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Very good Michael - I didnt remember that.. Perfect.
I have said it before and I say it again: - Best thread EVER!!!! tu2
 
Posts: 873 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I see it has been a rather quite day here on terminals. That will begin to change tomorrow! Sam and I just now come off the range, it's nearly 6 pm here. We have been at it since 8 this morning! We have a full day in today, terminals of 416s, barrel strains, pressures of 470 Nitros, we have a complete report on different fillers and this is going to OPEN EYES for you double guys! Accuracy reports on BBW #13s at 50 yds, double rifle and bolt guns, and I probably forgot other things I will have to refer to my notes! I am quite sure I had a day or two worth of processing data as well. It's been a great day and has had it's tribulations as well! Broken strain gages and other things we had to fight along the way.

I will start work in the morning processing the data and will post as I can get it sorted through!

I promise some really good stuff coming from todays work!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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We's batin our breath ,Marse Michael

tu2
 
Posts: 6725 | Location: central Texas | Registered: 05 August 2010Reply With Quote
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You know it's way past dark here, and I am going to roost in a few minutes. Long Day. But to keep you guys in the complete dark would be ugly, so I am going to give you a few hints.

In both 416 B&M 1:14 and 1:12 and 416 Remington 1:14 we tested the best 400 gr bullet we have ever worked with in 416 caliber.

Along with that, a totally wicked NonCon.

We tested a 412 gr copper .474 caliber bullet--some of Bobs prototypes, have info on that for Bob.

On the filler test in 470 Nitro--if you are using Quaker Instant Grits as a filler, STOP NOW--DO NOT FIRE ANOTHER ROUND OF THAT IN YOUR RIFLE--If They are loaded, disassemble them now.

Two tales of accuracy with a 570 CEB BBW #13 Solid--one in the 510 Wells and a great experience with 500 Nitro and some things one has to do with the bullets sometimes--If they Don't Shoot Proper!!!!!

Barrel Strains on par with prior data--No real BIG NEWs on that front. And--We lost the strain gage on the 470 and since we are at the end of that test now Sam will remove it. However, we are not done with this story just yet--We are working on a 458 version right now, still experimenting with that however! I will be working with it next week while many of you are at SCI.

Big things coming!

In the morning Boys!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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popcorn


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Good Morning Boys! I'm Back!

Man I don't know where to start, have been working on this since early, I think I have everything ready, so let me see..............OK, I will start with BNisbets 412 gr 470 copper bullet. This is a prototype bullet BNisbet sent for us to test terminals and barrel strain. We know how it goes with prototypes all to well---it is what it is, a prototype that we try and find the faults with so that on run number 2 we can get it right! That is the case here as well. So BNisbet has some refining to do, just as we have done many times.







Well right off we see that is not bad performance on terminals for total penetration. Losing stability at 47-49 inches, twist rates could have contributed some to this. Meplat measures 68% so that is a good size, but the edges of the meplat are SHARP---need a radius on there like the BBW #13s.

As you can see the spaces between the bands are not uniform on some, getting some engraving all the way down the bullet. The other bullet engraving is only touching the bands. Some quality control here, and get that space between the bands deeper. Barrel strains were good on the one bullet we managed to get a reading on, however the diameter as Sam and I both measured was .4725, which is a tad under.

BNisbet is on a good track here, just needs some refining and as stated this is a first run prototype, they all have improvements from there, one hardly ever comes straight out the gate perfect on a first run!

Light for caliber solids and NonCons. As soon as the B&Ms in 475 B&M and 475 B&M Super Short hit the ground they will be shooting NEW North Fork 425 gr FPS and CPS for the 475 B&M, and 350 FPS and CPS for the Super Short version. That will be followed by a brass CEB BBW#13s in solids and NonCons as well, enhancing both those cartridges to upper end power levels!!!!!!! Remember, SD takes a back seat to nose profiles and NonCons!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Yesterday terminals made up mostly 416 caliber, the new 400 CEB BBW #13 Solid and it's matching 370 gr NonCon HP, both brass of course.

Sam just finished his new 416 B&M with a 1:12 twist barrel, and of course my 416 B&Ms with their 1:14 twist barrels. I had not had the best of luck with 400s in the 1:14, but this is the first #13 in 400 grs as well. So one thing we wanted to see if there was a difference in 1:14 and 1:12, and there is. However, the big difference is in the bullet itself, the #13 nose profile, it did extremely well in the 416 B&M and the 1:14 twist. So good in fact that I would have zero issues taking this bullet to the field in the 416 B&M. In the B&Ms however I don't think the 400 is any better than the 350, a slight bump on depth of penetration, exactly as it should be if the 400 can be stabilized at the lower velocity of 2250-2275 fps, in the B&M. While it was not 100% stable in 1 bullet, it was plenty good enough over the entire range of penetration that I would have all the confidence in the world in it.




Indeed the 1:12 gave the bullet just that one extra bit of stability over the 1:14, at least in these limited tests thus far. It is a very slight difference, but I feel like in future tests this will hold out, and if I was building a 416 TODAY--then I would opt for 1:12.




Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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michael458


I've been to the Accurate Innovations home site to watch the viedo on shooting the B&M 50. Don't know if the guy was hamming it up a bit rubbing his shoulder but the recoil seems substantial. Is it sharp like the 378 Wby?
 
Posts: 404 | Registered: 08 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Good tests and commentary. The fun has begun. beer

Yes, I would recommend 1 in 12" twist for .416, too.

Unfortunately, the widely affordable CZ550 in 416 Rigby uses 1 in 16.5" twist because of tradition, assuming that someone choosing a Rigby over a Remington might be more interested in tradition than ballistics. Even the relatively recent development of the 416 Ruger only uses a 1 in 14" twist, apparently still thinking in terms of lead-core bullets in shorter lengths than non-cons and mono-metals.

The good report, here, is that a 1 in 12" twist gave the 400 grain a full 69" penetration. Not too shabby. tu2 Maybe our 416 Rigbys could do that in 350 grain solid by pushing the velocity up to 2800 fps. Or at least 2600 fps.

I tell anyone with a Rigby in CZ 550 with 16.5" twist, as you have frequently done on this thread, to limit themselves to shorter, 350 grain flatnoses for reliable, straight penetration.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4214 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
quote:
michael458


I've been to the Accurate Innovations home site to watch the viedo on shooting the B&M 50. Don't know if the guy was hamming it up a bit rubbing his shoulder but the recoil seems substantial. Is it sharp like the 378 Wby?



HEH HEH HEH


IBT

The boys at AI don't have much experience with big bore rifles, so I think you can see that they are not so used to it, hold a little loose, not quite tight in the front, gun moves WAY more than you would normally see. It' s not NEAR as bad as the video shows. Honestly. The short gun is a 458 B&M, and they had a 500 MDM there for a bit as well. The recoil is sharp on the B&Ms, I have never shot a 378 W so I can't compare. The 458 B&M has no more recoil than a standard 458 Winchester for sure, the 50 B&M a tad more--500 MDM a bit more depending on the load. None of which are in any way unmanageable.

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Good tests and commentary. The fun has begun. beer

Yes, I would recommend 1 in 12" twist for .416, too.

Unfortunately, the widely affordable CZ550 in 416 Rigby uses 1 in 16.5" twist because of tradition, assuming that someone choosing a Rigby over a Remington might be more interested in tradition than ballistics. Even the relatively recent development of the 416 Ruger only uses a 1 in 14" twist, apparently still thinking in terms of lead-core bullets in shorter lengths than non-cons and mono-metals.

The good report, here, is that a 1 in 12" twist gave the 400 grain a full 69" penetration. Not too shabby. tu2 Maybe our 416 Rigbys could do that in 350 grain solid by pushing the velocity up to 2800 fps. Or at least 2600 fps.

I tell anyone with a Rigby in CZ 550 with 16.5" twist, as you have frequently done on this thread, to limit themselves to shorter, 350 grain flatnoses for reliable, straight penetration.



Tanzan

I am in full agreement with each of your statements. I still have some reports to post, the next one is a 416 Rem with increased velocity and 1:14. Velocity does stabilize as well, as it is one of our Major Factors in terminal penetration, as noted many times. We can see it go to work in the next post on the 400 CEB BBW#13. Yes, velocity would increase penetration of the 350 no doubts. But even at modest velocity the 350 still does extremely good, BBW #13 coming in above 60 inches. I do not feel under gunned at all with the 350 BBW #13 Solid. But now, I am very happy with the 400 as well.

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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What are our factors of terminal performance for solids--In order of importance as I see it?
1. Nose Profile
2. Meplat Size
3. Radius
4. Twist Rate
5. Velocity
6. Construction
7. SD

Now it can be argued that maybe Twist rate is more important than Radius, or perhaps velocity is more important than twist rate--nothing more important that Nose Profile and Meplat Size, but perhaps some leeway on some of the other factors.

I have several Winchester M70s in 416 Remington, one of which is a SS version that I use when I need a bump in velocity for test work. I am told it is a 1:14 Twist rate, so that's what I call it. So now we have a 400 CEB BBW #13 Brass Solid (Nose Profile)---67% meplat--CEB BBW Radius--1:14 Twist rate--All of these the exact SAME as in the 416 B&M with the 1:14 Twist Rate. Construction and SD are the same--It's the same bullet----THE ONLY Differing factor now is "VELOCITY". Now you can see how much difference that 181 fps makes with this bullet.



Roughly an 8% increase in velocity gave us roughly an increase of 13% in penetration. It also allowed the bullet to give dead straight penetration as well. Velocity is an important factor to consider, as we already know.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Velocity at impact.

Seems to me that if the "normal" range to target is to be somewhere around 50 yards and the tests are being done at 22 yards, the impact velocity is going to drop enough that the 1:14 twist launched bullet is going to run into stability issues. Confused
 
Posts: 404 | Registered: 08 May 2005Reply With Quote
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78 inches is good for me.

And my calculation is that a similar momentum would require about 2800fps with a 350 grain flatnose. It should be similar in penetration with a similar nose. You will need a Rigby-sized 416 cartridge to reach 2800 fps, but you might get the opportunity one of these days. [[102 grains Rel 17 in a 416 Rigby should do it, a grain or two less if the case weighs 340 grains.]]


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4214 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Velocity at impact.

Seems to me that if the "normal" range to target is to be somewhere around 50 yards and the tests are being done at 22 yards, the impact velocity is going to drop enough that the 1:14 twist launched bullet is going to run into stability issues. Confused



I wouldn't worry too much. The 2440fps bullet will probably be going around 2260fps at 50 yards. Penetration should be just fine. And this is for the long 400 grain flatnose.

The 350 grain flatnoses are much shorter, therefore much more stable at all hunting velocities and reasonable twists.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4214 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
Velocity at impact.

Seems to me that if the "normal" range to target is to be somewhere around 50 yards and the tests are being done at 22 yards, the impact velocity is going to drop enough that the 1:14 twist launched bullet is going to run into stability issues. Confused




IBT

I have done just about as much shooting at 25 and under on DG as I have between 25-50. I hate getting outside that 50 yd range, which I more or less begin to consider "long". I have started the dance as close as a matter of a few feet on bear, 6 yds on hippo, as close as 9 yds on elephant, and many a buffalo at 25 and less. Probably a few getting to 50 yds, and only 1 that I can remember starting at 90. So I think 22 yds--25 yds is a good place to test for DG. Now the exact reason it's 22 yds is the fact that my test box is placed in front of the impact boxes, which are dead at 25 yds from the 25 yd bench on the range. I am a bit too lazy to move my bench back 3 yds to make it perfect every time I do terminals! So I hang tight with an actual 22 yds.

OK read you post again, I am confused. Too fast. 1;14 might become unstable at lower velocity--50 yds. Maybe??? Don't know. I can lower velocity down to 2000 fps or so to simulate that, or I can test at actual 50 yds either way. NOt a bad suggestion, but I think it the BBW #13 will hold stability, because of the bullet. I also think the North Fork would do the same, as it did not do a bad job at all in a recent test as well.



Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
quote:
Velocity at impact.

Seems to me that if the "normal" range to target is to be somewhere around 50 yards and the tests are being done at 22 yards, the impact velocity is going to drop enough that the 1:14 twist launched bullet is going to run into stability issues. Confused



I wouldn't worry too much. The 2440fps bullet will probably be going around 2260fps at 50 yards. Penetration should be just fine. And this is for the long 400 grain flatnose.

The 350 grain flatnoses are much shorter, therefore much more stable at all hunting velocities and reasonable twists.




Tanzan and IBT

I would think that the 350s--370s would be stable in most any 1:14 to 1:16 twist rates period.

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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OK read you post again, I am confused. Too fast. 1;14 might become unstable at lower velocity--50 yds. Maybe??? Don't know. I can lower velocity down to 2000 fps or so to simulate that, or I can test at actual 50 yds either way. NOt a bad suggestion, but I think it the BBW #13 will hold stability, because of the bullet. I also think the North Fork would do the same, as it did not do a bad job at all in a recent test as well.
You might want to do both...lower velocity to 1900fps and move to the 50yd line. If the BBW #13's are stable at that distance and muzzle velocity from the 1:14" barrels then there should be no issues.


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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NonCons are incredible bullets. They are so damned consistent in the way they operate it is unreal. The brass, just count that regardless of caliber, regardless of velocity the blades are going to shear consistently and perform as designed time after time. The new 370 gr BBW #13 NonCon is no different. It's the match to the 400 CEB BBW#13 Solid (same exact bullet, just an HP and Lighter) So far in every rifle shot the solid/NonCon have the same POI at 50 yds, and so far, the velocity with the same load has been the same in both noncon and solid, or very close to it.

For the first time in yesterdays test I had a BBW #13 get confused after shedding it's petals or blades and turned around in the test medium and found ass forward! It looks exactly like the other one that drove 100% straight and found nose forward? I suspect it found something in the test medium it did not like, perhaps the backing from on of the magazines, or an inconsistency of some sort. With it being a NonCon, I have little concern over the issue anyway, as it still penetrated to 27 inches! Far more than ANY conventional premium can do. The other bullet, at 31 Inches! I plan on doing some NonCon work again next week. I will revisit this again.



Trauma to test medium is wicked.

I will also be doing a lot of POI tests with the 416s next week. We have 325/350 NonCon/Solid, and 370/400 NonCon/Solid. Will be interesting to see POI with all 4 of them. Also doing pressure traces on 416 and these bullets as well! Sam an I ran a few of these a little hot yesterday, one at 69000 and the other at 71000! Might need to calm those down a tad! HEH HEH!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by capoward:
quote:
OK read you post again, I am confused. Too fast. 1;14 might become unstable at lower velocity--50 yds. Maybe??? Don't know. I can lower velocity down to 2000 fps or so to simulate that, or I can test at actual 50 yds either way. NOt a bad suggestion, but I think it the BBW #13 will hold stability, because of the bullet. I also think the North Fork would do the same, as it did not do a bad job at all in a recent test as well.
You might want to do both...lower velocity to 1900fps and move to the 50yd line. If the BBW #13's are stable at that distance and muzzle velocity from the 1:14" barrels then there should be no issues.



Jim

Yes, that can be done, must find a minute to work that into the test program. Ya'll don't let me forget that next week!

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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100,000 views
Congrats!


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
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Posts: 26823 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Thanks for the tests, Michael. I thought they were very revealing.

I was surprised by the decent performance of the .470 with such a light bullet, even though it veered. My question is: Might it have performed better with a slightly faster twist?

Your tests confirmed what I had already suspected about .416 FN performance. Pretty phenomenal penetration! In fact, I might as well go on and say that the .416 would be my big bore of choice for Africa. Your .416 B&M seems to provide this performance in an efficient package.

FWIW, I had estimated that the .470 Nitro would go 50-60 inches. The two lower velocity 400 grain .416s from 69 to 83 inches, while the higher velocity Remington round from 73 to 87 ins. Finally, the estimate for the 370 grain NonCon was 31-37".


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Posts: 942 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 16 July 2007Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by boom stick:
100,000 views
Congrats!


Boomy

That's incredible! 14 months at that.

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Glenn

Very welcome, but I had good help as well yesterday with Sam.

As for the 470 412 gr bullet, yes, I think a faster twist would have been of great assistance, along with a better radius on the edge of the meplat.

The 416 performance is rather impressive. I still am not so convinced about 416 in some areas, but one cannot say much about the performance of both the #13s in 350 and 400 now. I get a little warmer feeling about the 416 B&M myself. I just don't have enough trips planned right now to get to some buffalo with a 416. Maybe next year. I shot one buff in 2007 with the 416 and it did well. But what I am talking about now is an entirely different level of performance with the NonCons as first shot.

As for your predictions, not too bad, pretty much spot on with the lower end.


You might get this prediction/estimate down pat soon!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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100,000 views
Congrats!


Yep, congratulations!

jumping


_________________________

Glenn

 
Posts: 942 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 16 July 2007Reply With Quote
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Michael,

Sure hope you are getting happier w/416 B&M

I believe some of us are planning on trying them on Buff-hate to think you werent happy and just experimenting on us.

jumping sofa

hey thanks for all the good work-I am looking forward to more 416 results. the main question I have now is about the velocities for the non-con and soft point of some sort at longer ranges. Its looking like the 350 gr is working and you can get that running fast enough from what i have seen.

patiently waiting patiently- tu2

SSR
 
Posts: 6725 | Location: central Texas | Registered: 05 August 2010Reply With Quote
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Michael,

Given the results of the seating depth experiment on Sams 470 double, think it's worth doing a brief test run with the 4-band CEB #13s in another caliber (unless you've done it and I missed the results)?

Just wondering if the 4-bander is more sensative to seating depth than multi-banded bullets.


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STILL waiting for my Taksdale double or a refund

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Posts: 3407 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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Doc

So far in the B&Ms and the 500 MDM I have just been seating the 3+1 bands where they fit in the magazines of the Winchesters, and they have shown no issues with that. I did have an issue with the 50 B&M and the first run of .500 solids with 4 even spaced bands--seated deep I needed a second band to straighten them out going in the bore, accuracy was horrible. Seated long, and no jump into the forcing cone they did fine. But that is not the 3 top and 1 bottom band version.

I am doing some shooting this week, I will seat some long, some short and some all sorts of ways and we will try them and see.



Cross

In the 416 B&M I think I would still go for buff with the 325/350 NonCon/Solid versions. Plenty of velocity in those, and the NonCon has just as much penetration as the larger 370.

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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416 370 grains = .305 SD
How about a 370 grain solid and 340 grain death hex non con?


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

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Posts: 26823 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Request for those doing field tests on buffalo this coming year.

Should the opportunity occur, I ask that someone try a neck spinal shot - the buffalo in a frontal position with the head up facing the shooter - using a noncon (first shot). The shot should be placed on the body middle about 6 (six) inches below the bottom of the chin. BOOM
 
Posts: 404 | Registered: 08 May 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
quote:
Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
quote:
michael458


I've been to the Accurate Innovations home site to watch the viedo on shooting the B&M 50. Don't know if the guy was hamming it up a bit rubbing his shoulder but the recoil seems substantial. Is it sharp like the 378 Wby?



HEH HEH HEH


IBT

The boys at AI don't have much experience with big bore rifles, so I think you can see that they are not so used to it, hold a little loose, not quite tight in the front, gun moves WAY more than you would normally see. It' s not NEAR as bad as the video shows. Honestly. The short gun is a 458 B&M, and they had a 500 MDM there for a bit as well. The recoil is sharp on the B&Ms, I have never shot a 378 W so I can't compare. The 458 B&M has no more recoil than a standard 458 Winchester for sure, the 50 B&M a tad more--500 MDM a bit more depending on the load. None of which are in any way unmanageable.

M


I've noticed that you shoot military style with your two arms at a right angle, the one arm horizonal to the ground, the other arm vertical to the ground. I do the same myself.

Others, many PH, seem to wrap themselves around the gun, hugging it with both arms almost vertical, the body hunched forward, and leaning into the gun.

I probably rotate more than the PH style of hold. I remember Elmer Keith saying that little guys (I am NOT a little guy) who rotate with the recoil can handle a big bore better than big guys who try to over power the recoil.

All getting at whether I can handle the 50 B&M.
Wink
IBT
 
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quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
416 370 grains = .305 SD
How about a 370 grain solid and 340 grain death hex non con?

Heck maybe a comparison of a BBW 13 flat nose solid same charge 340 grain .281 SD 416 diameter, 370 grain .305 SD and 400 grain solid and compare damage and straight line penetration.
A tipped 310 grain 416 non con and 340 grain solid might be all you need in 416


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

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Posts: 26823 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
quote:
Originally posted by capoward:
quote:
OK read you post again, I am confused. Too fast. 1;14 might become unstable at lower velocity--50 yds. Maybe??? Don't know. I can lower velocity down to 2000 fps or so to simulate that, or I can test at actual 50 yds either way. NOt a bad suggestion, but I think it the BBW #13 will hold stability, because of the bullet. I also think the North Fork would do the same, as it did not do a bad job at all in a recent test as well.
You might want to do both...lower velocity to 1900fps and move to the 50yd line. If the BBW #13's are stable at that distance and muzzle velocity from the 1:14" barrels then there should be no issues.
Jim

Yes, that can be done, must find a minute to work that into the test program. Ya'll don't let me forget that next week!

M
Michael,

LOL...I'll be back home this weekend so most definitely I'll pester you next week if not accomplished mid-week.

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
100,000 views
Congrats!
tu2 tu2 tu2

quote:
Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael,

Sure hope you are getting happier w/416 B&M

I believe some of us are planning on trying them on Buff-hate to think you weren’t happy and just experimenting on us.

SSR
SSR,

When I shot Michael’s rifles in Oregon this summer the 416 B&M was my favorite. That is until I shot his 50 B&M a few months later in California. Now they’re both my favorite B&Ms!


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
A tipped 310 grain 416 non con and 340 grain solid might be all you need in 416


Now we're talking. The plastic tip can be anything from 310 to 350. It will be a reach out
and touch ... hard, kind of bullet.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
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Posts: 4214 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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As for your predictions, not too bad, pretty much spot on with the lower end.


You might get this prediction/estimate down pat soon!


Yeah, the spread is pretty wide. That's what I don't particularly like about it. So far the general trend is that big bore bullets at 2000+ fps will be in the lower range. But not always! I'm pretty sure that the resisting force of the target has a lot to do with it, but that's not an easy thing to figure. There are probably other variables that aren't real easy to quantify.

One thing that got me to wondering was the "texture" of the flat nosed bullet. Those with a sharper edge might penetrate less than those with a smoother and more rounded edge. So far that's just a hypothesis, though.


_________________________

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Posts: 942 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 16 July 2007Reply With Quote
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M -those .416" 400 grs BBW#13`s work incredibly well, I think I have to order some, guess they will penetrate somewhat further in my 416 Wby with 1-12" twist at 2750-2780 fps muzzlevel.. Dont you have a 416 Rigby to try these at higher vel? 2600+ fps should be possible in the Rigby, just to see what it will do?
Same thing with the 750 grs BBW#13 in .585" - would be very interesting to see how much further additional vel would take them.. If 71" penetration at around 2000 fps was possible then what will happen at lets say 2300 fps or even better - at 2500 fps?
 
Posts: 873 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
quote:
A tipped 310 grain 416 non con and 340 grain solid might be all you need in 416


Now we're talking. The plastic tip can be anything from 310 to 350. It will be a reach out
and touch ... hard, kind of bullet.



Well the wonderful thing is, one can have that exactly if that is what you want. However, we have a 350 solid and 325 NonCon as is? I think that is close enough. And yes, in 416 this is more than enough to do anything you want.

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
M -those .416" 400 grs BBW#13`s work incredibly well, I think I have to order some, guess they will penetrate somewhat further in my 416 Wby with 1-12" twist at 2750-2780 fps muzzlevel.. Dont you have a 416 Rigby to try these at higher vel? 2600+ fps should be possible in the Rigby, just to see what it will do?
Same thing with the 750 grs BBW#13 in .585" - would be very interesting to see how much further additional vel would take them.. If 71" penetration at around 2000 fps was possible then what will happen at lets say 2300 fps or even better - at 2500 fps?



Buffalo

Oh yes, for sure in your 1:12 416 Wby the 400/370 combo would be totally incredible. Yes, I have a Ruger #1 in 416 Rigby. Problem is I am a little lazy to set it up for testing. I also have not done much development with it, since it won't ever go out. Maybe I get not so lazy one day when looking for something to do.

When Dan gets back from Shot Show he will be making two runs of .585s, copper and brass, and then a run of .620s in brass as well.

M


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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I posted this down on doubles yesterday, but concerning a different subject. Here I want to just show you POI at 50 yds with the 510 Wells, very modest load of 96/RL 15 and the 570 CEB BBW #13 Brass Solid along with it's companion 535 CEB BBW #13 NonCon HP. Also, this is a load I have never shot in the rifle or tested. In some of the terminals I did with the NonCon I used 95/RL 15, and bumped it a gr for the 50 yd POI to get velocity up to 2100.

This all makes good sense when you think about it. They are the exact same bullet, same bands, same everything, except one is a HP NonCon, the other a solid. Same velocity, same load, same POI, the only thing that changes with these is the lighter NonCon HP always has a tiny bit less pressure, around 5000 psi less on average in everything I have tested.

This load was actually fun to shoot as well, very light on one. Of course it's in a POS Ruger, but it does shoot well. And if I could shoot better these would all be 1 hole instead of a clover leaf!

I think I must load some 500 MDM down to 2100 fps with these to play with as well.




Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
Doc

So far in the B&Ms and the 500 MDM I have just been seating the 3+1 bands where they fit in the magazines of the Winchesters, and they have shown no issues with that. I did have an issue with the 50 B&M and the first run of .500 solids with 4 even spaced bands--seated deep I needed a second band to straighten them out going in the bore, accuracy was horrible. Seated long, and no jump into the forcing cone they did fine. But that is not the 3 top and 1 bottom band version.

I am doing some shooting this week, I will seat some long, some short and some all sorts of ways and we will try them and see.



Cross

In the 416 B&M I think I would still go for buff with the 325/350 NonCon/Solid versions. Plenty of velocity in those, and the NonCon has just as much penetration as the larger 370.

M


Hmmm...
could that have been the problem in the 470? That when they were seated long and since the 470 is a tapered case the "three plus one" bands didnt provide enough concentric tension to keep the bullet straight in the case, thus similar results as the 500?

Probbably wont be a problem in the 600 since it is nearly straight walled case but we'll see ...


NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
STILL waiting for my Taksdale double or a refund

Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
 
Posts: 3407 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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