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Subsonic bullet performance on game animals
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So as to avoid clogging up MJines' thread on his tasty new acquisition I have started this thread to canvass experience on the performance of subsonic loads.

All of my rifles are suppressed for hunting, mainly for the protection of my hearing and thereby allowing me to hunt without ear protection which is much safer on our small and over crowded island.

With normal supersonic loads for the rifle and cartridge in question, the performance is of course identical to an unsuppressed rifle of the same cartridge.

Certain circumstances call for as close to absolute silence as possible and this where subsonic loads come into their own.

A supressed .22 LR bolt action with subsonic ammunition ( Winchester, Eley and RWS do well here, especially the Eley) means that the loudest noise is the thump of the bullet hitting the animal.

The trouble is that this is only really suitable for rabbits and perhaps a close range fox with a head shot.

My preferred rifle for shooting larger subsonic rounds is my 1-11" Sako 308 which has a BR Toute T8 moderator fitted, very heavy and bulky but also very efficient. Much more efficient that many of the more modern jobs made of exotic materials according to my ear. I use trail boss powder to get the right speed and it works very well, so far suppressing, if you'll excuse the pun, any desire to get something like a Blackout.

There are a few problems with this approach.

1. The twist limits the weight ( well length really ) of bullets that may be used at subsonic velocities, whilst a 200 grain bullet may stabilise at 2400-2500 it will not at 1050fps. This limit is particularly painful considering the relatively broad range of nonmetallic bullets available from companies like Lehigh and CBC as they seem to start from ~180 grains and up.

2. That shooting cast lead bullets in the same barrel as full house jacketed 308 loads doesn't really work without scrubbing the bore spotless first so you can't just "have a couple in your pocket" for field expediency work.

3. That ordinary bullets like the Sierra 125 sp, the Nosler 125gr BT, the berger 110 varmint, etc simply don't open up.

4. That heavy bullets like the 240gr SMK popular in factory subsonic rounds like the 300 blackout ricochet like crazy and are frankly dangerous outside of a range or a war or something.

In consideration of the above I am currently leaning towards the idea of a pure lead cast bullet with a huge hollowpoint ( possibly have to be a custom mold) with maybe a paper patch to keep from fouling like crazy/being affected by jacket residue in the bore.

Any thoughts?
 
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With Quote
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A friend of mine casts 150gr. .264 lead bullets for a 6.5 Creedmoor. He gave me some to try and told me to use Trail Boss powder. Starting load in the 15gr range and load down 1gr at a time until shooting noiseless fully suppressed.

I have not tried them yet but he hunts hogs suppressed and subsonic and does know his stuff. He says not to try to use jacketed bullets subsonic. They don't work well.

Range is naturally going to be close. You might give "Cast Boolets" forum a try for more information. As soon as I can get my suppressor made I will try loading them to see how they work.

Joe
 
Posts: 1111 | Location: Blooming Grove, Tx. | Registered: 28 June 2012Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Joe Henderson:
A friend of mine casts 150gr. .264 lead bullets for a 6.5 Creedmoor. He gave me some to try and told me to use Trail Boss powder. Starting load in the 15gr range and load down 1gr at a time until shooting noiseless fully suppressed.

I have not tried them yet but he hunts hogs suppressed and subsonic and does know his stuff. He says not to try to use jacketed bullets subsonic. They don't work well.

Range is naturally going to be close. You might give "Cast Boolets" forum a try for more information. As soon as I can get my suppressor made I will try loading them to see how they work.

Joe


Hi Joe,

That sounds like a decent approach, 150 gr in the 6.5mm being quite heavy for calibre and hence good at penetration but when I tried cast bullets in my 308 they ricochet like a giant .22LR.

The problem I have is that anywhere where I need to be quiet I need a ricochet even less... Big Grin

Has your buddy tried cast hollowpoints?
 
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Posts: 1102 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 15 October 2001Reply With Quote
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Great posts man, thank you very much!

That looks like the sort of thing, a hollowpoint like a dustbin and no paper patch to bugger about with.

I take it that you mix gaschecked and lubed cast bullets and jacketed bullets without too much trouble?
 
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Lead adhere wery good to copper so if the barrel is badly fouled it will lead. On the other hand if the barrel is clean i have never had problems switching and then found lead in the bore.

Yeah that bullet is almost like shooting empty soup cans. The deepest HP i have ever seen on a bullet. That mould must be a nightmare to cast with and get complete fill out.
 
Posts: 1102 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 15 October 2001Reply With Quote
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If anyone is casting/making any of these in .308 rifle or larger pistol calibers .357, .428, .452, I'd sure like to buy a couple of hundred. PM me. Thanks CAT


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Gatogordo:
If anyone is casting/making any of these in .308 rifle or larger pistol calibers .357, .428, .452, I'd sure like to buy a couple of hundred. PM me. Thanks CAT


I am casting in 308 but I think the postage might kill you! Big Grin
 
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With Quote
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I would stick with the light-for-caliber .30" bullets and "weaken" them by drilling a deeper hollow point in the nose.

This would leave more unsupported gilding material at the nose and induce more violent expansion upon contact.

Bullet length would be unaffected, and the weight removed would be too negligible to be a factor with the barrel twist rate.

Have you tried the Speer 125gr. TNT?

As for polymer-tipped bullets, I find the Hornady SST bullets (.308/125gr.) to be softer (more violent expansion) than current production Nosler Ballistic Tips.

I don't know whether they are available in the UK.

George


 
Posts: 14623 | Location: San Antonio, TX | Registered: 22 May 2001Reply With Quote
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You might look at the CEB or Lehigh controlled fracture bullets.
 
Posts: 1049 | Location: oregon | Registered: 20 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by GeorgeS:
I would stick with the light-for-caliber .30" bullets and "weaken" them by drilling a deeper hollow point in the nose.

This would leave more unsupported gilding material at the nose and induce more violent expansion upon contact.

Bullet length would be unaffected, and the weight removed would be too negligible to be a factor with the barrel twist rate.

Have you tried the Speer 125gr. TNT?

As for polymer-tipped bullets, I find the Hornady SST bullets (.308/125gr.) to be softer (more violent expansion) than current production Nosler Ballistic Tips.

I don't know whether they are available in the UK.

George


I've tried various types of modified and unmodified jacketed bullets and none of them expand much at subsonic velocties.

the bigger problem is that drilling them concentrically enough to not destablise the bullet at the speeds they are rotating is almost impossible and accuracy goes to hell.

Even the soft ( too soft for full house 308 loads IMO) Sierra 125 with the nose drilled out to a depth of .3" is no good.
 
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Originally posted by eny:
You might look at the CEB or Lehigh controlled fracture bullets.


To heavy and leave an almost solid shank mate. Frowner
 
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With Quote
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The only other alternative that comes to mind is the Hornady HP/XTP made for the .32ACP (7.65 Browning).

It's very short, however, and I don't know whether your barrel will stabilize it. It's inexpensive enough to warrant a try.

See Hdy .30 90gr HP/XTP

Is this for muntjac and Chinese water deer or larger ungulates?

George


 
Posts: 14623 | Location: San Antonio, TX | Registered: 22 May 2001Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by GeorgeS:
The only other alternative that comes to mind is the Hornady HP/XTP made for the .32ACP (7.65 Browning).

It's very short, however, and I don't know whether your barrel will stabilize it. It's inexpensive enough to warrant a try.

See Hdy .30 90gr HP/XTP

Is this for muntjac and Chinese water deer or larger ungulates?

George


Sadly not, a minimum of 1000ft/lbs of muzzle energy are needed for small deer and so this would be for fox culling in senstive locations.

The rifle is a fully suppressed 308 ( i.e. full length supressor and drilled barrel, firing pin click is all it makes) and the problem is one of ricochet. In this particular location a head shot with a .22 is undesirable for various reasons and so I prefer a chest shot.

What I'm looking for is a bullet that does at subsonic velocity that approximates what a 55 grain ballistic tip in the 243 does at 4000 fps ( i.e. only fragments exit). A tall ask I know.

Anywhere were noise is of concern I submit that ricochet is of even more concern.

That bullet looks very interesting, how explosive is it?
 
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Originally posted by Ghubert:


.

4. That heavy bullets like the 240gr SMK popular in factory subsonic rounds like the 300 blackout ricochet like crazy and are frankly dangerous outside of a range or a war or something.

.

Any thoughts?


Could you elaborate please?

I have just purchased a bolt action 300 Blackout. I have equipped it with a suppressor. It is zeroed with subsonic ammo.

My ranch has an excess of hogs. My idea has been to head shoot as many as I can without creating too much of a disturbance.

I have fired off a few rounds at targets. I have yet to try it on hogs. I will do so in the next week or so.

Given your comments , what are your thoughts on my idea?
 
Posts: 11907 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
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I don't know if it would fit your needs, but a 220 gr Berry's plated bullet works fine for me out of a .300 Blackout. Not real bad about ricochet and will drop a good sized hog with a body shot pretty quickly (well under 100 yard shot).


Karl Evans

 
Posts: 2723 | Location: Emhouse, Tx | Registered: 03 February 2010Reply With Quote
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Having killed marmots with the 55gr. BT from a Ruger Number 1 .243 Win., I know what you are referring to. The load was devastating on tissue but the report was as loud as my .25-06, .270 Win., and .300 Weatherby rifles.

Suppressed supersonic rounds are still very quiet compared to unsuppressed rounds. The report of 110gr. Barnes TSX@1900fps is louder than 220gr. Remington Core-Lokts@1050fps, but not alarmingly so. The slap of the bullet against hide sounds louder to my ears than the report.

According to the standard foot-pounds formula, your bullet would have to weigh 410 grains to produce 1000-ft.-lbs at 1050fps. I doubt that such a bullet would stabilize in a 1-11" twist barrel. Get a moderator for your .416 Rigby instead. Big Grin

George


 
Posts: 14623 | Location: San Antonio, TX | Registered: 22 May 2001Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by larryshores:
quote:
Originally posted by Ghubert:


.

4. That heavy bullets like the 240gr SMK popular in factory subsonic rounds like the 300 blackout ricochet like crazy and are frankly dangerous outside of a range or a war or something.

.

Any thoughts?


Could you elaborate please?

I have just purchased a bolt action 300 Blackout. I have equipped it with a suppressor. It is zeroed with subsonic ammo.

My ranch has an excess of hogs. My idea has been to head shoot as many as I can without creating too much of a disturbance.

I have fired off a few rounds at targets. I have yet to try it on hogs. I will do so in the next week or so.

Given your comments , what are your thoughts on my idea?


Hi Larry,

It all depends on what you are trying to achieve and what exactly the local circumstances are.

All of my rifles (apart from a range queen Mauser 201 .22LR, K22s I think you guys call them on your side of the pond) are suppressed, mainly so I can hunt without hearing protection primarily and reducing noise disturbance perhaps secondarily as people rarely seem to be bothered by or even hears one shot. The exception to this high volume night shooting with rimfires of things like cotton tails where the sheer number of shots attracts interest and the round is fully moderated by dint of being subsonic anyway.


In terms of game disturbance the point is moot in my experience with even a subsonic .22 bullet making one hell of a thump when it hits the beast, this will disturb the group and sometimes confuses them less than the combination of a suppressed muzzle blast and crack of a supersonic bullet which echos about and can be hard for them to locate. This can work either way however, especially if you drop the lead sow of the sounder of pigs first and leave the rest milling.

This is a long winded way of saying that unless you are shooting within a few hundred yards of houses on flat terrain I wouldn't be particularly worried about using supersonic ammunition through a suppressed rifle in terms of disturbance. I say this as full house expanding ammunition is much more effective than subsonic stuff which tends to act like an FMJ in terminal performance and so if you can, I would say use the full velocity stuff even for head shooting.

The other problem with the heavy non-expanding jacketed stuff is that it prone to ricochet, the heavier, harder and pointier the bullet is the worse it tends to be. I would say that the 240 SMK at subsonic velocity is bouncier than the .22lr with 40grain RN ammo, so plan your backstop and angles accordingly.

I have joined the cast boolits forum and someone has very kindly offered to help me in getting a drawing of the Ness safety bullet which I am hoping will reduce this potential, I shall report back when I have the bits! Smiler
 
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by K Evans:
I don't know if it would fit your needs, but a 220 gr Berry's plated bullet works fine for me out of a .300 Blackout. Not real bad about ricochet and will drop a good sized hog with a body shot pretty quickly (well under 100 yard shot).


Are these soft lead swaged bullets?
 
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Having killed marmots with the 55gr. BT from a Ruger Number 1 .243 Win., I know what you are referring to. The load was devastating on tissue but the report was as loud as my .25-06, .270 Win., and .300 Weatherby rifles.

Suppressed supersonic rounds are still very quiet compared to unsuppressed rounds. The report of 110gr. Barnes TSX@1900fps is louder than 220gr. Remington Core-Lokts@1050fps, but not alarmingly so. The slap of the bullet against hide sounds louder to my ears than the report.

According to the standard foot-pounds formula, your bullet would have to weigh 410 grains to produce 1000-ft.-lbs at 1050fps. I doubt that such a bullet would stabilize in a 1-11" twist barrel. Get a moderator for your .416 Rigby instead. Big Grin

George


Agreed, you'd be amazed the places I have shot (perfectly legally and responsibly I may add) in and around urban areas and with a vareity of rimfire and centrefire rifles.

No one ever hears one shot! Cool Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

IT gets worse than that actually, the minimum energy level for fallow deer and up is 1700 ftlbs, well I suppose a 50 Beowulf would do if I could bring myself to own a AR... Big Grin
 
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Ghubert:
quote:
Originally posted by K Evans:
I don't know if it would fit your needs, but a 220 gr Berry's plated bullet works fine for me out of a .300 Blackout. Not real bad about ricochet and will drop a good sized hog with a body shot pretty quickly (well under 100 yard shot).


Are these soft lead swaged bullets?


Yes, these are plated swaged bullets. Accurate, too.


Karl Evans

 
Posts: 2723 | Location: Emhouse, Tx | Registered: 03 February 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by K Evans:
quote:
Originally posted by Ghubert:
quote:
Originally posted by K Evans:
I don't know if it would fit your needs, but a 220 gr Berry's plated bullet works fine for me out of a .300 Blackout. Not real bad about ricochet and will drop a good sized hog with a body shot pretty quickly (well under 100 yard shot).


Are these soft lead swaged bullets?


Yes, these are plated swaged bullets. Accurate, too.


Interesting as I think swayed bullets will be pretty much pure lead...

This means a HP might be pressed into them and they have the cohesiveness of gum in expansion...

Thank you Mr Evans!
 
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Look for the .308 caliber Hornady 190gr. Sub-X bullet release in 2018.

You still may not achieve 1000 ft.-lbs. at 1050fps, but it is designed to expand at that velocity and it should be less likely to ricochet than a 'tougher' bullet.

George


 
Posts: 14623 | Location: San Antonio, TX | Registered: 22 May 2001Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Look for the .308 caliber Hornady 190gr. Sub-X bullet release in 2018.

You still may not achieve 1000 ft.-lbs. at 1050fps, but it is designed to expand at that velocity and it should be less likely to ricochet than a 'tougher' bullet.

George


Sounds interesting but availabilty may be an issue over here. :/
 
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Pick some up when you visit your relatives.

George


 
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Pick some up when you visit your relatives.

George


Well, yes. Big Grin

Thanks. Big Grin
 
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With Quote
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I've been using a suppressed .308 for a couple years now on my property in TX. I haven't tried handloading .308 yet, so when I started shooting subsonic, the only thing I could find in stock was Lapua 200 grain FMJs. I've taken over 20 blackbuck and axis with these without losing an animal to date. Instead of trying to get a bullet that opens, I've been successful with a bullet designed to penetrate. Every one to date has passed through the animal, including some significant quartering shots. Blood trails are obvious, and most are found within 30 yards. Relatively cheap Remington 700 with 1:12 twist, 20" barrel and aftermarket laminated stock. Very accurate with the Lapua 200 grain FMJs, but all my shoots to date have been within 65 yards.


JEB Katy, TX

Already I was beginning to fall into the African way of thinking: That if
you properly respect what you are after, and shoot it cleanly and on
the animal's terrain, if you imprison in your mind all the wonder of the
day from sky to smell to breeze to flowers—then you have not merely
killed an animal. You have lent immortality to a beast you have killed
because you loved him and wanted him forever so that you could always
recapture the day - Robert Ruark

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Posts: 355 | Registered: 20 June 2012Reply With Quote
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I finally got to try my 150gr cast bullets in my 6.5 Creedmoor. They are blunt nose Moly lubed with a gas check. The moly lube allows the lead bullet to shoot clean with minimum lead deposit. I loaded down to 11gr. Trail Boss powder and got 1325fps. It sounds like a 22 suppressed. I stopped there as it works for my purpose. It drops fully 1MIL@100yds.

They work well on our feral hogs but the one I shot did not exit the animal. I am pretty sure they would ricochet. Hollow pointing them might work but the dilemma is any heavy projectile would have that tendency.
 
Posts: 1111 | Location: Blooming Grove, Tx. | Registered: 28 June 2012Reply With Quote
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Just shot a coyote at 25 yards with lehigh defense max expansion bullet. 300 BKO, 1100+ fps. entered just behind front shoulder, exit opposite side flank. big exit hole! Will report more when have results.
 
Posts: 1049 | Location: oregon | Registered: 20 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Old post. But you should at least look at Lehigh bullets. They make bullets specifically for YOUR purpose. Packy
 
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Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
Old post. But you should at least look at Lehigh bullets. They make bullets specifically for YOUR purpose. Packy


Apologies for the late response, I've tried some Lehigh bullets but found them... not right for want I want.

There is some nose fragmentation but then the solid shank exits, not ideal for my purposes.

They do kill better than solids though so there may be something in it.
 
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Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Pick some up when you visit your relatives.

George


I did but same above, no cigar.
 
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Using the nosler 220 ballistic tips this year. so far all drt/appropriate shot placement on coyotes. Not much expansion according to exit holes. Have yet to find something that does not occasionally ricochet on exit. Perhaps it is not possible to make a bullet that will completely fragment at subsonic velocities and still hold together being fired?
 
Posts: 1049 | Location: oregon | Registered: 20 February 2009Reply With Quote
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My "go to" bullet for subsonic hunting is the 220 grain Sierra RN fired from my 300 Blackout at 1070 fps. I haven't had a deer travel over 50 yards after being hit. On a good shoulder shot, the bullet will tumble doing considerable damage to the lungs and usually exit with an elongated exit hole.

If you're looking for expansion with subsonic ammo, try Makers bullets. They have wicked expansion at velocities well below 1000 fps.


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Posts: 103 | Location: Central Kentucky | Registered: 28 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Some things I no long want on any rifle I own:
1. a big ugly suppressor hanging on my barre.
2. subsonic bullets and loads
3. a shooting rest hanging off the end of my rifle stock
4. a scope larger than a Leupold 4X in size.
5. A red dot or battery operated sight of any kind
6. or any damn gimmick of any kind..including long range shooting that's become the rage.

However I don't care one iota what anyone else does as long as they are legal and even that depends on who they are I suppose!!


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41758 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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