quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
First, realize that pyrodex is the MOST corrosive propellent ever made. Black powder is not actually overly corrosive; it was the caps that ruined all the guns.

If I feel the need to use a BP substitute I use 777. But nothing like the real thing.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
All this trouble I just use smokeless in my savage.

No fuss no mess.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
I also use Windex for the initial cleaning after shooting. After a few patches and a brush or two, I run a couple dry patches down the barrel and then try again with a half and half solution of Simple Green and water. I could probably just go with the Simple Green/water only, but the Windex is really good for getting the residue out first. Then just oil like any of my other guns.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


Those of you who use Windex to clean your muzzle loader...do you use the original formula that DOES contain ammonia or the new formula that is ammonia free?

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
I teach muzzleloading here in Delaware and this is a sheet I give all the students.

Let’s Talk Propellants by George Roof
When it comes to the propellants used in muzzleloaders, much of the information tends to be “what I heard” instead of what I know. This will be a lame attempt to provide you with factual information other than what “Bubba told me.” We will go by three categories but you are reminded that though the Savage Arms 10ML-II was made for shooting modern smokeless powder, it could and did operate with the conventional “primitive” and synthetic propellants. Therefore it is literally a “hybrid”. I'm not sure it's even marketed presently. Whatever you do, DO NOT USE CONVENTIONAL SMOKELESS POWDER IN ANY OTHER FIREARM.

Black Powder: This is the original propellant dating back to antiquity with the Chinese being credited with the first recipes. Made by combining fine ground charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate (saltpeter), it is a very fast burning powder (deflagrating), and whose burn rate is determined by the coarseness of the powder. Components were wheel ground and then passed through various sized screens. Powder was graded in “F” and “C” designators. The “F” stood for “fine” while the “C” was “coarse. Coarse powders were used in cannons and artillery, but for the sake of our discussions in muzzleloading firearms, we will talk about the “F grades.” Fg powder is used primarily in big bore shotguns and punt guns of the early part of the century. FFg is used for firearms down to the .50 caliber while FFFG is used primarily in flintlock rifles and calibers below .45. FFFFg powder is considered “flash powder” and is used mostly in the pans of flintlocks as ignition propellants or in very small caliber handguns and derringers. (If you're wondering, the "F" stands for "fine" and the "g" stands for "grade" or "ground". Obviously the more "F's" the finer the powder.)
Black powder is considered a “Class A” explosive and though usually stable, it remains a fickle propellant. Burn rates can vary between manufacturers; it can be ignited from percussion or static electricity as well as flammable sources. It must be stored separate to other powders and because of stringent requirements on dealers, is often hard to find. Fuel for the propellant is charcoal and sulfur while the saltpeter is an oxidizer. It is supremely inefficient as only about 50% of the mass is converted to propellant while the remainder either leaves the barrel as white smoke and unburned charcoal or it attaches to the interior of the barrel as a corrosive crud.

Pyrodex: This is where things become confusing. In order to “dumb down” users, the manufacturers advertised this as a “black powder substitute” and attempted to simplify its usage by keeping the language the same. Pyrodex is nothing like black powder. Contrary to some belief, it is actually more corrosive than black powder because of the sulfur content. It is measured in “volume” like black powder, but the grain size is larger and often 100 grains of black powder volume weighs around 60 grains. It is much more stable, making resale and storage easier. It is more difficult to ignite (which can be an advantage to commercial dealers, but makes the requirement for stronger and hotter ignition sources for firearms.) It cannot be used in flintlock firearms. It has no natural ingredients and is considered “smokeless powder” by USDOT. It is advertised as a “propellant”.

Triple Seven, Black Mag3, Clear Shot, Shockey Gold, etc.: If you thought the doublespeak was bad on Pyrodex, you ain’t seen nothing yet. All of these are modern synthetic propellants. They continue to imply substitution choices for black powder yet are chemically isolated. They contain neither sulfur nor charcoal (they use a sugar based carbon). They, too, are measured by volume but since they burn far hotter than black powder, it takes less for them to provide the same energy. Though they still only burn about 50% of their bulk, the “cleaner” advantage comes from less powder being used to attain the same energy. What residue that is left in your barrel is less corrosive only because of the amounts left and the fact that sulfur is absent.

Pyrodex and Triple Seven Pellets: Can you say “blind faith”. Rational people simply stick to the recipes quoted by the firearms manufacturer for these items. First of all, you must accept the fact that these pellets are as close to black powder as dogs are to cats. They are listed as “pelletized powder” but in reality are nothing more that solid propellant rocket fuel. They provide so much energy that few companies making them endorse ever using more than two pellets in a load. But we know how hunters are: magnum loads make better hunters and since the firearms makers encourage it, why not walk on the wild side. Velocities exceed their name brand loose powder kin and they far exceed that of black powder. Since they have no commonalities with these propellants, they are less corrosive because their increase burning rates and their low volume allow less residue to be left in the barrel. Because of the chemistry, the ignition sources must be hotter and the design of the propellant is used to aid that ignition. These two type pellets are hollow and ignite from inside the pellet. They use 410 shotgun primers as igniters as conventional caps simply don’t supply enough heat to ignite these pellets. (it must be noted that larger bore shotgun and rifle primers should NOT be used. They are much hotter and create a situation where the sugar base propellant is crystalized in the barrel and will form a "crud ring" that will need to be removed in order to insure ease of loading. This ring is easily removed by plugging the primer hole and filling the barrel with cheap windshield washer fluid. Let it set for about 20 minutes and then pour out and clean your barrel conventionally.)

This information is not given as an information source but rather a short primer as to the differences in the most common of muzzleloading propellants. There are many valuable information sources available on the Internet by simply typing your question into their site search engines.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
I teach muzzleloading here in Delaware and this is a sheet I give all the students.

Let’s Talk Propellants by George Roof
When it comes to the propellants used in muzzleloaders, much of the information tends to be “what I heard” instead of what I know. This will be a lame attempt to provide you with factual information other than what “Bubba told me.” We will go by three categories but you are reminded that though the Savage Arms 10ML-II was made for shooting modern smokeless powder, it could and did operate with the conventional “primitive” and synthetic propellants. Therefore it is literally a “hybrid”. I'm not sure it's even marketed presently. Whatever you do, DO NOT USE CONVENTIONAL SMOKELESS POWDER IN ANY OTHER FIREARM.

Black Powder: This is the original propellant dating back to antiquity with the Chinese being credited with the first recipes. Made by combining fine ground charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate (saltpeter), it is a very fast burning powder (deflagrating), and whose burn rate is determined by the coarseness of the powder. Components were wheel ground and then passed through various sized screens. Powder was graded in “F” and “C” designators. The “F” stood for “fine” while the “C” was “coarse. Coarse powders were used in cannons and artillery, but for the sake of our discussions in muzzleloading firearms, we will talk about the “F grades.” Fg powder is used primarily in big bore shotguns and punt guns of the early part of the century. FFg is used for firearms down to the .50 caliber while FFFG is used primarily in flintlock rifles and calibers below .45. FFFFg powder is considered “flash powder” and is used mostly in the pans of flintlocks as ignition propellants or in very small caliber handguns and derringers. (If you're wondering, the "F" stands for "fine" and the "g" stands for "grade" or "ground". Obviously the more "F's" the finer the powder.)
Black powder is considered a “Class A” explosive and though usually stable, it remains a fickle propellant. Burn rates can vary between manufacturers; it can be ignited from percussion or static electricity as well as flammable sources. It must be stored separate to other powders and because of stringent requirements on dealers, is often hard to find. Fuel for the propellant is charcoal and sulfur while the saltpeter is an oxidizer. It is supremely inefficient as only about 50% of the mass is converted to propellant while the remainder either leaves the barrel as white smoke and unburned charcoal or it attaches to the interior of the barrel as a corrosive crud.

Pyrodex: This is where things become confusing. In order to “dumb down” users, the manufacturers advertised this as a “black powder substitute” and attempted to simplify its usage by keeping the language the same. Pyrodex is nothing like black powder. Contrary to some belief, it is actually more corrosive than black powder because of the sulfur content. It is measured in “volume” like black powder, but the grain size is larger and often 100 grains of black powder volume weighs around 60 grains. It is much more stable, making resale and storage easier. It is more difficult to ignite (which can be an advantage to commercial dealers, but makes the requirement for stronger and hotter ignition sources for firearms.) It cannot be used in flintlock firearms. It has no natural ingredients and is considered “smokeless powder” by USDOT. It is advertised as a “propellant”.

Triple Seven, Black Mag3, Clear Shot, Shockey Gold, etc.: If you thought the doublespeak was bad on Pyrodex, you ain’t seen nothing yet. All of these are modern synthetic propellants. They continue to imply substitution choices for black powder yet are chemically isolated. They contain neither sulfur nor charcoal (they use a sugar based carbon). They, too, are measured by volume but since they burn far hotter than black powder, it takes less for them to provide the same energy. Though they still only burn about 50% of their bulk, the “cleaner” advantage comes from less powder being used to attain the same energy. What residue that is left in your barrel is less corrosive only because of the amounts left and the fact that sulfur is absent.

Pyrodex and Triple Seven Pellets: Can you say “blind faith”. Rational people simply stick to the recipes quoted by the firearms manufacturer for these items. First of all, you must accept the fact that these pellets are as close to black powder as dogs are to cats. They are listed as “pelletized powder” but in reality are nothing more that solid propellant rocket fuel. They provide so much energy that few companies making them endorse ever using more than two pellets in a load. But we know how hunters are: magnum loads make better hunters and since the firearms makers encourage it, why not walk on the wild side. Velocities exceed their name brand loose powder kin and they far exceed that of black powder. Since they have no commonalities with these propellants, they are less corrosive because their increase burning rates and their low volume allow less residue to be left in the barrel. Because of the chemistry, the ignition sources must be hotter and the design of the propellant is used to aid that ignition. These two type pellets are hollow and ignite from inside the pellet. They use 410 shotgun primers as igniters as conventional caps simply don’t supply enough heat to ignite these pellets. (it must be noted that larger bore shotgun and rifle primers should NOT be used. They are much hotter and create a situation where the sugar base propellant is crystalized in the barrel and will form a "crud ring" that will need to be removed in order to insure ease of loading. This ring is easily removed by plugging the primer hole and filling the barrel with cheap windshield washer fluid. Let it set for about 20 minutes and then pour out and clean your barrel conventionally.)

This information is not given as an information source but rather a short primer as to the differences in the most common of muzzleloading propellants. There are many valuable information sources available on the Internet by simply typing your question into their site search engines.