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German made rifle chamber question
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I friend brought me a German rifle which was brought back when WW11 war ended. The action was very smooth and a very nice style of a pre war rifle hunting rifle with a German scope mounted very high. I couldn't find any name of the person or company which made this rifle. No markings of the caliber !!! Here is what I found was a barrel bore of .311 and I only had a 3006 case which would take .020 and close easy. I can't find any cartridge that will fit. A large bird type on the top of the receiver appears to be Polish made with German markings on the receiver.

I have been out of the business so long that I don't have the books needed to look up the type cartridge. Can anyone help
 
Posts: 965 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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8x64 maybe?

https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uplo...abical-en-page61.pdf

https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uplo...abical-en-page62.pdf

BUT:

Land diameter will not tell you for 100 %, if it is 8x64 or 8x64 S, main difference is groove diameter.

Jiri
 
Posts: 2067 | Location: Czech Republic | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Jiri,

I still have not been able to say what the cartridge will be for the rifle.

Here is what I know: bore dia. .311 , length of cartridge about .022 over size of the 3006 cartridge length. Could this be made as a wildcat cartridge before WW11? Polish bird covers the top of receiver without any year or date codes on receiver. It has the German stamps on the side of the receiver which appears to be after German took Poland. It appears to be a very good example of the German stock carving on the butt end behind the cheek area. Very good craftsman made this rifle, but why didn't he sign his work. No numbers, very smooth action, so I guess that this action was made for a sportmans hunting rifle. No sign of a military conversion action.

Thanks for your help and I will keep looking to solve this caliber for my friend.
 
Posts: 965 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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Hello Les, I'd be happy to help but will need at least pictures and preferably a chamber cast. Send me a PM and we'll see what I can do.
 
Posts: 964 | Location: paradise with an ocean view | Registered: 09 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Post pictures; it is probably 8x60; after WW1 Germans were not allowed to have 8x57.
If it is actually a Polish rifle, it will have the Polish Eagle crest, but also the Factory name, FB Radom, or Warsaw, and always the date.
A Polish eagle on the receiver with German proofs, can only be one thing; on the side it says, W (crossed through) G29/40, which is a converted Polish model 29. Once the Germans took over a factory, it did not use the original markings, but put codes on the top of the ring. I have all the markings in my head.
You have to post pictures. And yes a chamber cast will tell. Also look under the barrel and it will definitely have markings that tell the caliber, although sometimes they are a bit cryptic. As in they used the gauge instead of the caliber, early on.
 
Posts: 17045 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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I will try to get a few pictures and will ask if he would let me post these for all to view. This rifle has the Nazi's mark on the side of the receiver and that is all I can find.

The craftsman who made this rifle was a top makers from what I see. Why there are no other markings on the receiver or barrel is something that puzzles me. I have seen several of this type rifle in the past, but this one is different. The trigger guard plate is engraved steel and gold plated.
 
Posts: 965 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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If the owner won't let you post pictures then you will never ID it.
Those rifles like that were made by private gunsmiths; sometimes called guild rifles, or cigarette rifles. Because they could not get real, new, sporting rifles after WW1, or 2. Very common for them to have no markings on them, and to have all original markings removed.
If yours has Nazi proofs, then, obviously it was made right after WW2. (I read above that it had the Polish Eagle.)
I need to see the receiver markings, and markings under the barrel shank.
 
Posts: 17045 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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I believe this rifle is 8X64 and I will be making the headspace go gage to prove this chamber. I will make a final cast and then make the gage. The owner will let me do this and it will help him decide who gets the rifle. His grandson will need to know before he tries to fire a 3006 shell and have a blow up. This will make me feel better knowing that I have made the correct decision at no charge.

Thanks for all of your comments

Les Brooks
 
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No pictures? The caliber will be marked on the bottom of the barrel shank, (per German proof laws), and the markings you describe on the receiver will tell the original maker of the receiver.
 
Posts: 17045 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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I know that we would all like to see pics of this. I have come upon several guild guns in the past + it's always a pleasure to see the workmanship. Les, besides, the kid will never have a "blow up" shooting a 308 in a .311 bore. The other way around? You bet. Just lousy accuracy.


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 17357 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With Quote
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The people thought a 3006 was OK as it would chamber up with the bolt and extractor holding the case, but never had anyone check headspace.

An experience reloader would know how to load and shoot the rifle, but these folks don't know anything about safety shooting old rifles. DON'T SHOOT RIFLES WITH THE SHELL THAT FITS THE BEST.

My checking shows that the headspace with 3006 has .025+ excessive space in the chamber.

A RIFLE CAN BLOW UP WITH THIS MUCH HEADSPACE AS THE 3006 IS NOT THE WAY TO GO. I want to give the correct size and I believe to to be 8X64.

There is no markings on the barrel to give a hint of the caliber.
 
Posts: 965 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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Chamber cast will remove any doubt!


www.accuratereloading.com
Instagram : ganyana2000
 
Posts: 66751 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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LesBrooks:

https://www.cheaperthandirt.co...on/rifle-ammo/8x64s/

This obsolete ammo is on stock ;-)

BTW it is with SPCE bullet, those bullets are very soft and very mild on barrels.

Jiri
 
Posts: 2067 | Location: Czech Republic | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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The markings are UNDER the barrel. On the bottom. German proof law mandated them.
 
Posts: 17045 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
The markings are UNDER the barrel. On the bottom. German proof law mandated them.


Dpcd is right.

To be clear here:

you have to remove barrel/receiver from rifle stock to see it. It is not visible if rifle is not dismantled.

Jiri
 
Posts: 2067 | Location: Czech Republic | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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And those marks on the underside of the barrel will often not be of a form you can easily recognize. Depending on the proof date, it may only say something enlightening like: "172,28" plus, if you are lucky, a chamber length in millimeters.

172,28 is actually the gauge of the rifle's bore (not groove) before it was rifled, in the same sense as a 12 gauge for a shotgun. I use that particular number because it corresponds to .300" and is the mark usually seen on German 8mms. No, it doesn't make much sense, it's just what they did. This bizarre usage started with the 1868 British proof mark law and was adopted by Germany later.
 
Posts: 964 | Location: paradise with an ocean view | Registered: 09 April 2002Reply With Quote
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This marking is all I can find on the barrel. I will have the rifle back and look to see if I missed something.
 
Posts: 965 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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That actually does tell us something - the 'branch' or 'antler' is the mark of the Ulm, Germany proof house as used after 1952, and the 659 indicates that it was proofed in June of 1959. The somewhat faint mark is an eagle-over-N, one of the correct proof marks of that time for a smokeless powder rifle.
 
Posts: 964 | Location: paradise with an ocean view | Registered: 09 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by LesBrooks:
This marking is all I can find on the barrel. I will have the rifle back and look to see if I missed something.


Look under the barrel please. You have to REMOVE stock.
 
Posts: 2067 | Location: Czech Republic | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Jiri:


Look under the barrel please. You have to REMOVE stock.


Yes, yes, yes!
 
Posts: 964 | Location: paradise with an ocean view | Registered: 09 April 2002Reply With Quote
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I have the rifle and there isn't any markings other than the Ulm under the a barrel. Caliber ??? I did cast the chamber and it shows the groove as .300 dia. , Bore .311.

Here is the stock marked with RK at the bottom of the carving right end spot. Who is RK??

 
Posts: 965 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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Ulm would not have, and under German law, couldn't, proof a barrel without the caliber on it.
Often in cryptic form as Steve said.
I don't see the Polish eagle mentioned above. Looks like a typical guild/ cigarette/private gunsmith rifle made from an old 98 of some sort. .311 groove and .300 bore? And a case .020 longer than a 30-06?
Hard to say when the evidence comes one crumb at a time.
That simple carving and the scope base dovetailed into the ring are typical of the type. German hunters could not buy new rifles at that time so everyone was making them. From old 98s. Usually GEW 98s.
 
Posts: 17045 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Here is the bird crest

 
Posts: 965 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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Under the barrel with the only markings. No numbers

 
Posts: 965 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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This rifle is a puzzle to me because it is not completed with the laws of Germany. It could be a black market rifle made after the war and maybe a used barrel was installed.

This is the last I will post on the subject!!

Les Brooks
 
Posts: 965 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 May 2004Reply With Quote
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Well, you began by asking what it might be chambered for. You have shown us pictures of the barrel, the scope mount, the bird on top of the receiver, the carving on the stock, an Ulm proof mark, the Bohler Steel mark, and even provided bore and groove diameters which are within reason for a .30 caliber something. You say you have a chamber cast.

Where's the picture of the chamber cast? Or even a measurement or two of the chamber cast?

Given the mixed variety of features on this rifle, I agree with dpcd that this looks like a thrown-together 'custom' rifle and further I would guess (without any info from the chamber cast) that it is a badly chambered .30-'06.
 
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The Eagle crest was engraved by the gunsmith is is definitely not original to the receiver.
Thanks for posting the additional pictures.
 
Posts: 17045 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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