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Why Winchester choose the .277"?
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do anyone know why Winchester decide to use a .277" bullet when a 7mm was easier?
I have the theory that Winchester do not want to copy the 7x64mm......
Thanks
Martin


Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina.
My doubles:
.577 Snider by W.Richards.
.58" ML by Pedersoli
 
Posts: 358 | Location: Bahia Blanca - Argentina | Registered: 14 March 2005Reply With Quote
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Martin

I think you've partially answered the question. We'll never know for sure but I believe that Winchester did not want to duplicate anything then being done in Europe. And there was a general disdain in the US toward the "millimeter" calibers.

It wasn't until 1955 and the adoption of the 243W and 244Rem that any "millimeter" bullet really caught on. Even then neither Winchester nor Remington would go all the way and call them 6mm. The original version of the 243 Winchester was called the 6mm Winchester but a last minute marketing decision changed the name. But, you'll notice that boxes of 243 Winchester ammunition were labeled "243 Winchester (6mm)" for a long time after 1955. When Remington finally realized the mistakes in the 244 they took the big leap and the 6mm Remington was the result.

Ray


Arizona Mountains
 
Posts: 1560 | Location: Arizona Mountains | Registered: 11 October 2004Reply With Quote
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Ray
I seem to recall that Winchester was contract loading ammo for the Chinese at that time, and that ammo also used a .277 bullet..........Humm, what to do with all the tooling used to produce .277 bullets, once the contract is done with.........
 
Posts: 2124 | Location: Whittemore, MI, USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Thanks Ray and Tailguner.

According with what I read China Government tried first the 7x57mm Mauser and then a 6,8x57mm around 1907. Finally decide to adopt the 8x57mm.
Tailguner,
RWS and Roth made ammo for the 6,8x57mm but could not find any info about Winchester. Would you please tell me where can I find it? Im working on an article on the .270 Win. and I would want to ad this info.

Thanks
Martin


Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina.
My doubles:
.577 Snider by W.Richards.
.58" ML by Pedersoli
 
Posts: 358 | Location: Bahia Blanca - Argentina | Registered: 14 March 2005Reply With Quote
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Martin
I'm basing my comment on things I remember (when my memory works) reading here and there, and can't point you toward a definative source (at the present time).

I was hoping that my comment would/will jog Ray's memory. Ray has forgotten more about the history of some cartridges than I've ever known.
 
Posts: 2124 | Location: Whittemore, MI, USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With Quote
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tailgunner

You are right about the "forgetting" part.Wink

Martin, I don't think I can add anything more than what you've already found out. Roth, FN, and DWM all loaded 6.8 ammunition for the so called "Chinese Mauser". Bullet diameters varied .276 in the FN, to .279" in the others. Case length also varied from 57 to 60mm but they were all basically the same otherwise.

I don't have any specific knowledge of where you might find information about Winchester loading ammunition. But if I had to guess, I'd say it was for the 6.8x57mm or 6.8x60mm Chinese Model 1907 and 1908. Probably a military contract. The others (FN and Roth)were basically hunting cartridges and I doubt if there would have been enough sales for Winchester to get involved.

But, I'm only guessing.

Ray


Arizona Mountains
 
Posts: 1560 | Location: Arizona Mountains | Registered: 11 October 2004Reply With Quote
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Ray, Tailgunner,
thanks for the info.!
It sounds good.

Thanks
Martin


Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina.
My doubles:
.577 Snider by W.Richards.
.58" ML by Pedersoli
 
Posts: 358 | Location: Bahia Blanca - Argentina | Registered: 14 March 2005Reply With Quote
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I actually suspect that it is merely as simple an error as someone wanted a 7mm and just got the conversion of the calibre to imperial measurements wrong! No more no less!

In a post-WWI world where the "British" called a 7x57 a .275" and in an America where 7.65mm and 9mm Browning were called .32" and .380" nothing would surprise me!

These theories about "Chinese" calibres are probably interesting but sometimes the truth is just simple mis-reading, mis-interpretation or mis-calculation.

Confusing bore diameter with land diameter or some such over re-calculating five and six groove barrel drawings.

Just like the infamous "Enfield Inch" http://www.rsaf-aa.co.uk/rsaf/heritage/rsaf_enfieldinch.html:

quote:
The introduction to RSAF, in 1856, of the new machines from America and the system of producing interchangeable components that were all identical was a step change in the concept of engineering manufacture in the UK. Since then components have been made by precision machines to very closely controlled dimensions specified on a drawing.

One effect of that change was the need for a precise reference standard of length. When components were being made to match physical patterns, there was no need for precision measurement against a defined standard. However, when all components had to be machined to precise dimensions and gauges had to be made to even higher standards of precision, availability of a high precision reference standard of length became absolutely indispensable, but no such standard existed to the necessary degree of accuracy. RSAF had therefore to acquire a suitable standard to support the new method of manufacturing and thus was born the Enfield Inch.

In America the same considerations forced the same solution, but unfortunately the standards adopted were not all precisely the same and this was to lead to some international friction, involving RSAF, between armaments factories and machinery manufacturers in various countries in later years, notably England, America, Australia and India. In Britain, the Enfield Inch became a de-facto national standard until it was superseded by the Imperial Standard Inch and later the British Standard inch, which is very slightly larger by about 0.0003. Several of the standard Enfield Inches were produced for manufacturing, inspection and reference purposes and one of these is now held by the Pattern Room as part of its collection.

The saga of the Enfield inch in relation to Australian rifle production involving American machines and gauges made to their, slightly different, standard inch has been researched and written up by Tony Griffiths in Australia in his small book The Enfield Inch & The Lithgow .303.


And, from another website, this:

quote:
Throughout history there have been many different inches. These have been different in actual length as well as different by definition. Among the most recent ones were the British inch, the Cape inch (South African), the Enfield inch the USA inch, and the Canadian inch that subsequently became the international inch that most people use these days. I think that the inch you are referring to is the Enfield inch that was used for the design and manufacture of British weapons – an Enfield inch was a little smaller than a 'standard' inch at that time; it was about 0.9997 British inches. As an example of its use consider the Enfield 303 rifle; its bore was measured as the decimal fraction, 0.303, of an Enfield inch.
 
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