Who gives a shit about Russia?
Really?
They do their own thing we do ours
Biden corrupted Ukraine with promises of whatever if they break politically with Russia and results are in now…

The whole Russia-Ukraine thing started during Obama’s Presidency. The Russian justification was the US caused the pro Russian President to loose an election (We probably did).

Putin appears to me to be looking for any excuse to rebuild the Russia bloc satellite states.

This is what happens when a KGB operative is allowed to cease power after the fall of a Communist system.

I'd beg to differ.

Our problems with Russia started well before that.

I remember the outrage from Russia regarding our sending military troops on an exercise to Georgia. That predated Putin.

Our government does seem to poke the bear a lot, and gets strange ideas as to what supporting democracy involves, mainly trying to tell other people what their people really want.

Remember that some of the crap in Ukraine started when the Ukrainians felt that because the Russian pipeline went through Ukraine to the west, that they had a right to some of the natural gas flowing through without paying for it.

The US has started wars before over trade practices, or lack thereof.

The point being that Russia's belligerent attitude aside, neither we nor the Ukrainians are on the side of angels here.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I'd beg to differ.

Our problems with Russia started well before that.

I remember the outrage from Russia regarding our sending military troops on an exercise to Georgia. That predated Putin.

Our government does seem to poke the bear a lot, and gets strange ideas as to what supporting democracy involves, mainly trying to tell other people what their people really want.

Remember that some of the crap in Ukraine started when the Ukrainians felt that because the Russian pipeline went through Ukraine to the west, that they had a right to some of the natural gas flowing through without paying for it.

The US has started wars before over trade practices, or lack thereof.

The point being that Russia's belligerent attitude aside, neither we nor the Ukrainians are on the side of angels here.

Well said Doc

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
The EU was responsible for the break up of the former Yugoslavia ? So it wasn’t the Serb ambition to rule the whole place by screwing with the federal voting system?

Maybe you’d better let the history books know so they can rewrite what they have wrong.

Like I said , it’s complicated and western world has a hard time to understand Eastern Europe
And I’m not taking sides or arguing, it’s just what I hear over there from people
And history is what each side makes of it

It’s not any more complicated than other balkans messes in the past. The EU had nothing to do with it. It was political manipulation of the federal system by Serbia which was the initial spark and any one who tells you it was the EU is a deluded conspiracy theorist.

The EU was pathetic in their response trying to stop it, and we should all be grateful to the US for their eventual intervention.

We differ and that’s OK

If you have something to support your assertions id happily read it. But i know of no evidence whatsoever that the EU caused it. They were bloody useless in trying to stop it, id be the first to agree to that.

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
The EU was responsible for the break up of the former Yugoslavia ? So it wasn’t the Serb ambition to rule the whole place by screwing with the federal voting system?

Maybe you’d better let the history books know so they can rewrite what they have wrong.

Like I said , it’s complicated and western world has a hard time to understand Eastern Europe
And I’m not taking sides or arguing, it’s just what I hear over there from people
And history is what each side makes of it

It’s not any more complicated than other balkans messes in the past. The EU had nothing to do with it. It was political manipulation of the federal system by Serbia which was the initial spark and any one who tells you it was the EU is a deluded conspiracy theorist.

The EU was pathetic in their response trying to stop it, and we should all be grateful to the US for their eventual intervention.

We differ and that’s OK

If you have something to support your assertions id happily read it. But i know of no evidence whatsoever that the EU caused it. They were bloody useless in trying to stop it, id be the first to agree to that.

Again, I see it differently then you
Pretty much matter of how you look at it/from which side
But like I said, I’m not here to convince you

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I'd beg to differ.

Our problems with Russia started well before that.

I remember the outrage from Russia regarding our sending military troops on an exercise to Georgia. That predated Putin.

Our government does seem to poke the bear a lot, and gets strange ideas as to what supporting democracy involves, mainly trying to tell other people what their people really want.

Remember that some of the crap in Ukraine started when the Ukrainians felt that because the Russian pipeline went through Ukraine to the west, that they had a right to some of the natural gas flowing through without paying for it.

The US has started wars before over trade practices, or lack thereof.

The point being that Russia's belligerent attitude aside, neither we nor the Ukrainians are on the side of angels here.

All due respect we are not talking about Russia-Georgia. We are talking about US-Russia-Ukraine crisis. This specific crisis did start during Obama.

Also, if someone is using your territory for financial benefit. You should demand a piece of that action wo paying for it. Or make Russia put its pipeline somewhere else.

There is no crisis that involves US
It’s dispute between Russians and Ukraine
Why do we butt in?

You stated that US-Russian relations got bad under Obama. I’m no Obama fan, but let’s be honest. The Ukrainian issues to some extent have their root in our ongoing behavior since the breakup of the USSR.

It’s not that Obama was weak, it’s that Russia has a memory of the Mongols, Napoleon, and Hitler and that the only way to win was trade lives and space for time.

Putin used that fear.

Our foreign policy is by nature schizoid. Every 4-8 years it changes in particulars.

We started doing acts we saw as showing the flag of self determination in the former Republics. That played into the Russian fears. Better foreign policy would have accomplished the same thing without allowing Putin the ability to exploit those fears.

I somewhat disagree.

If we allow wars of territorial conquest, we allow the world to become more unstable and unsafe.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
There is no crisis that involves US
It’s dispute between Russians and Ukraine
Why do we butt in?

As to the pipeline, there was already an agreement in place with Ukraine - fair or not.

Ukraine was pulling enough gas out that it was not reaching the markets that paid for it.

In 2019, Russian gas settled to an almost 3 billion, 5 yr agreement. Hardly unfair.
Corruption in the Ukraine is as bad as anywhere, they want more and more.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I somewhat disagree.

If we allow wars of territorial conquest, we allow the world to become more unstable and unsafe.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
There is no crisis that involves US
It’s dispute between Russians and Ukraine
Why do we butt in?

The US has a military presence in half the nations on earth. 80 out of the 160 nations.

It was insinuated here that we recently gave Syria to the Russians. I pointed out that Russia has had permanent military bases in Syria since the 1970's and the response was not so deafening.

It's been argued here that the world was a safer place when the sun never set on the British Empire.

The instability our planet has seen for the last half century has been de colonized nations in Asia and Africa newly blessed with 20th and 21st century weapons feeling the freedom to resurrect old tribal grievances that'd been dormant for generations.
The Soviets wouldn't of allowed the Serbs to genocide.

I'm sure the dislike goes back to Cossacks and WW2, Soviet satellites, different hairstyles and Vlads dick measuring contest.

The ukraine is a bunch of fuckups, they should have had the Soviet nukes taken away from them since the nukes weren't theirs and I'm all for Russia retaking the ukraine as well as Afghanistan and Chechnya.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
In 2019, Russian gas settled to an almost 3 billion, 5 yr agreement. Hardly unfair.
Corruption in the Ukraine is as bad as anywhere, they want more and more.

I am glad there was a solution. The insinuation that Ukraine had no right to charge or take fuel from the pipeline through their country is what I disagreed with.

Everyone should get the best deal they can. I know we did when we did a deal letting Natural Gas development on our property. Holding a developer up for the most you can for the access you provided is not corruption. That is good business. I say that as a developer.

W

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I somewhat disagree.

If we allow wars of territorial conquest, we allow the world to become more unstable and unsafe.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
There is no crisis that involves US
It’s dispute between Russians and Ukraine
Why do we butt in?

It’s complicated and simple at the same time
It’s hard to understand from the outside
Ultimately simple

State Department ordered US diplomats and family to leave Ukraine this evening voting likelihood of Russia military action.

Eastern provinces are as good as gone no matter what
All settled by native Russians so good luck Ukraine to rule it
Same thing happened to Krym, majority Russians so naturally it went back to Russia
I don’t understand the concern we have for that

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The whole Russia-Ukraine thing started during Obama’s Presidency. The Russian justification was the US caused the pro Russian President to loose an election (We probably did).

Putin appears to me to be looking for any excuse to rebuild the Russia bloc satellite states.

This is what happens when a KGB operative is allowed to cease power after the fall of a Communist system.

Its also what happens when the united States has a weak leader.....Obama...... Biden.....

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The whole Russia-Ukraine thing started during Obama’s Presidency. The Russian justification was the US caused the pro Russian President to loose an election (We probably did).

Putin appears to me to be looking for any excuse to rebuild the Russia bloc satellite states.

This is what happens when a KGB operative is allowed to cease power after the fall of a Communist system.

Its also what happens when the united States has a weak leader.....Obama...... Biden.....

Or One Term Wonder Criminal!

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

quote:

Originally posted by nute:
The EU was responsible for the break up of the former Yugoslavia ? So it wasn’t the Serb ambition to rule the whole place by screwing with the federal voting system?

Maybe you’d better let the history books know so they can rewrite what they have wrong.

Like I said , it’s complicated and western world has a hard time to understand Eastern Europe
And I’m not taking sides or arguing, it’s just what I hear over there from people
And history is what each side makes of it

It’s not any more complicated than other balkans messes in the past. The EU had nothing to do with it. It was political manipulation of the federal system by Serbia which was the initial spark and any one who tells you it was the EU is a deluded conspiracy theorist.

The EU was pathetic in their response trying to stop it, and we should all be grateful to the US for their eventual intervention.

We differ and that’s OK

If you have something to support your assertions id happily read it. But i know of no evidence whatsoever that the EU caused it. They were bloody useless in trying to stop it, id be the first to agree to that.

The UN and the EU completely failed to mediate on the Balkans in the 1990s. Gutless leadership as always. The US stepped in and finished!!. Whether that was good is another debate. But the point is EU and all the leaders are just skinny boned academics who believe everything can be done(fixed) by filling out forms and talking....even with someone is sqeezing a trigger to shoot their dumb head of.

Might be a Win / Win. The Russians get to be the keepers of Europe and the U.S. gets to pull back with in the borders of the U.S.
The Europeans have been serfs for millennia having the Russians as their bosses won't be much different.
The Russians extracted what ever it is that gives people the inclination towards independent thinking, the desire for freedom'.
Let's see if the Europeans and those from the former Soviet impire want to step up and fight. I wonder who will step up to be this centuries (can't rememeber the British Prime Minister who flew to Germany to negotiate with Hitler for 'Peace in our time'
Hell the Douche bag in Chief may put on fresh Depends and fly to Moscow and present Putin with his very own 'Air Force One"
'

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
You stated that US-Russian relations got bad under Obama. I’m no Obama fan, but let’s be honest. The Ukrainian issues to some extent have their root in our ongoing behavior since the breakup of the USSR.

It’s not that Obama was weak, it’s that Russia has a memory of the Mongols, Napoleon, and Hitler and that the only way to win was trade lives and space for time.

Putin used that fear.

Our foreign policy is by nature schizoid. Every 4-8 years it changes in particulars.

We started doing acts we saw as showing the flag of self determination in the former Republics. That played into the Russian fears. Better foreign policy would have accomplished the same thing without allowing Putin the ability to exploit those fears.

I did not state relations got bad under Obama. I specifically said Ukraine tension/crisis started under President Obama.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The whole Russia-Ukraine thing started during Obama’s Presidency. The Russian justification was the US caused the pro Russian President to loose an election (We probably did).

Putin appears to me to be looking for any excuse to rebuild the Russia bloc satellite states.

This is what happens when a KGB operative is allowed to cease power after the fall of a Communist system.

Its also what happens when the united States has a weak leader.....Obama...... Biden.....

Or One Term Wonder Criminal!

What a dumb was statement????? Russia was pretty quite about Ukraine whil Trump was president....