I have a strange 9mm sent to me by a friend. It has a wierd brass bullet profile, it looks like a
"stem" on a round block... My friend says it is a THV, and that is all he knows. The h/s is 88 9
SF. French man. I persume. Any ideas out there?

What you have is called a 9mm "Tres Haute Vitesse" , which translates to something like very high velocity . French is not my language at all!

Anyway the cartridge is one of a series made by Societe Francaise de Munitions of France - 1980's at a guess - for Law Enforcement purposes . The cartridge was required to conform to the Hague Convention on handgun ammo , produce a high rate of stopping power with great accuracy , attain a high perforation level , and eliminate to a major extent any danger to surrounding outside the target .

The cartridge style is loaded in several calibres - notably .32ACP , .38 Spl , .357 Magnum , 9mm parabellum , and .45 ACP.
Bullet weights vary from 25 grain in the 32ACP to 60 grain in the .45ACP. You 9mm load , depending on which style of projectile , would be most likely 43.2 grain. In an auto pistol velocity of 2034 fps are stated , in a submachinegun velocity of 2428 is attained . There are two projectile styles in the 9mm , one has a 5 ribbed body style with a rounded tapered nose ending in a small meplat , the other has a single ribbed body with a rounded shoulder and gentle rounded "neck" up to a nose that resembles a small mushroom with flat meplat .This is really hard to explain , I can supply photocopy of the whole info series if anyone wants it .

All the ball bullets are designed with a light weight which has an internal cavity combined with a concave ogive , and propelled at very high speed - hence Tres Haute Vitesse.

I know thats a whole lot of technical stuff but it is an interesting cartridge and not often seen outside of serious auto pistl collections.

Muzza, I would be interested in a copy of that information. I have several THVs in my collection, including a 5.56mm NATO!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

No worries , e-mail me at the little link thingy and send me your address . I can send a copy - its about eight pages - by snail mail , any one else interested as well . I would be interested in seeing the 5.56 version , hadnt realised they made rifle calibres as well .

Thankyou very much for the info! My bullet profile by the way, is of the single groove with "mushroomed" stem on top. Now I get to look for more variations and calibers!

I have several THVs in my collection, including a 5.56mm NATO!

Tony

Could you post a picture, please? Like muzza, I didn't know that they made a THV in a rifle calibre. (Maybe one picture of ALL your THVs.)

Thanks, the_captn

I have the 9mm with the mushroom style of bullet nose - same as thenders -, a 357 Mag with the other or first type of thin spire type bullet , and a .38 Spl with the same bullet. The .357 case has the headstamp " .357 MG THV SFM " whilst the .38 Spl has the h/s " .38 SPECIAL SFM ".
I would like to see a scan of the rifle calibre too .....

Checked the h/s on my 9mm Parabellum - 9mm THV SFM . Different to the original one on this thread. It also has $10 written on it from ten or more years ago , wouldnt like to guess its value today....

I have a photo of my THVs, including the 5.56mm (and also a 5.56mm APDS for fun) but how do I post it?

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

What is an APDS ????

Armour-piercing discarding-sabot. A military ammo in which a smaller-diameter AP bullet is contained within a sabot, or sleeve, which falls away at the muzzle. The advantage is that the total projectile weight is low, so muzzle velocity can be very high, but the narrow bullet can penetrate armour more easily.

First used in 1944 in the British 6 pdr and 17 pdr tank/anti-tank guns. Postwar, became the main AP tank gun ammo until replaced by the current APFSDS (fin-stabilised; basically, an arrow-type projectile).

It hasn't been much used in smaller calibres, but there is the .50 cal SLAP (saboted light armour penetrator) and one of the Scandinavian countries (Sweden or Norway, I can never remember) uses 7.62mm NATO ammo of this type in their sniper rifle (very short flight time and flat trajectory, and probably goes through body armour as if it doesn't exist).

There used to be a similar idea for commercial hunting, using .22 cal bullets in a variety of bigger cases; it was known as the Remington Accelerator, but I don't know if they are still around (I have a couple in my collection).

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

The US has a series of saboted rounds in 7.62 x 51 as well , Winchester produced a variety of loadings with several different sabot styles and colours during the 1980's. I have AP and tracer with h/s WCC 85 SLAP , and year date 90. The US also has a series of SLAP .50 cal , the Singaporeans have a most impressive .50 with a wicked tungsten projectile in both AP and AP/trace that they are still using in the field today. These are all quite seperate to the Multiball series that appear from time to time .

Yes, I have one of the US 7.62x51 saboted military rounds, but I don't believe that they were ever accepted for service.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

I have several different 7.62 X 51 SLAP rounds.... As far as I understand, they were used off the coast of Iraq at the start of the Gulf war to draw away Iraqi attention from the front lines where the tank battalions were starting to breech through. They were used along with .50 cal SLAPS too, all by US Navy Seals...... I also have a couple of the Remington accelerators and .50 cals in my collection. Also know of a guy who has a box full of the tungsten-carbide inserts, heavy little suckers!

For interest , the insert projectile for the Singaporean .50 SLAP is .314" in diameter , 1.631" overall and the taper is .910" long . The base of the tungsten projectile is slotted like a screw.
The Singaporean SLAP Tracer has the same profile and dimensions save for a hollow cavity in the base filled with trace compound , and a red tip of some .600" length . Unfortunately my Tracer projectile example is still locked in the sabot ( which is black plastic with six petals - 1.146" long ) and epoxied into the case mouth , which in turn has been snapped off the case body .The sabot for the two loadings differ in that the AP has a solid base and the Tracer has a base hole of approximately .25" for the trace to ignite through .Interesting stuff!

I have a tungsten-carbide insert for the US 50 SLAP. It measures .325" base diameter, 1.649" OAL., with .840" taper length. It has a .175" diameter hollow cavity running .665" deep. And it weighs 356.4 grains. The plane of base has two small flat spots on the edge running parralel to each other (like an inverted screw slot). Incidently... I heard tale of a gentelman from Nebraska, a few years back, that had a duffle bag full of the 7.62 X 51 SLAP rounds that he was trying to sell. The US govt. found out about him, raided his house, and carted him off to the "big-house". You're not supposed to own any ammo manufactured by the US after some such date in the 60's, (in quantity) anyway.

It just goes to show you how the people of the US are run over when they don't pay attention to their own Constitution and the 2nd amendment written into it....... Just a bunch of SHEEP!

There used to an issue about using .50 SLAP rounds in the Barrett rifles; IIRC the sabot got fouled up in the muzzle brake, but I don't know whether that one was resolved. I understand that the Barretts generally fire APHEI 'Multipurpose' ammo, as they are used more for anti-materiel purposes than sniping.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

If I remember right... Isn't the orange saboted .50 Cal. SLap An APHEI ? And the red Saboted .50 cal. is a tracer ?

Sparky, when GCA68 became fully implemented, in theory you couldn't even *own* US military ammo made after 1968 because it wasn't supposed to be released to the public. Therefore any in private hands 'had to have been stolen.' I've not seen anything where this has changed, but there sure is a lot of ammo around, often in quantity, which would fall into this category. Over the years, I've seen some more recent production which had the lot numbers obliberated on the boxes, probably in a half-assed effort to conceal the source, so someone is taking that seriously and / or knows they would be in trouble if it could be proven they did a midnight surplus arrangement. Although it's unlikely Big Brother would go after a collector with individual specimens, I wouldn't be surprised to see a reprise of this as part of an 'anti-terrorism' effort at some point in the future.

Sorry guys, no THV was ever produced by SFM in 5.56 mm , not even in prototype stage....

I dont belive the american military uses the SLAP round in 7.62 because it had a problem with the barrel of the M-60 not quite sure, but it was in the book Black Hawk Down somthing about the sabot caught in the barrel and ended with the round impacting the barrel as it left....