I bought a Johnson's Ultimate Muzzleloader from a buddy of mine . I have only shot it 4 times before muzzleloader opened. Long story . I was in a stand an hour before daylight . I knew a big buck was around.

Big boy shows up. It could not be any more perfect. I slipped the safety off. I squeezed the trigger. CLICK. I could not believe it. Big boy left.

I took the gun to the range. I changed the primed case. The gun fired immediately . I was shocked , puzzled and upset .

To make a long story short, I think the problem was caused by me. I carried the casing on my pocket . I think my sweating caused the condensation to cause the primed case to be a dud.

Lesson learned.

It has been a bad day.

Arrrggghh!! These weapons case me to loose sleep and go grey. They are so darn finicky. So sorry to hear your story. We all have probably been there before and probably will be again. I have been shooting a savage smokeless for soe time now, it has it's own set of issues. We are not allowed to use rifles on my ain hunting property, just mzldr and archery, so i am stuck with this thing from today thru early jan.
At least you knewwhere and when to be to get a shot at the fella

FWIW, I have been playing with the now discontinued Whites for about 15 years. They were engineered for loose powder and the #11 cap. I played with the CCI #11s for a couple of years, then it was suggested I go with the RWS 1075s.

I have never had a ftf since, and the Whites are as accurate as some of my centerfires.

They are still out there, but you have to look for them a bit. I wouldn't think twice about buying one; your ftf issues will be gone!

i think I need to elaborate on the severity of the moisture issues. I pulled my glasses out of my pocket, both lenses were covered with moisture such that I could not see through either lens. Humidity is extremely high. I never dreamed of this issue
.

The good news is that big boy is back . New have found another even bigger one as well. I am off to try the new one!

Larry, with all the time in the woods, how do you find time to work????

Larry, I also had a failure to fire this year with my Remington 700ML. It has the 209 conversion breech plug in it that uses 209 shotgun primers.
I have a special capper for putting them in place and I wear it on a cord around my neck, usually with the capper in my shirt pocket. I got a shot at a nice deer on the last day of my hunt at 15 yards, put it on the base of the neck and pulled the trigger. The gun made a funny thud noise but the primer didn't fire.
I have about put this one down to one of two problems, either old primers, possibly with a moisture problem, or it may be that the bolt handle was sightly raised causing drag on the bolt plunger. Either way, this is the first FTF that I have ever had with it and I have killed a lot of deer with it.
As an additional note, those RWS 1075's are the best and hottest caps I have ever found, much better than any of the others. Bob

My gun uses a primed pistol casing as the primer.

A baggie with a bit of rice in it reduces the moisture troubles.

I have two of the Remington 700 ML's. I just changed the stock spring in the bolt for 29 pound Wolfe springs. I had been having problems with temps well below zero. Not any longer, I can leave the rifle in the freezer for a week and it still fires.

Al

Larry, if you were hunting in Florida early season, that's entirely possible. I keep mine in plastic tube.

Gary

Let me comment and don't get mad. Only firing it 4 times before hunting with it was a mistake. It is unlikely that moisture was the problem with the primer; you can soak them in water and they will still fire; they are sealed. Water might have made your powder wet; what kind are you using? Muzzleloaders are not finicky; especially the in lines. Was the primer dented?
Was it a new primer? Strange things happen. But basically, the in lines with either shotgun primers or rifle primers should never fail to fire.

Are primers sealed?
I was always told (and have told others for 40 years) to not touch the compound side of a rifle primer because it can contaminate them.

These "ultimate" designs leave the compound side of the primer exposed so I think Larry's problem could be my future potential problem.

I have the Remington Ultimate and use rifle primers and moisture was one of my concerns. I'll keep mile in sealed plastic tubes until time to chamber the brass/primer combo.

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Let me comment and don't get mad. Only firing it 4 times before hunting with it was a mistake. It is unlikely that moisture was the problem with the primer; you can soak them in water and they will still fire; they are sealed. Water might have made your powder wet; what kind are you using? Muzzleloaders are not finicky; especially the in lines. Was the primer dented?
Was it a new primer? Strange things happen. But basically, the in lines with either shotgun primers or rifle primers should never fail to fire.

Sometimes life conspires against you. That was the case with me. I got home a day or 2 before the season as I was on safari. I have flown about 300,000 this year for business. There has been no time. In addition , the scope mounts broke and had to be replaced. This took what little time I had left.

I am 100% convinced it was moisture. I never thought about it until i pulled glasses out of my pocket. They were totally covered in moisture.

The gun fired no problem with a new casing. I have shot it a number of times since then. No problem at all.

won't happen with a flintlock. The little feather thru the touchhole keeps moisture out.

So, no one answered my question. Are rifle/pistol primers sealed?
I don't think they are and subsequently we have handing warnings and Larry's warning should be heeded.
What say ya'll?
Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
So, no one answered my question. Are rifle/pistol primers sealed?
I don't think they are and subsequently we have handing warnings and Larry's warning should be heeded.
What say ya'll?
Zeke

Put your primer in a glass of water wait 5-30 minutes take it out load and fire.
You will soon find out.

3 215Ms, 1 minute in a water glass. Click, click, click. All in the name of science.

All percussion and flint lock muzzle loaders fail from time to time, and for that matter any black powder gun is apt to fail. It was the time and the place, the infancy in the growth of firearms, so when we go back to the beginning we must expect the same problems that our forefathers had, and that's as it should be.. I have read history of mountain men and muzzle loader failure was fairly common, and got a few of the old boys et, and some got scalped or, at least in knife fights!...

I have had muzzle loading failures, and about everyone I have hunted with or competed against has had misfires..Humidity and black powder are enemies for sure, and primers for Percussion guns fail. flint locks are even worse it seems to me.

I do know that failure is more prominent in snow, rain, and icy condition and especially in humid wet weather in the Northern States, and I found it so in deep South Texas where it was warm and highly humid..but fewer problems in high dry areas like South West Texas, Southern New Mexico and Arizona..I found that leaving a load in the barrel overnight was a recipe for disaster in Idaho up around Yellowstone one year, as a 6 point royal slowly walked off with me snapping the trigger about 4 or 5 times, they later I pulled the trigger to rid the bore and bang!! Jeeeez! So I took up archery, but that's another tale of many clusters!

Amazing just how loud a misfire on game really is and how long it lasts too.

I can still hear my first one on a 6pt bull elk so close I couldn't tell what I was seeing in the scope and had to look up to make sure. K-4.

CLICK! That was fall of '60!!

Sorry Larry, it happens to all of us sooner or later. Go get 'im now! And lets see the pictures too.

George

Have seen primers stored out in damp buildings fail to fire so don'think whatever sealer they use helps. Not good to get them wet if you ask me.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
i think I need to elaborate on the severity of the moisture issues. I pulled my glasses out of my pocket, both lenses were covered with moisture such that I could not see through either lens. Humidity is extremely high. I never dreamed of this issue
.

The good news is that big boy is back . New have found another even bigger one as well. I am off to try the new one!

Now you know why the old real muzzleloader hunters used a possibles bag!

...................................................................

I had a similar experience with a M/L with percussion caps, after sighting it in I neglected to see if the spent cap fell off well not that I ever checked it before but it was stuck in the hammer, loaded it up put a new cap on the nipple and Mr. nice buck came about and you known what happened

If you are using rifle primers, it is very unlikely it was moisture; they are very well sealed that you can soak them and they will still fire.
That is an issue with those new fangled primer systems; if you were using a flintlock and black powder, that could not have happened.

All I know is that I changed primers. It shot no problem.

quote:

Originally posted by raamw:
I had a similar experience with a M/L with percussion caps, after sighting it in I neglected to see if the spent cap fell off well not that I ever checked it before but it was stuck in the hammer, loaded it up put a new cap on the nipple and Mr. nice buck came about and you known what happened

Ha ha , that brought back memories !
I did the exact same thing, but my deer just stood there and let me dig out the old cap .
Bad mistake on his part !

Looks like you will have the problem solved.

My mishap was a breech plug (my fault). I missed a 31" mule deer. Fortunately, I was able to return in the evening, after fixing the problem and take the buck. I was lucky!!

If it wasn't for the failures, hunting would lose its appeal, it would become boreing and just be killing...Careful what you wish for, it might come true...

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
FWIW, I have been playing with the now discontinued Whites for about 15 years. They were engineered for loose powder and the #11 cap. I played with the CCI #11s for a couple of years, then it was suggested I go with the RWS 1075s.

I have never had a ftf since, and the Whites are as accurate as some of my centerfires.

They are still out there, but you have to look for them a bit. I wouldn't think twice about buying one; your ftf issues will be gone!

I have to agree with your choice in rifles and primers. RWS seems to be a cut above. I have 2 White rifles and they are both tack drivers once I found a load.

Todays rifle primers are at least 99% fool proof if they are stored in a cool dry place..I have some primers that I use a month ago that were at least 50 years old. I loaded them up with 30-30 brass and they all fired 100%...BP caps probably tend to misfire I think..but I have not shot ML for many years..Just now trying to get back into it..damn its become complicated over the years..

Well since this thread started I bailed off full blown back into muzzling witht he purchase of a 58 cal Zouave Buffalo hunte carbine, and a Italian 58 Cal. Hawkin to go with my old 54 Lyman..

Its exciting and Im kinda like a kid in a candy store, its a new lease on life..If I get a misfire on a 6 point royal, so be it, Id rather eat a cow anyway.

I can't wait until next elk season, and Im thinking it'll take that long to wade through the chafe and get this smokey stuff figured out.