Production Manager. I bought thousands of them. And have fired somewhat fewer than that, 105 and 120, M256 Cannon.
So, the answer to the question, is length, velocity, and mass. Not even sure a sharp point is important.

quote:

flechette

They were colloquially called “nails” for obvious reason. Shotgun, 2.75” rockets, artillery.
One extra curricular use was adhering the Ace of Spades to “recently deceased” VC foreheads.

On trees and phone books the best penetrating bullet I have seen in action was the 303 Mark VII ammo we had. However, not always as could go sideways quite often. For comparison was Hornady FMJs in 220 grain 30, 300 grain 375 nd 500 grain in 45 and those in both 458 and 460 and also Winchester (about 1971 vintage) 500 grain FMJ factory.

The 303 Mark VII ammo could also do the sideways or about turn in large red kangaroo chest shots. You shoot them in the spotlight and they would hop away as if not hit. Then you would shoot one and down it would go with a real big exit. I have seen them shot when side on and low in the chest and the bullet exit and blow the front leg/shoulder out.

The FMJ 174 grain bullet was much thicker in the jacket than any 7.62 or 30/06 military ammo bullets I have seen, The Australian 7.62 144 grain bullet you cut in half with ease with a pair of side cutters but not even go close on the 174 grain Mark VII.

One thing I found with soft point bullets fired into tins of water and trees was two very different results. Using very soft local bullets made for fast expansion, much quicker expanding than American bullets in 277 and 308, in tins of water the harder American bullets had much greater penetration. However, in trees (green and alive) no real difference as the tree seemed to hold the bullets together.

Alf,

I mentioned the trees and water not so much in terms of just penetration but the fact that the tree held a soft bullet together.

As you know we see heaps of times soft points recovered from water that are "premium" bullets and ordinary bullets which are in pieces. All as I am saying is the green tree holds the soft bullet together. Whether that translates to heavy muscle I have no idea. I am simply passing on an observation.

As to the Mark VII instability in living flesh I did comment on that BUT I can tell you, at least on large red roos you would not want to bet on it, that I can guarantee. You would not want to line up 4 big red roos and stand behind the 4th roo when a 303 Mark VII was fired. On the other hand you would not want to stand on either side of the roos.

With the aluminium inside the tip of the bullet I was always under the impression that was to allow the 174 grain bullet to have a longer ogive and so higher BC and the lack of stability was just a side effect. I do know on both pigs and red roos that with chest shots in most cases a Mark VII just goes straight through.

Then why did the Mark VII go straight through roos and pigs.

Lots of people cut the points off. One gunsmith made a type of die that was hand held against a milling cutting with the cartridge in the die. Same was done for 7.62 and they were much better as the jacket was very thin.

If I had a dollar for every time I have seen a pig or red kangaroo take off after a chest hit with 303 Mark VII like they were not hit I would have a fortune

However, local factory ammo with 140 grain soft point, well, that really put the things down as they did out of the 7.7 X 54. The 7.7 X 54 came about because way back when military calibres were illegal in a couple of states in Australia unless you belonged to one of the military based rifle ranges. The 7.7 X 54 was just a slightly shortened 303 so 303 ammo would not chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

How do you know it went straight through without overturning ?

The other issue is where was your roo shot ?
if its a lung shot ( lungs have very little density and offer almost no resistance to penetration ) the bullet may not have overturned in the target.

Because they just keep going. Plus some roos of day time we would catch them in the 4WD and run over them. Of course under the conditions hardy a detailed examination but common to see no entry or exit.

Nearly every shot a lung shot on both roos and pigs. With 140 grain local factory ammo lung shots on roos and pigs straight down or not go far. Hit with Mark VII and mostly off they go. Hence points were cut off. BUT, sometimes huge exits with standard Mark VII ammo, that is, points not cut off.

The bottom line is this Alf. If you went spotlight shooting with that Mark VII ammo, unless hip shot those roos just take off. Based on my experience (and heaps of others the same) the odds are a Mark VII 303 will just go straight through a roos chest.

Also, I have seen heaps of roos shot in day time and you see the bullet kick up the dust way out. To me (and others) those bullets were still going point forward.

Actually I would have thought the ideal military bullet would be one that would go through a man as well as the bloke (or two) behind him.

Well I'll be damned!!

I used to shoot bullets through things and catch and inspect them just for fun.

I laid two 6" x 12" x 40" Doug Fir timbers end to end and shot a 500 gr. Hornady RN FMJ through it at 2410 fps. It made it half way (one of them) and then turned/yawed. Virtually no deformation. I then shot a 500 gr. Speer AGS. It went straight through and was lost. The second one I shot went through, struck a steel plate that I propped against it with a large rock and then came almost completely apart, meaning it exited quite hard. It put a nice dent in the plate.

Shooting 3/4" mild steel plate, the best penetration (completely through) occured with the Speer AGS, followed by a 500 gr. Swift soft point. The Hornady 500 gr. FMJ and Barnes 500 gr. Bronze monolithic solid (I still have a few) did the poorest job on the plates.

Not scientific by any means but it was interesting and fun.

Edit: I've shot and caught .30 Black Tip bullets also.

I used a box of wet magazines and phone books, a cross tie up against my new tin barn..Shot a 458 Lott woodleigh solid thru the books, the cross tie, the barn, a burn barrel behind the barn, and it was headed to Boise I suppose, Never again!! I think it'll work on several elephants if I an get them to line up. My wife said what in the world, where did that hole in the barn come from, I said Damned if I know? she said it looks like a bullet hole, I said it does kinda doesn't it..

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Mike:
I did not know that we hunted phone books trees or barrels or water ?

Wood, phone books , jugs of water even gelatine or ballistic soap cannot replicate living tissue ! The mechanical properties of each differ significantly from living tissue !

The Mk VII 303 bullet is highly unstable in living tissue ! The nose of the bullet was filled with a wood fibre / paper or aluminium which pushed the centre of mass of the bullet far back to 64% from tip of nose, transverse moment of inertia was 13.4 and the ratio of side on surface ( @ 90 deg yaw) to point forward surface was 3.24

The penetration depth of a Mk 7 303 bullet on gelatine is no more than 18 inches and the narrow channel is very short! This makes it very effective !

While these substances are not living tissue and may not resemble it in any true manner, at least results from them can be evaluated with some consistency - not so with game animals hit in a variety of ways and places.

Alf,
All that can do is compare one bullet to another, just checking penetration by comparison in my case, doesn't have a damn thing to do with guts and liver..