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FU Putin. You can hit AR with all the denial of service attacks you want, like Ukraine we won't cower to you. Slava Ukraini.

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posted
Why is Ukraine's border so important to goofy joe and mattress back harris?

Neither one of them care about our border.
 
Posts: 40071 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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While Edmund Hewitt is banned and Grsmpasez has gone onto his reward, I wonder if they'd be blaming president Trump for it?
 
Posts: 573 | Registered: 21 January 2006Reply With Quote
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When the USSR broke up Ukraine had a very substantial stockpile of Soviet nuclear weapons, 1/3 of the Soviet arsenal and production facilities, that the United States determined were not in our interest to have floating around. All Ukraine wanted in exchange for giving them up and joining the non-proliferation treaty was our guarantee of assistance if they were invaded by Russia. We gave our word.

I realize that doesn't mean shit to a Republican but it does to actual Americans.


"If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump
 
Posts: 6827 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 09 December 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
When the USSR broke up Ukraine had a very substantial stockpile of Soviet nuclear weapons, 1/3 of the Soviet arsenal and production facilities, that the United States determined were not in our interest to have floating around. All Ukraine wanted in exchange for giving them up and joining the non-proliferation treaty was our guarantee of assistance if they were invaded by Russia. We gave our word.

I realize that doesn't mean shit to a Republican but it does to actual Americans.


Apparently the Budapest Accord wasn't ratified, so how did we give our word and how did we break our word?

I've not seen an example of the ukraine demonstrating itself to be either responsible for a nuclear stockpile or sovereignty as a nation. What reason is there for the USA to insert itself into a Foreign Entanglement as Jefferson warned against?
 
Posts: 7433 | Location: Dillingham Alaska | Registered: 10 April 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott King:
quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
When the USSR broke up Ukraine had a very substantial stockpile of Soviet nuclear weapons, 1/3 of the Soviet arsenal and production facilities, that the United States determined were not in our interest to have floating around. All Ukraine wanted in exchange for giving them up and joining the non-proliferation treaty was our guarantee of assistance if they were invaded by Russia. We gave our word.

I realize that doesn't mean shit to a Republican but it does to actual Americans.


Apparently the Budapest Accord wasn't ratified, so how did we give our word and how did we break our word?

I've not seen an example of the ukraine demonstrating itself to be either responsible for a nuclear stockpile or sovereignty as a nation. What reason is there for the USA to insert itself into a Foreign Entanglement as Jefferson warned against?


Ukraine gave up those weapons in accordance with that Accord with the understanding that their borders would be respected by the signatories to it, including the United States. It wasn't a formal treaty requiring ratification but it was certainly a moral committment.


"If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump
 
Posts: 6827 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 09 December 2007Reply With Quote
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Yep, both us and Russia are in violation of the treaty, even if it has not been formally ratified, it was accepted and we took their nukes.

Mayhap we should return their nuclear weapons to Ukraine?

I think that would solve Ukraine's problems with bad neighbors- even without delivery systems. Of course, given Ukraine's past behavior of their government, that might not work out as well as we hope.

I think Edmond had a point. Don't have to send troops, just sell them some weaponry to deter further aggression.

Slow Joe is kind of doing that... the coward's way, by not getting too upset if our NATO allies violate our law and sell stuff we sold them to others (as I recall, when we sell arms we expect them to not be resold, its in the agreements...)

So the Dems are not being the party of law and order either.
 
Posts: 7849 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott King:
quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
When the USSR broke up Ukraine had a very substantial stockpile of Soviet nuclear weapons, 1/3 of the Soviet arsenal and production facilities, that the United States determined were not in our interest to have floating around. All Ukraine wanted in exchange for giving them up and joining the non-proliferation treaty was our guarantee of assistance if they were invaded by Russia. We gave our word.

I realize that doesn't mean shit to a Republican but it does to actual Americans.


Apparently the Budapest Accord wasn't ratified, so how did we give our word and how did we break our word?

I've not seen an example of the ukraine demonstrating itself to be either responsible for a nuclear stockpile or sovereignty as a nation. What reason is there for the USA to insert itself into a Foreign Entanglement as Jefferson warned against?


Ukraine gave up those weapons in accordance with that Accord with the understanding that their borders would be respected by the signatories to it, including the United States. It wasn't a formal treaty requiring ratification but it was certainly a moral committment.


So no legal treaty/ obligation, but a " moral commitment"

Super.

There was this other PF idiot named Tas that figgered the US otta be World Cop but it ain't around no more.

The ukraine ain't moral, the US certainly ain't interested in a 51st European/ Asian State so I think Vlad should bon appetit. tu2
 
Posts: 7433 | Location: Dillingham Alaska | Registered: 10 April 2006Reply With Quote
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This whole thing is about eastern provinces that are majority (90%+) native Russians who wants to be part of Russian Federation
Now there is the dilemma …
No different then former Yugoslavia being split up by EU into a ethnic enclaves/states and thus created whore house mess in Balkans

What was good for the goose is now not good for the gander…


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...

Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies...
Only fools hope to live forever
“ Hávamál”
 
Posts: 13376 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT or holed up in Lochsa | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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The EU was responsible for the break up of the former Yugoslavia ? So it wasn’t the Serb ambition to rule the whole place by screwing with the federal voting system?

Maybe you’d better let the history books know so they can rewrite what they have wrong.
 
Posts: 6367 | Location: Ban pre shredded cheese - make America grate again... | Registered: 29 October 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of ledvm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott King:
quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
When the USSR broke up Ukraine had a very substantial stockpile of Soviet nuclear weapons, 1/3 of the Soviet arsenal and production facilities, that the United States determined were not in our interest to have floating around. All Ukraine wanted in exchange for giving them up and joining the non-proliferation treaty was our guarantee of assistance if they were invaded by Russia. We gave our word.

I realize that doesn't mean shit to a Republican but it does to actual Americans.


Apparently the Budapest Accord wasn't ratified, so how did we give our word and how did we break our word?

I've not seen an example of the ukraine demonstrating itself to be either responsible for a nuclear stockpile or sovereignty as a nation. What reason is there for the USA to insert itself into a Foreign Entanglement as Jefferson warned against?


Ukraine gave up those weapons in accordance with that Accord with the understanding that their borders would be respected by the signatories to it, including the United States. It wasn't a formal treaty requiring ratification but it was certainly a moral committment.


The above signifies two things that the school of hard knocks has also taught me:
1) Never give up your guns.
2) If you don’t have it in writing…it didn’t happen.

They should have only given them up with entrance to NATO or a ratified treaty.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
Hunter/Conservationist

DSC Life Member
NRA Life Member
APHA Honorary Member

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans. – Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
 
Posts: 31264 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott King:
quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
When the USSR broke up Ukraine had a very substantial stockpile of Soviet nuclear weapons, 1/3 of the Soviet arsenal and production facilities, that the United States determined were not in our interest to have floating around. All Ukraine wanted in exchange for giving them up and joining the non-proliferation treaty was our guarantee of assistance if they were invaded by Russia. We gave our word.

I realize that doesn't mean shit to a Republican but it does to actual Americans.


Apparently the Budapest Accord wasn't ratified, so how did we give our word and how did we break our word?

I've not seen an example of the ukraine demonstrating itself to be either responsible for a nuclear stockpile or sovereignty as a nation. What reason is there for the USA to insert itself into a Foreign Entanglement as Jefferson warned against?


Ukraine gave up those weapons in accordance with that Accord with the understanding that their borders would be respected by the signatories to it, including the United States. It wasn't a formal treaty requiring ratification but it was certainly a moral committment.


The above signifies two things that the school of hard knocks has also taught me:
1) Never give up your guns.
2) If you don’t have it in writing…it didn’t happen.

They should have only given them up with entrance to NATO or a ratified treaty.


In reality, they didn't want them. Maintaining nukes and delivery systems is damned expensive and the ones they had, while making them the third-largest nuclear power, weren't really of any use to them. It was ICBMs targetted mostly at us with strategic warheads (in the megaton+ range). The only part of Russia they could realistically retarget them to was the Far East.

They didn't want them and we didn't want them out there so the agreement was obvious.

They should have traded them for a couple dozen tactical warheads, a good mix of tube artillery and short/medium range rockets, they'd still have Crimea.


"If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump
 
Posts: 6827 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 09 December 2007Reply With Quote
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Picture of boarkiller
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quote:
Originally posted by nute:
The EU was responsible for the break up of the former Yugoslavia ? So it wasn’t the Serb ambition to rule the whole place by screwing with the federal voting system?

Maybe you’d better let the history books know so they can rewrite what they have wrong.


Like I said , it’s complicated and western world has a hard time to understand Eastern Europe
And I’m not taking sides or arguing, it’s just what I hear over there from people
And history is what each side makes of it


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...

Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies...
Only fools hope to live forever
“ Hávamál”
 
Posts: 13376 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT or holed up in Lochsa | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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Picture of Scott King
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott King:
quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
When the USSR broke up Ukraine had a very substantial stockpile of Soviet nuclear weapons, 1/3 of the Soviet arsenal and production facilities, that the United States determined were not in our interest to have floating around. All Ukraine wanted in exchange for giving them up and joining the non-proliferation treaty was our guarantee of assistance if they were invaded by Russia. We gave our word.

I realize that doesn't mean shit to a Republican but it does to actual Americans.


Apparently the Budapest Accord wasn't ratified, so how did we give our word and how did we break our word?

I've not seen an example of the ukraine demonstrating itself to be either responsible for a nuclear stockpile or sovereignty as a nation. What reason is there for the USA to insert itself into a Foreign Entanglement as Jefferson warned against?


Ukraine gave up those weapons in accordance with that Accord with the understanding that their borders would be respected by the signatories to it, including the United States. It wasn't a formal treaty requiring ratification but it was certainly a moral committment.


The above signifies two things that the school of hard knocks has also taught me:
1) Never give up your guns.
2) If you don’t have it in writing…it didn’t happen.

They should have only given them up with entrance to NATO or a ratified treaty.


They didn't and shouldn't of had a choice!

Leaving the ukraine with a nuke stockpile is like leaving short bus hockey helmet six year olds with a duffle bag of grenades and a fifty cal water-cooled with a full belt!

No sweetie, that toy ain't for you. cuckoo

Remember, Chernobyl is in ukraine. That's how they handle nukes.
 
Posts: 7433 | Location: Dillingham Alaska | Registered: 10 April 2006Reply With Quote
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Ukraine is corrupt from kindergarden and up. Why US has an interest in Ukraine is apparently kept secret.


DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway
 
Posts: 2777 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 09 June 2005Reply With Quote
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Typical AR......lost the track......

Why should we protect the Ukrainian border when our president refuses to protect ours?
 
Posts: 40071 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jens poulsen:
Ukraine is corrupt from kindergarden and up. Why US has an interest in Ukraine is apparently kept secret.


Bingo


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...

Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies...
Only fools hope to live forever
“ Hávamál”
 
Posts: 13376 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT or holed up in Lochsa | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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Picture of boarkiller
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quote:
Originally posted by JTEX:
Typical AR......lost the track......

Why should we protect the Ukrainian border when our president refuses to protect ours?


Bingo


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...

Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies...
Only fools hope to live forever
“ Hávamál”
 
Posts: 13376 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT or holed up in Lochsa | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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A moral commitment! What a pile of crap.
We had a moral commitment to US citizens and allies in Afghanistan to get them out like we promised. The US gov fucked them over just fine.
 
Posts: 5091 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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It’s not a pile of crap- we did make the commitment, along with Russia.

Just because Biden failed once doesn’t mean we have to fail again.

Now, how we do it is a different matter.

Diplomacy, arming the Ukrainians, direct action, etc. are all choices.

I don’t think we are going to fling nukes over it (hope not) but we should keep our word.

And I don’t want our response being “let every Ukrainian who can get here into the country.”
 
Posts: 7849 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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Doc, it's not just our gov. It's governments in general. Morals last only as long as it's convenient for who it makes look good or bad.
Great moral commitment to the expats at the bay of pigs too, wasn't it?
I'm not saying we shouldn't do better.
It's that we don't.
 
Posts: 5091 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Yeah.....we send them arms......they sell the arms on the black market and deposit funds into their Swiss bank accounts.....that's how the Ukraine rolls......maybe a bit of payola to hunter biden...
 
Posts: 40071 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Real geopolitical thinkers here.

The abysmal ignorance of the loon is on full display. I suggest that you leave this site and to continue to gobble up the lies of Tucker Carlson.


The U.S., the world, needs a stable international community: One where the sovereignty of a country’s borders are recognized. An invasion by Russia violates that standard. And where does Russia stop after Ukraine? The Baltics? Poland?

Yes, Ukraine is corrupt, but that doesn’t give cause or the right to another country to violate its borders. If Russia can invade Ukraine with impunity, why can’t China invade Taiwan or the Philippines or Australia, for that matter?

You loons just don’t seem to understand the concept of the rule of law in our country or the rule of international law in the world. If people, and countries adhere to the principle of the rule of law it enhances the prospect for peace and prosperity.

I would have thought that you loons would have learned that this short-sighted bullshit of capitulating to a thug never works out in the long run. Neville Chamberlain learned that lesson real well.
 
Posts: 7756 | Location: Oregon  | Registered: 03 June 2018Reply With Quote
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So, SC, what do you suggest we do?

Obama's use of sanctions wasn't particularly effective.

Selling weapons to Ukraine probably will work, but when they show up in the pipeline for terrorism, what then?

Are you willing to get on the plane and put your life in the hands of our current leadership to fight Putin?

I think we need to do something, but its a question of what.

I also think our allies have a lot more skin in this than we do... yet they have not been meeting their required defense spending (with 3 exceptions- UK, France, and Poland...) that they agreed to.

Ukraine is not a NATO member.

Also, war is now a bit more dangerous than it was in 1937.

I don't think that Ukraine per se is in our immediate zone of national security, but the fundamental point of stopping wars of aggression from occurring as you pointed out is a point.
 
Posts: 7849 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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CRBUTLER, you pose a great question. And as suggested, the world is limited on what can be done. Economic sanctions will hurt the US and the rest of the world, too. Providing weapons will cause more pain to the Russians, but they wont change the ultimate outcome.

What it will signal the world is the US is willing to stand up to a divisive rogue. You can bet your ass, China, North Korea et al will watching the American response.

As an aside, Putin may b gambling the Trump gets elected in a couple of years
 
Posts: 7756 | Location: Oregon  | Registered: 03 June 2018Reply With Quote
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Then Putin is making a bad bet.

I fear that Biden is not a leader that will inspire any confidence in our allies... see Afghanistan.

The international community as a whole is not favoring Russia in their intervention in Ukraine, but Russia and China are using their votes in the UN to stop any action and many in the world are all for it because they think we are too big for our britches and like seeing us look ineffectual.
 
Posts: 7849 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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I would call Putin’s bluff a little, and have NATO vote on adding Ukraine.

I would also sanction that pipeline the Dems filibustered. Only by cutting if his and his cronies oil money can you cause him to rethink.

Like most international problems, we ignored Putin and let him become a problem that he is now. There is no quick fix.

I would send arms to Ukraine. May not change the outcome, but may make Russia Bleed more for it.

China and Russia really are not allies. There may be an avenue here to bring China in to blunt Russia.
 
Posts: 5620 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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Picture of nute
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by boarkiller:
quote:
Originally posted by nute:
The EU was responsible for the break up of the former Yugoslavia ? So it wasn’t the Serb ambition to rule the whole place by screwing with the federal voting system?

Maybe you’d better let the history books know so they can rewrite what they have wrong.


Like I said , it’s complicated and western world has a hard time to understand Eastern Europe
And I’m not taking sides or arguing, it’s just what I hear over there from people
And history is what each side makes of it


It’s not any more complicated than other balkans messes in the past. The EU had nothing to do with it. It was political manipulation of the federal system by Serbia which was the initial spark and any one who tells you it was the EU is a deluded conspiracy theorist.

The EU was pathetic in their response trying to stop it, and we should all be grateful to the US for their eventual intervention.
 
Posts: 6367 | Location: Ban pre shredded cheese - make America grate again... | Registered: 29 October 2005Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Real geopolitical thinkers here.

The abysmal ignorance of the loon is on full display. I suggest that you leave this site and to continue to gobble up the lies of Tucker Carlson.


The U.S., the world, needs a stable international community: One where the sovereignty of a country’s borders are recognized. An invasion by Russia violates that standard. And where does Russia stop after Ukraine? The Baltics? Poland?

Yes, Ukraine is corrupt, but that doesn’t give cause or the right to another country to violate its borders. If Russia can invade Ukraine with impunity, why can’t China invade Taiwan or the Philippines or Australia, for that matter?

You loons just don’t seem to understand the concept of the rule of law in our country or the rule of international law in the world. If people, and countries adhere to the principle of the rule of law it enhances the prospect for peace and prosperity.

I would have thought that you loons would have learned that this short-sighted bullshit of capitulating to a thug never works out in the long run. Neville Chamberlain learned that lesson real well.



Bit you don't worry about our southern border and that invasion????
 
Posts: 40071 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JTEX:
quote:
Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Real geopolitical thinkers here.

The abysmal ignorance of the loon is on full display. I suggest that you leave this site and to continue to gobble up the lies of Tucker Carlson.


The U.S., the world, needs a stable international community: One where the sovereignty of a country’s borders are recognized. An invasion by Russia violates that standard. And where does Russia stop after Ukraine? The Baltics? Poland?

Yes, Ukraine is corrupt, but that doesn’t give cause or the right to another country to violate its borders. If Russia can invade Ukraine with impunity, why can’t China invade Taiwan or the Philippines or Australia, for that matter?

You loons just don’t seem to understand the concept of the rule of law in our country or the rule of international law in the world. If people, and countries adhere to the principle of the rule of law it enhances the prospect for peace and prosperity.

I would have thought that you loons would have learned that this short-sighted bullshit of capitulating to a thug never works out in the long run. Neville Chamberlain learned that lesson real well.



Bit you don't worry about our southern border and that invasion????


Trump built 9 miles of wall....get real. All he really did is rip babies away from mothers and set up concentration camps.

You can try to rewrite history, but the truth is there.


Trump: "Putin is a Genius"




 
Posts: 16775 | Location: FL | Registered: 03 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Jtex, you need to come out of the wilderness and educate yourself about immigration. Shake your head twice, take both hands and slap the side of your head rather hard three times, take four deep breaths and read on.

“THROUGHOUT 2021, Republican politicians and conservative pundits hammered the Biden administration over what they claimed was a crisis of uncontrolled immigration.

Images of migrants seeking to cross the border from Mexico in the early months of the new administration, which played in a seemingly endless loop on cable news, led to growing acceptance on the right of the “great replacement” conspiracy theory, claiming that President Joe Biden was throwing open the nation’s borders to nonwhite immigrants who would steal white Americans’ jobs — and vote for Democrats. The Anti-Defamation League called for Fox News to fire pundit Tucker Carlson last year because he espoused the “great replacement” theory so aggressively and so often, but the racist trope has now become normalized within the Republican Party.

Even the mainstream press bought into the idea that there was a massive surge in illegal immigration and that Biden was mishandling the issue.


But rarely has such a long-running and widely accepted political and media narrative been so at odds with reality. In fact, immigration into the United States in 2021 plunged as a result of both a decline in international travel brought on by the Covid-19 pandemic and restrictive U.S. immigration policies, according to new report from the Census Bureau. The nation’s political and media classes were seemingly so obsessed over the images of migrants at the border that they failed to grasp the truth, which was that immigration levels collapsed in 2021.

The startling Census Bureau report found that net international migration into the United States increased by just 247,000 people in 2021, the lowest annual level for any year since at least 2010. That’s about half the number of people who came into the country between 2019 and 2020, during the Trump administration, when net international migration totaled 477,000. The 2021 figure was also far below the 1,049,000 who came into the U.S. between 2015 and 2016, the highest level for any year in that decade.

In 2021, the global movement of people was drastically cut by travel restrictions put in place by governments around the world as a result of the pandemic. Land borders between the United States, Mexico, and Canada were closed to nonessential travel for part of the year, along with many U.S. embassies and consulates abroad, where foreigners get visas to come here.

“The Covid-19 pandemic significantly impacted international migration patterns both to and from the United States,” according to the report, which is one of the government’s first studies of 2021 immigration levels.

The Census Bureau’s findings are based on a comprehensive annual survey of more than 3 million households in the United States. To determine immigration levels, the bureau’s American Community Survey asks where each person surveyed was living one year ago. Those who are foreign-born were also asked what year they came to live in the United States.

A Census Bureau analyst said in an interview that the annual survey is designed to detect changes in the levels of both documented and undocumented immigration. In order to get more responses to the survey among undocumented immigrants, the bureau does not ask whether each person is in the country legally. “We make the assumption that the American Community Survey is picking up the undocumented,” said the Census Bureau analyst, who asked not to be identified so he could speak freely.

To improve the survey’s accuracy, the bureau supplemented its results with data from other agencies, including the Department of Homeland Security, the State Department, the Justice Department, and the Department of Transportation. (The pandemic also impacted the Census Bureau’s ability to collect data, especially in 2020, so it relied heavily on adjusted 2019 data to compare against 2021.)

THE CENSUS BUREAU’S report on immigration levels in 2021 was issued in late December, but it has received little media attention. That may be because the dramatic reduction in immigration in 2021 that it found is in sharp contrast to the narrative created early last year by conservative politicians and the press that immigration was out of control.

The media fixation on an immigration “crisis” began right after Biden took office, just at the moment when journalists were eager to prove that they could be tough on the new Democratic president after four years of Donald Trump. Questions about the immigration dominated Biden’s first formal press conference in March.

“The situation at our southern border provides a perfect platform for [journalists] to show their even-handedness,” Heather Digby Parton wrote in Salon last March. “Unfortunately, as with most such media moments, it’s not even-handed in the least.”

In fact, a Pew Research Center study found that a supposed immigration “crisis” was one of the most heavily covered issues by the press in the early days of the Biden administration. The Pew study, released last May, found that immigration was one of the five topics most covered by 25 major news outlets in the first 60 days of the Biden administration, accounting for 11 percent of all stories. It was also the issue that generated the most negative coverage of the administration of any of the top five issues covered, Pew found. About half the stories about the Biden administration’s handling of immigration were negative, compared with just 15 percent that were positive. Pew also conducted a related survey to see how Americans’ media intake influenced how much they heard about the Biden administration’s immigration policy. The survey found that 30 percent of all U.S. adults said they had heard a lot about the administration’s immigration policies, while 45 percent of those who only got their political news from right-wing media said they had heard a lot about it.

About half the stories about the Biden administration’s handling of immigration were negative, compared with just 15 percent that were positive.
In addition to the images of migrants on cable news, the skewed and ill-informed public debate on immigration in 2021 was stoked by a focus on misleading data. The key figure consistently cited by politicians and the media last year was the number of apprehensions along the southwestern border. That figure hit 1.7 million in fiscal year 2021, the highest level in 60 years, according to U.S. Customs and Border Protection, which is part of the Department of Homeland Security. That surge in border apprehensions became the key talking point for critics who argued that the Biden administration had lost control over immigration.

But the data on border apprehensions only showed how many times migrants were stopped when they tried to get into the United States. A Homeland Security official said in an interview that the numbers are misleading because one migrant may try to cross the border several times and thus would show up repeatedly in the total figures, inflating the numbers.

Ironically, one factor making it possible for migrants to keep trying to cross so many times is the government’s use of a pandemic-related border restriction that was first put in place by the Trump administration and has continued under Biden. Citing Covid-19, the government has used a public health statute, known as Title 42, to carry out expulsions of migrants at the border without offering them the chance to request asylum. Title 42 expulsions happen so fast that migrants can try to cross again almost immediately.

The data on apprehensions also doesn’t show how many migrants actually got into the United States and were allowed to stay.

There is no current data on how many migrants who were apprehended trying to cross the border in 2021 have been allowed to permanently stay in the United States, the Homeland Security official said. But the official pointed to the department’s “enforcement lifecycle reports” from earlier years, which show that most migrants crossing the border are eventually sent home. A 2020 Homeland Security report found that of 3.5 million “encounters” on the southwestern border between 2014 and 2019, 51 percent of the migrants had already been repatriated, while only 8.1 percent, or 284,000, from that five-year period had been granted relief or other protection from removal.

The obsession over the border apprehension data led politicians and journalists to completely miss the fact that overall immigration cratered during Biden’s first year in office.

U.S. Job Openings Near Record As Vacancies Rise To 11 MillionA “Now Hiring” sign outside a gas station amid record job openings in the U.S. is seen in Seymour, Ind., on Dec. 6, 2021. Photo: Luke Sharrett/Bloomberg via Getty Images
LAST YEAR’S PLUNGING immigration levels came at the same time as declining birth rates and rising mortality rates in the U.S.

The combination of low levels of immigration, a low birth rate, and a higher mortality rate — trends worsened by the pandemic — resulted in the slowest population growth for the United States in any year since the founding of the nation, the Census Bureau found in another new study. The U.S. population grew by only 0.1 percent in 2021, the lowest rate the Census Bureau has ever recorded. It was the first time since 1937, in the midst of the Great Depression, that America’s population grew by less than 1 million, the Census Bureau found.

Sharply reduced immigration and low overall population growth come at the same time as a major labor shortage in the United States. The onset of the pandemic initially led to enormous job losses in 2020 as many businesses went into lockdown. A devastating recession was avoided, however, thanks to the government’s stimulus packages and the Federal Reserve’s easy monetary policy. The government’s aggressive fiscal and monetary pump-priming helped bring about a quick economic recovery and soaring demand for labor in 2021.

The combination of more job openings and fewer workers has forced companies to offer higher wages. Yet the labor shortage has persisted.
But in what has been nicknamed the “Great Resignation,” many people have not returned to the workforce. In an analysis of economic data, the Washington Post reported last month that 3.5 million fewer people are now employed than two years ago, but only about half of them are currently looking for a job. Many are older workers who decided during the pandemic to take early retirement.

The combination of more job openings and fewer workers has forced companies to offer higher wages. Yet the labor shortage has persisted, leading to worsening supply chain problems and higher prices.

Low immigration is making the labor shortage worse. There are now about 2 million fewer immigrants of working age than would have been expected before 2020, according to Giovanni Peri and Reem Zaiour, economists at the University of California, Davis. In an article published this month, they estimated that nearly 1 million of those “lost” immigrants would have been college-educated.

The steep drop in “immigrant and nonimmigrant visa arrivals resulted in zero growth in working-age foreign-born people in the United States,” they wrote.

2022 may finally bring stability. In late 2021, there were some signs, particularly in government data about visa applications and international flights, that immigration levels were bouncing back from the stark lows earlier in the year. “In the publicly available visa data that we have been monitoring in recent months, we’ve seen immigration levels higher,” the Census Bureau analyst said. “We’ve seen visa data start to return to pre-pandemic levels, and airline international passenger counts are returning to pre-pandemic levels.” Whether the ongoing omicron variant wave of the Covid-19 pandemic will once again lead to a plunge in immigration is yet to be determined.

But the toxic, anti-immigrant political climate in the United States — underscored by right-wing conspiracy theories like the “great replacement” — will make it exceedingly difficult to significantly increase immigration levels in order to ease labor shortages. Today conservatives loudly complain about inflation and supply chain woes, but their xenophobic fears seem to blind them to the economic and social dangers that can arise from chronically low levels of immigration.

In fact, the nationalist, anti-immigrant policies of the Republican Party are now dividing it from many of its traditional corporate supporters. To address the labor shortage, supply chain problems, and rising prices, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce — long a GOP stalwart — called earlier this month for a doubling of legal immigration. The fight over immigration could soon become a proxy for a broader war between the new, nationalist base of the Republican Party and its more traditional supporters in the business community.“
 
Posts: 7756 | Location: Oregon  | Registered: 03 June 2018Reply With Quote
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How many coming across the southern border are doctors, teachers, or any of the tech industries.
We need to let in more then just day laborers.
 
Posts: 5091 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of boarkiller
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quote:
Originally posted by nute:
quote:
Originally posted by boarkiller:
quote:
Originally posted by nute:
The EU was responsible for the break up of the former Yugoslavia ? So it wasn’t the Serb ambition to rule the whole place by screwing with the federal voting system?

Maybe you’d better let the history books know so they can rewrite what they have wrong.


Like I said , it’s complicated and western world has a hard time to understand Eastern Europe
And I’m not taking sides or arguing, it’s just what I hear over there from people
And history is what each side makes of it


It’s not any more complicated than other balkans messes in the past. The EU had nothing to do with it. It was political manipulation of the federal system by Serbia which was the initial spark and any one who tells you it was the EU is a deluded conspiracy theorist.

The EU was pathetic in their response trying to stop it, and we should all be grateful to the US for their eventual intervention.


We differ and that’s OK


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...

Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies...
Only fools hope to live forever
“ Hávamál”
 
Posts: 13376 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT or holed up in Lochsa | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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Russia can not effort a war. Their GNP is less than Italy and if international sanction are imposed , Russia will be implode lacking everything from foods, medicine etc. The West could starve them to death and create a civilwar where they start eating they own dead in the bitter end.


DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway
 
Posts: 2777 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 09 June 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Scott King
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jens poulsen:
Russia can not effort a war. Their GNP is less than Italy and if international sanction are imposed , Russia will be implode lacking everything from foods, medicine etc. The West could starve them to death and create a civilwar where they start eating they own dead in the bitter end.


Oh that's not true Jens, we have it from the drunks and freaks on the PF that Russia remains this mysterious, evil boogie man whose reach and muscle is so ominous that it demands Uncle Sam go fly off around the globe stubbing his toes while trying to stomp out pathetic shadows.
Pure idiocy. cuckoo
 
Posts: 7433 | Location: Dillingham Alaska | Registered: 10 April 2006Reply With Quote
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I doubt Russia is as weak as you imply.

While economic isolation would certainly hurt them, they have natural resources, technology, a reasonably well educated populace, and nuclear weapons which will stop invasion.

I will grant that their government is rather questionable. They lost a bunch of the country (the former Soviet republics) and have a leadership that is promising a return to their former place in world power without getting the underlying economy in place first.

If we of the west don’t watch it, they could be driven into becoming a client state of China.

Unfortunately, every thing I can think of re Russia has its own worrisome consequence.

I’d prefer that Russians decide what they want and get rid of Mr. Putin, but it is their choice.

I’d rather that we let those most concerned of our allies take the lead here. I’m sick of them demanding we “do” something about Putin, and then refuse to back our decisions. Let Macron and Merkel put some capital up, and then we can see if we agree.
 
Posts: 7849 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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It does matter to King because can’t see Russia from house. What threat could it present to him?
 
Posts: 7756 | Location: Oregon  | Registered: 03 June 2018Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Schrodinger:
It does matter to King because can’t see Russia from house. What threat could it present to him?


I like your style S.

They don't present a threat, Jens is correct.

For failed states like the ukraine, you and I don't have anymore good answers than we did for Afghanistan or Somalia.

Doc Butler is correct, this is a problem for Merkel and Macron.
 
Posts: 7433 | Location: Dillingham Alaska | Registered: 10 April 2006Reply With Quote
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Merkel had retired and left the Chancellorship.

Russia is our problem. I do agree any solutions must have the commitment of our Western Allies.

Russia, through oil supply, has a lot of leverage on Europe. Austria gets most of its natural gas from Putin. Austria’s oil mostly cons Kazakhstan in Russia sphere of influence.

Germany largely imports oil. The lead supplier of German Oil-Russia. Likewise, Russia is a supplier of natural gas to Germany. Germany is the world’s largest importer of natural gas.

You have to cut into the oil money to change Putin’s course.
 
Posts: 5620 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Jtex, you need to come out of the wilderness and educate yourself about immigration. Shake your head twice, take both hands and slap the side of your head rather hard three times, take four deep breaths and read on.

“THROUGHOUT 2021, Republican politicians and conservative pundits hammered the Biden administration over what they claimed was a crisis of uncontrolled immigration.

Images of migrants seeking to cross the border from Mexico in the early months of the new administration, which played in a seemingly endless loop on cable news, led to growing acceptance on the right of the “great replacement” conspiracy theory, claiming that President Joe Biden was throwing open the nation’s borders to nonwhite immigrants who would steal white Americans’ jobs — and vote for Democrats. The Anti-Defamation League called for Fox News to fire pundit Tucker Carlson last year because he espoused the “great replacement” theory so aggressively and so often, but the racist trope has now become normalized within the Republican Party.

Even the mainstream press bought into the idea that there was a massive surge in illegal immigration and that Biden was mishandling the issue.


But rarely has such a long-running and widely accepted political and media narrative been so at odds with reality. In fact, immigration into the United States in 2021 plunged as a result of both a decline in international travel brought on by the Covid-19 pandemic and restrictive U.S. immigration policies, according to new report from the Census Bureau. The nation’s political and media classes were seemingly so obsessed over the images of migrants at the border that they failed to grasp the truth, which was that immigration levels collapsed in 2021.

The startling Census Bureau report found that net international migration into the United States increased by just 247,000 people in 2021, the lowest annual level for any year since at least 2010. That’s about half the number of people who came into the country between 2019 and 2020, during the Trump administration, when net international migration totaled 477,000. The 2021 figure was also far below the 1,049,000 who came into the U.S. between 2015 and 2016, the highest level for any year in that decade.

In 2021, the global movement of people was drastically cut by travel restrictions put in place by governments around the world as a result of the pandemic. Land borders between the United States, Mexico, and Canada were closed to nonessential travel for part of the year, along with many U.S. embassies and consulates abroad, where foreigners get visas to come here.

“The Covid-19 pandemic significantly impacted international migration patterns both to and from the United States,” according to the report, which is one of the government’s first studies of 2021 immigration levels.

The Census Bureau’s findings are based on a comprehensive annual survey of more than 3 million households in the United States. To determine immigration levels, the bureau’s American Community Survey asks where each person surveyed was living one year ago. Those who are foreign-born were also asked what year they came to live in the United States.

A Census Bureau analyst said in an interview that the annual survey is designed to detect changes in the levels of both documented and undocumented immigration. In order to get more responses to the survey among undocumented immigrants, the bureau does not ask whether each person is in the country legally. “We make the assumption that the American Community Survey is picking up the undocumented,” said the Census Bureau analyst, who asked not to be identified so he could speak freely.

To improve the survey’s accuracy, the bureau supplemented its results with data from other agencies, including the Department of Homeland Security, the State Department, the Justice Department, and the Department of Transportation. (The pandemic also impacted the Census Bureau’s ability to collect data, especially in 2020, so it relied heavily on adjusted 2019 data to compare against 2021.)

THE CENSUS BUREAU’S report on immigration levels in 2021 was issued in late December, but it has received little media attention. That may be because the dramatic reduction in immigration in 2021 that it found is in sharp contrast to the narrative created early last year by conservative politicians and the press that immigration was out of control.

The media fixation on an immigration “crisis” began right after Biden took office, just at the moment when journalists were eager to prove that they could be tough on the new Democratic president after four years of Donald Trump. Questions about the immigration dominated Biden’s first formal press conference in March.

“The situation at our southern border provides a perfect platform for [journalists] to show their even-handedness,” Heather Digby Parton wrote in Salon last March. “Unfortunately, as with most such media moments, it’s not even-handed in the least.”

In fact, a Pew Research Center study found that a supposed immigration “crisis” was one of the most heavily covered issues by the press in the early days of the Biden administration. The Pew study, released last May, found that immigration was one of the five topics most covered by 25 major news outlets in the first 60 days of the Biden administration, accounting for 11 percent of all stories. It was also the issue that generated the most negative coverage of the administration of any of the top five issues covered, Pew found. About half the stories about the Biden administration’s handling of immigration were negative, compared with just 15 percent that were positive. Pew also conducted a related survey to see how Americans’ media intake influenced how much they heard about the Biden administration’s immigration policy. The survey found that 30 percent of all U.S. adults said they had heard a lot about the administration’s immigration policies, while 45 percent of those who only got their political news from right-wing media said they had heard a lot about it.

About half the stories about the Biden administration’s handling of immigration were negative, compared with just 15 percent that were positive.
In addition to the images of migrants on cable news, the skewed and ill-informed public debate on immigration in 2021 was stoked by a focus on misleading data. The key figure consistently cited by politicians and the media last year was the number of apprehensions along the southwestern border. That figure hit 1.7 million in fiscal year 2021, the highest level in 60 years, according to U.S. Customs and Border Protection, which is part of the Department of Homeland Security. That surge in border apprehensions became the key talking point for critics who argued that the Biden administration had lost control over immigration.

But the data on border apprehensions only showed how many times migrants were stopped when they tried to get into the United States. A Homeland Security official said in an interview that the numbers are misleading because one migrant may try to cross the border several times and thus would show up repeatedly in the total figures, inflating the numbers.

Ironically, one factor making it possible for migrants to keep trying to cross so many times is the government’s use of a pandemic-related border restriction that was first put in place by the Trump administration and has continued under Biden. Citing Covid-19, the government has used a public health statute, known as Title 42, to carry out expulsions of migrants at the border without offering them the chance to request asylum. Title 42 expulsions happen so fast that migrants can try to cross again almost immediately.

The data on apprehensions also doesn’t show how many migrants actually got into the United States and were allowed to stay.

There is no current data on how many migrants who were apprehended trying to cross the border in 2021 have been allowed to permanently stay in the United States, the Homeland Security official said. But the official pointed to the department’s “enforcement lifecycle reports” from earlier years, which show that most migrants crossing the border are eventually sent home. A 2020 Homeland Security report found that of 3.5 million “encounters” on the southwestern border between 2014 and 2019, 51 percent of the migrants had already been repatriated, while only 8.1 percent, or 284,000, from that five-year period had been granted relief or other protection from removal.

The obsession over the border apprehension data led politicians and journalists to completely miss the fact that overall immigration cratered during Biden’s first year in office.

U.S. Job Openings Near Record As Vacancies Rise To 11 MillionA “Now Hiring” sign outside a gas station amid record job openings in the U.S. is seen in Seymour, Ind., on Dec. 6, 2021. Photo: Luke Sharrett/Bloomberg via Getty Images
LAST YEAR’S PLUNGING immigration levels came at the same time as declining birth rates and rising mortality rates in the U.S.

The combination of low levels of immigration, a low birth rate, and a higher mortality rate — trends worsened by the pandemic — resulted in the slowest population growth for the United States in any year since the founding of the nation, the Census Bureau found in another new study. The U.S. population grew by only 0.1 percent in 2021, the lowest rate the Census Bureau has ever recorded. It was the first time since 1937, in the midst of the Great Depression, that America’s population grew by less than 1 million, the Census Bureau found.

Sharply reduced immigration and low overall population growth come at the same time as a major labor shortage in the United States. The onset of the pandemic initially led to enormous job losses in 2020 as many businesses went into lockdown. A devastating recession was avoided, however, thanks to the government’s stimulus packages and the Federal Reserve’s easy monetary policy. The government’s aggressive fiscal and monetary pump-priming helped bring about a quick economic recovery and soaring demand for labor in 2021.

The combination of more job openings and fewer workers has forced companies to offer higher wages. Yet the labor shortage has persisted.
But in what has been nicknamed the “Great Resignation,” many people have not returned to the workforce. In an analysis of economic data, the Washington Post reported last month that 3.5 million fewer people are now employed than two years ago, but only about half of them are currently looking for a job. Many are older workers who decided during the pandemic to take early retirement.

The combination of more job openings and fewer workers has forced companies to offer higher wages. Yet the labor shortage has persisted, leading to worsening supply chain problems and higher prices.

Low immigration is making the labor shortage worse. There are now about 2 million fewer immigrants of working age than would have been expected before 2020, according to Giovanni Peri and Reem Zaiour, economists at the University of California, Davis. In an article published this month, they estimated that nearly 1 million of those “lost” immigrants would have been college-educated.

The steep drop in “immigrant and nonimmigrant visa arrivals resulted in zero growth in working-age foreign-born people in the United States,” they wrote.

2022 may finally bring stability. In late 2021, there were some signs, particularly in government data about visa applications and international flights, that immigration levels were bouncing back from the stark lows earlier in the year. “In the publicly available visa data that we have been monitoring in recent months, we’ve seen immigration levels higher,” the Census Bureau analyst said. “We’ve seen visa data start to return to pre-pandemic levels, and airline international passenger counts are returning to pre-pandemic levels.” Whether the ongoing omicron variant wave of the Covid-19 pandemic will once again lead to a plunge in immigration is yet to be determined.

But the toxic, anti-immigrant political climate in the United States — underscored by right-wing conspiracy theories like the “great replacement” — will make it exceedingly difficult to significantly increase immigration levels in order to ease labor shortages. Today conservatives loudly complain about inflation and supply chain woes, but their xenophobic fears seem to blind them to the economic and social dangers that can arise from chronically low levels of immigration.

In fact, the nationalist, anti-immigrant policies of the Republican Party are now dividing it from many of its traditional corporate supporters. To address the labor shortage, supply chain problems, and rising prices, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce — long a GOP stalwart — called earlier this month for a doubling of legal immigration. The fight over immigration could soon become a proxy for a broader war between the new, nationalist base of the Republican Party and its more traditional supporters in the business community.“


What a joke! I don't give a shit which party!

And as far as I can tell the democrats are the worst at enforcing our immigration policies......we don't need the uneducated mostly illiterate with the gang problems that come from this surge. We need to stop this shit and get our resources enforcing our sovereignty!

Further, they aren't immigrants! They are illegal aliens! Immigrants follow the law!
 
Posts: 40071 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
Administrator
posted Hide Post
Hahaha!

America is complaining that Russia is going to install its own puppet in the Ukraine!

Hahahaha!

How many puppets has America installed in other countries?? clap


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Posts: 60354 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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