I think our media is working great, just as I have thought it would.

The idea of any penetration media is repeatability, so every bullet can be compared with others.

The expansion at the lower velocities if great, as I thought they might.

They also held together very well at the higher velocities.

Shot Winchester’s 300 grain FMJ.

2438 FPS.

Recovered two bullets, the third changed direction, came out of the box about 2 feet in.

I cannot find it.

These penetrated further than the lighter, hollow point bullets, which is expected.

One of the bullets recovered was facing backwards.

And all bullets tumbled!!??

This is a very good study. You do all the work and we get all the benefits! Thanks my friend!

How about those heavily marketed DG solid bullets from the big names in the business that don't perform/penetrate properly at all, like those Winch. 300 gr FMJ. (Tumble and swerve inside the animal and never make to the heart.)
Just a few years ago when I started to research bullets for buffalo like CEB and NF, I learned that there are a lot of shitty hunting bullet on the market that people think are excellent.

Fortunately, aficionados like you and B&M take the time and substance to do the R&D that the some of the big names in bullet manufacturing don't seem to care about. The rest of us can really benefit from your work. Also we can hunt DG safer.

I see these YouTube videos of cape buffalo hunters hitting a buffalo in the shoulder at close range with a 500NE and having to hit him again and again. I have not had to do that with monolithic bullets that I have used.
They are using outdated bullets, usually round nosed, I am guessing.

Saeed, Thanks again for sharing your research. I am learning from it.

So the Dubai Box is good enough to show the weakness of the RN FMJ.
Good work.
I quit using them in any of my Iron Waterboard Buffalo tests because I had to repair the side members too often if they were tried.
Plumb squirrely those round nose solids are.

Well, the RWS VMANTEL FMJ RN did the same.

Out of three bullets only one stayed in the box.

Two disappeared by changing directions!

The rifle I am using is a Sako 85 With a 21.5 inch barrel.

That is a bunch of work.
The gallery awaits some interpretation,
whenever Saeed can catch his breath.

Saeed, have you tested the Winchester 270 grain Fail Safes yet? I have a lot of Fail Safes in .338" and I am curious how yours will hold up in your tough media.

This is our set up.

Box is 6 feet long.

6mm MDF dividers.

Then silicone/sand, modeling clay alternating.

First 2 silicone sand mixture are 2 inch thick.

Then they are one inch.

The clay are 1.5 inch thick.

The test continues, and I will try all types of bullets that I have.

A plot of depth of penetration as a function of velocity
for any one bullet make
would be very interesting.

What bullet and velocity has thus far shown the greatest depth of penetration ?

Doc,

I will post complete details, of where each bullet was recovered.

Shooting expanding bullets is taking time, because they tear the clay to pieces, and we have to use new packs.

I have your phone numbers, but non is on WhatsApp.

If you are on WhatsApp send me your number and I will send you pictures.

Saeed,
I would love to analyze your data however I might.
I have saved every photo on this thread to my iPhone
by two touches of screen.
I don't do anything social-media-wise except this site,
email, imgur.com, and messages on my iPhone.
PM here please if I may be of assistance.

How did the Failsafes perform compared to similar hollow points?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Doc,

I will post complete details, of where each bullet was recovered.

Shooting expanding bullets is taking time, because they tear the clay to pieces, and we have to use new packs.

I have your phone numbers, but non is on WhatsApp.

If you are on WhatsApp send me your number and I will send you pictures.

PM sent. Thank you very much

So far we had no surprises.

All known good bullets performed well.

Ron,

Whatsapp is not a socialy media app.

It is a messaging app, where one communicates directly with those he wishes to on his phone.

And if you like photos and short videos from friends, you will love it.

I do use with with many friends all over the world.

It is the preferred means of communications between many of us rather than email.

It is direct, and immediate.

In fact, the photos you see posted are all taken by my phone, for the simple reason that I send them to friends who are interested much easier than using a camera and transferring that to the computer and the phone.

Saeed,
Whatstheheck,
WhatsApp is installed on my phone now.
I have been dragged kicking and screaming into an "app" owned by Face Book.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Saeed,
Whatstheheck,
WhatsApp is installed on my phone now.
I have been dragged kicking and screaming into an "app" owned by Face Book.

Ron,

I will be getting it in 10 years time. Given I am 72, a life long smoker etc. that means I won't be getting the thing. I think Saeed is trying to appeal to the young American and Australian girls

That 375 bullet that is completely hollowed out at the front would be just the thing for spotlight shooting and doubly so in a 378. A 45 version in the 460 would be good.

I thought this might be the easiest format to post the photos giving all the relevant details.

Any questions will be gladly answered.

Weight of the original bullet, and the weight of each of the recovered bullets.

The distance in penetration.

The penetration box is divided in 3.5 inch partitions.

Each partition is separated by a 6mm MDF board.

Then there is a 2 inch thick silicone/sand mixture, 1.5 inch modeling clay, 2 inch silicone/sans, 1.5 inch modelling clay, 1 inch silicone sand, 1.5 inch modeling clay, 1 inch silicone and so on.

Mike,
Apps are quite the nuisance, eh?
Oh well, Saeed did send 83 pics and one video file directly to a WhatsApp album in my phone.
Trouble is, I already had 105 photos saved from this thread in another album, and the little video was the only new thing.
I look again today and see new numbers right here on this thread:



Above is a pencil & paper start at some graphing.
I bet there is some app that will make graphs too.
Anywho,
it seems the first two compartments of the Dubai Buffalo Box are pretty darn tough,
like the exterior of a dagga boy.
And the design of the Crater Point guarantees its retained weight is about the same for any impact speed over 1800 fps.
Penetration depth was same for 1821 fps to 2009 fps.
This suggests there is more than a simple first-order penetration medium going on here.
It is a higher-order medium where resistance goes up as velocity goes up.
The sample size and the velocity range is not as great as it could be,
but I certainly would hate to see Saeed work himself to death.

Surely the higher velocity bullets make a bigger permanent wound channel ?
Maybe adding just one little extra measurement like "maximum wound diameter" to the data would add some more resolution to the small sample sizes?

And how far does a 300-ish-grain copper FN solid penetrate,
compared to a lighter one at slightly higher velocity ?

The Dubai Buffalo Box is mighty tough on soft points.
It will take some FN solids to plumb its depths.

Saeed,
No more round nose solids please, too much work repairing the sides of the box,
would be a colossal waste of your time.

Tht 185 grain in a 378 would certainly be something.

To develop the same KE as the 270 grain at 3150 f/s the 185 grain would be doing 3800 f/s Very pleasant to fire with muzzle brake on and no ear muffs

It seems high velocity, and HP do cause quite a bit of damage in the clay.

I will post these photos too.

6 inch holes are caused by some of the bullets at high velocity in the clay.

I have finished shooting all the available bullets I have in 375.

I have other types of bullets in other calibers, and will try those too.

But, first I would like to compile all the data for this one and post it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It seems high velocity, and HP do cause quite a bit of damage in the clay.

I will post these photos too.

Photo with a ruler beside the hole for scale please ?
(No, I did not mean a selfie of Saeed standing beside Walter.)
Or a printed measurement on the photo of the hole would be great !

6 inch holes are caused by some of the bullets at high velocity in the clay.



I have finished shooting all the available bullets I have in 375.

Hopefully including some of those 300-ish-gr and 250-ish-grain FN solids.

I have other types of bullets in other calibers, and will try those too.

But, first I would like to compile all the data for this one and post it.

This concludes my test of the 375H&H.

And as the box is already in the runnel, and we have additional material, I am going to run some tests on 30 caliber bullets in the 300 Winchester Magnum.

I have all sorts of bullets, so should be interesting to see the results.

This is going to be interesting.

Just fired 3 shots Sierra 168 MK, 3293 fps.

Totally disintegrated in the first clay block.

The bullets just disappeared, managed to get two small pieces weighing 33 grains total!

Bravo !

It will take many hours to look at the above compilation. Some very interesting findings there,
some puzzles and some clear winners and losers.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This is going to be interesting.

Just fired 3 shots Sierra 168 MK, 3293 fps.

Totally disintegrated in the first clay block.

The bullets just disappeared, managed to get two small pieces weighing 33 grains total!

Wow ! Actually made it through 2" of Silicone-Sand-Rubber to explode in the 1.5"-thick modeling clay ?
Any damage to the first MDF board ?
Careful, you might get the Match King thread going again.

Great test Saeed. Thankyou for all your hard work on this.
Overall, from my quick flicking through the photos and info, it seems best .375 results are obtained with bullet weights 200 gns and upwards over a range of different velocities and bullet styles. I'm amazed at how well bullets held together when forced through media much tougher than any game body parts or organs.

This totally unconventional mix seems to represent real life hunting performance.

I have hunted with Sierra Match Kings, shot many animals, all died with one shot, causing massive, mostly surface damage.

Zebra was shot, hit on the point of the shoulder, dropped stone dead where he stood.

180 grain SMK, muzzle velocity was about 3480 fps from a 30/404.

Bullet created a crater on the shoulder almost a foot wide, but never made it past the shoulder blade.

No bullet was found.

Nyala, shot in the chest facing, same bullet.

Jumped up and down a couple of times and dropped dead.

Again, the bullet never made it into the chest cavity.

Similar performance on other animals.

Massive cavities created by the 168 SMK in the clay.

I shot the Lapua MEGA 185 hunting bullet, only managed to recover small pieces

Some puzzles here, check me for typos and arithmetic:

Our current design Walterhog 300 grains are specifically designed NOT to over penetrate.

They almost always exit on broadside shots, but not on quartering shots, on buffalo.

Previous design would penetrate a cape buffalo from tail to neck.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Our current design Walterhog 300 grains are specifically designed NOT to over penetrate.

It finished #6 out of 15 in the list above, so your hollow point wizardry was a success. Still strong at 33.8" and 91.4% weight retention.

They almost always exit on broadside shots, but not on quartering shots, on buffalo.

Previous design would penetrate a cape buffalo from tail to neck.

Saeed,
If you can design the penetration out of a hollow point .375"/ 300-grainer,
how do you design it into a .375"/ 235-grainer ?
This is the most surprising thing so far in this testing, IMHO:





What jumps out at me is that the HP did not tumble,
all turned relatively uniformly into CG-forward Wide FN penetrators of short length, same shape,
dart and shoulder stabilized,
by reliably blowing off their noses.

The FN bullets all tumbled in this 235-gr weight,
got sanded on all sides.
Muzzle Velocity was practically the same for all six of these bullets,
and relatively high compared to all the others except the 185-gr Crater Point funnzie bullet.

I am afraid Ism not much into theories.

I found that if I reduce the diameter of the hollow point from 2.5mm to 2mm, then make about 9-10mm deep, the bullet will go the whole length of a buffalo.

I reduced that noticeably by increasing the the hollow point to 2.5mm and making it 12mm deep!

Basic design of all bullets are the same, only difference would be the length due to the weight difference.

Yep. That is what is working. It’s why the good mono metals work and the bad ones don’t. It’s also why the Nosler partition has been reliably good for decades.



What jumps out at me is that the HP did not tumble,
all turned relatively uniformly into CG-forward Wide FN penetrators of short length, same shape,
dart and shoulder stabilized,
by reliably blowing off their noses[/quote]

Saeed,

No "unified-field theories" here, yet, just observations and guesses.

So your hollow point was 2.5mm diameter and 12mm deep ?
Nose shape was same for both 235-gr bullets ?
Tiny FN meplat and FN solid bullet is shorter than the hollow point bullet of same 235-gr weight ?

Not pictured in the original lineup ?
I cannot find a pair to match the 235-grainers here:



How about a picture of the 235-gr HP and 235-gr FN side by side, pretty please ?

Side by side they exactly the same.

Only difference is I block the drill from making the hollow point.

Same program.

This is a function of FANUC, which works great for me.

Instead of having two separate programs, one does both bullets.

Saeed, I think you have proven that it is hard to go wrong when choosing premium expanding bullets - which is very encouraging.

Thanks for posting this test.

Saeed: IMPOSSIBLE !

How are they the same in length, shape and weight ?
Two .375-caliber/ 235-gr bullets:
If one is a hollow point and one is an FN solid,
and they have the same external shape profile,
and they have the same weight ?

The hollow point bullet has to be wider somewhere between meplat and base, if they weigh the same, and have the same length,
i.e., you changed the program to make the base heavier (less tapered boat tail) on the 235-gr HP.
They cannot have the same weight if they are the same in external profile.

Either they are different weights or they have a difference externally,
to make up for the missing copper in the hollow point cavity.

What are the lengths of the two bullets, HP and FN, or what do they really weigh, the FN and HP "235-grainers" ?

A small difference in lengths/diameters or a small difference in weights ?

This will be an even more astounding achievement if the "235-gr HP" is lighter than the "235-gr Tiny Meplat FN."

They are different in weight, by the amount of removed for the hollow point.

Not much.

Biggest difference is between the 185 cavity point and the solid of that same bullet.

The solid weighs at 250, which gives you an idea of the size of the hollow point.

Saeed:

Thank you !
Can you confirm that the hollow point is 2.5mm X 12mm on the "235-gr" HP bullet ?
We can calculate the weight difference from that.

And, as originally intended,
was it the hollow point that was supposed to be 235 grains, so the FN is heavier than 235 grains ?