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posted
There now appear to be 3 companies offering covid vaccines. Is any one going to have an advantage over the other/others?
I have looked, but can find nothing to support one over another.
 
Posts: 3734 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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I’m not aware of any advantage of one over the others.

They haven’t been compared to each other in testing that I have seen.

I’m only aware of the Pfizer and the Moderna ones as far as the US is concerned. Not sure about the 3rd one you mentioned.
 
Posts: 6261 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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The 3rd is the (Oxford) Astra Zeneca DNA variant-
much less expensive to store (much warmer temps)
as well as less expensive to manufacture.
Studies showing 70% "effectiveness"
(in primary study vs about 90 in a secondary study)

vs 90's+ on Moderna and Pfizer


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Posts: 3393 | Location: TX | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Oxford one, as said, is cheaper and easier to store and transport, but seems to have more short-term side effects (headaches, local pain, fatigue, chills -that's from the phase II trial studies).
The others are more expensive, have less side effects, and seem to offer similar levels of protection (from the phase III trials).
Pfizer and Moderna both ~95%, Oxford ~90% (but there are some questions about the data, it might be the case that it's a bit lower in older age classes). For Oxford twice a full dose resulted in 62% effectiveness, while half dose then full dose resulted in 90% effectiveness (and less side effects which are always more at the first dose, which was reduced). However, they didn't plan it like that. The full-full dose was a group of nearly 9,000 people, while the half-full dose was a good 2,000. It can very well be that the FDA won't allow the Oxford vaccine on the market until they've done a full study within the US (current results are from studies in the UK, Brazil and South Africa).

What is very encouraging is that both in the Oxford and in the Moderna trial nobody who had received the vaccine needed hospitalisation. In the Moderna trial of 196 cases, 185 were in the placebo group. None of the 11 in the vaccinated group was a severe cases, while there were 30 severe cases in the placebo group.
It might end up that if you want an RNA vaccine you'll have to go to a big hospital in a city, and other vaccines which are more easily storaged are distributed rurally.
 
Posts: 222 | Registered: 08 October 2011Reply With Quote
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The 'Rona has a 99.6% survival rate and the vaxx's will be 95% effective. Still seems there will be mask requirements no matter what.


~Ann



 
Posts: 15691 | Location: The LOST Nation | Registered: 27 March 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by BushPeter:
Oxford one, as said, is cheaper and easier to store and transport, but seems to have more short-term side effects (headaches, local pain, fatigue, chills -that's from the phase II trial studies).
The others are more expensive, have less side effects, and seem to offer similar levels of protection (from the phase III trials).
Pfizer and Moderna both ~95%, Oxford ~90% (but there are some questions about the data, it might be the case that it's a bit lower in older age classes). For Oxford twice a full dose resulted in 62% effectiveness, while half dose then full dose resulted in 90% effectiveness (and less side effects which are always more at the first dose, which was reduced). However, they didn't plan it like that. The full-full dose was a group of nearly 9,000 people, while the half-full dose was a good 2,000. It can very well be that the FDA won't allow the Oxford vaccine on the market until they've done a full study within the US (current results are from studies in the UK, Brazil and South Africa).

What is very encouraging is that both in the Oxford and in the Moderna trial nobody who had received the vaccine needed hospitalisation. In the Moderna trial of 196 cases, 185 were in the placebo group. None of the 11 in the vaccinated group was a severe cases, while there were 30 severe cases in the placebo group.
It might end up that if you want an RNA vaccine you'll have to go to a big hospital in a city, and other vaccines which are more easily storaged are distributed rurally.


Should be covered by insurance. An inexpensive version should certainly be welcome in some of the more poverty stricken countries.


Gve me a home where the buffalo roam and I'll show you a house full of buffalo chit.
 
Posts: 203 | Location: IOWA | Registered: 27 October 2018Reply With Quote
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I don't trust any of them.

Not enough testing.

Results are fake.

Apparently one of them has not been tested on anyone over 55!

A friend here, who is a doctor, said these tests are like testing birth control, and giving the pills to men.

You get 100% results.

Funny thing is we had lockdown when we were getting 500 infections a day in our city.

Now we are running anything between 1000-2000 per day, but life is back to normal.

We have no lockdowns, we can go anywhere we like, malls are open, sports are open. Shops in the malls have restricted number of customers in any shop - the number is so high they never have that many anyway.

Went to a camera shop I go to regularly, they had a sign at the door say maximum number of customers 28!

I have never, ever seen that number in that shop, even during the sales.


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Posts: 54001 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Okay, Saeed, I don't trust them either. My "trust" bank is on the deficient side all around these days.

So, when this vaccine seems to be available to me, at my age and the scheme of availability "they" deem, I plan to talk to at least two of my doctors and ask for their advice. I'll take their advice. I will ask them specifically what they know about the effects and probabilities for people my age.

That's as simple as I can make it.


--------------------------------------------------------

Reality: Resistance is Futile.

---------------------------------------------------------

 
Posts: 11727 | Location: Depends on the Season | Registered: 17 February 2017Reply With Quote
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We truly have a paucity of data-
Not that it makes them truly untrustworthy -

I will be made to take whichever one becomes required by the
facilities in which i practice and perform research.

Then again,
There are not many vaccines i have not had.

(None have done me serious harm , not even the second generation
H.D.C.V. Rabies vaccine that killed a number of animal researchers in the 70’s,
due to its “attenuated “ virus not being quite as “attenuated “ as was thought,
along with other problems)
(This was at a time when the news rags were more concerned with South East Asia
than dying researchers)

Back to today-
It is likely that these “novel”, mRNA and DNA vaccines,
Although the first of their types,
Will be as dangerous as other medications that received approval in years past.
(although as I mentioned in another post the rapidity
and lack of broad testing is concerning)

An additional hurdle is the current anti- vaccine positions
and media campaigns by celebrities
as well as the GMO phobia that is currently highly prevalent.
It will be a tough sell to a suspicious and divided population.

It is more likely the Kardashians or other of their ilk
would be more persuasive than Fauci or other “experts” on the “unwashed” masses.
Roll Eyes


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Posts: 3393 | Location: TX | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Then again,
There are not many vaccines i have not had.


True.

But, other vaccines have had the required testing, not driven by political expediency.

I have had all the required vaccines too, but never had any flu shot.


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Posts: 54001 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Saeed, the truly groundbreaking vaccines didn't have much testing, and were grandfathered in.

Smallpox (which most don't get anymore)

Tetanus.

Polio.

All of the vaccination programs for these were driven by political expediency as well.

Yes, they have been safe, but it is definitely an issue of what the vaccine does that is bad vs what the disease does. That is where the brainless antivaxxers come in. As long as everyone else does it, they don't have to... risking their kid's future health and also the health of the few who have legitimate contraindications.

Yellow fever is one that is notorious for side effects, yet you get that before going to endemic countries. The rate of bad outcomes from getting yellow fever is much worse than the fact that a few folks die from getting the vaccine.

The current testing protocol should pick up any high likelihood short term adverse effects. Maybe these could be reduced with a long term approval process.

The low incidence stuff will not get picked up reliably until we have millions getting the vaccine. The long term risks will not be known until 10-50 years down the road, regardless of frequency.

For all the folks that are demanding masks, shutdowns, etc. to protect the few who are at high risk of bad outcomes, they really should not dare state that they will not get the vaccine. Its the same issue, and at least the vaccine has been proven more effective than these other tactics we have been using. (that they can say a hard 70 or 90% effectiveness is more protective than an expert opinion "it may help slow the spread."
 
Posts: 6261 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
that they can say a hard 70 or 90% effectiveness is more protective than


quote-vaccine has been proven more effective

THAN MASKS AND DISTANCING????


BULLSHIT. They did not run the tests by giving one test group the shots and

compare to another group with no shots, but who were properly masked and properly

social distancing, properly watching group sizes, working in properly setup work sites,

shopping in stores properly set up................

you and them drug co are a fascist quacks...


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 25661 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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Reading this this AM (now off the plane and off the phone screen)

it should have read:
quote:
Although the first of their types,
Will be ONLY as dangerous as other medications that received approval in years past.
(although as I mentioned in another post the rapidity of deveopment
and lack of broad testing is concerning)


It is true that Smallpox, Tetanus and Polio came to use quickly--
however these were decades ago-
(i received the first Polio vaccine in 54 or 55)

Yes, there was then and is now political expediency
and THAT is to be expected-

it does bother me that other good and better tested pharmaceuticals are refused US use
for truly minor potential dangers (especially in oncology)where saving lives is a real probability

so no , I am no anti-vaxxer, (in fact got another vaccine yesterday)

At this juncture we do not know :
the percentage of the population that may be in a "carrier" state-
So yes, vaccination especially of the particularly vulnerable-
and the aged (65 and older, particularly 75 and older) is recommended

(after all we aren't going to be around that much longer anyway, Eeker )


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Posts: 3393 | Location: TX | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I don't trust any of them.

Not enough testing.

Results are fake.

Apparently one of them has not been tested on anyone over 55!

A friend here, who is a doctor, said these tests are like testing birth control, and giving the pills to men.

You get 100% results.

Funny thing is we had lockdown when we were getting 500 infections a day in our city.

Now we are running anything between 1000-2000 per day, but life is back to normal.

We have no lockdowns, we can go anywhere we like, malls are open, sports are open. Shops in the malls have restricted number of customers in any shop - the number is so high they never have that many anyway.

Went to a camera shop I go to regularly, they had a sign at the door say maximum number of customers 28!

I have never, ever seen that number in that shop, even during the sales.


What would be enough testing for you? What do you like to see from test results? Right now well over 100,000 people have been vaccinated with the different vaccines and nobody died, and none of the severe illnesses which developed (and if you follow 100,000 people for 3 months, some will get sick anyway!) could be linked to any of the vaccines.

The Oxford one had two groups, and indeed in the smaller group (of nearly 2,300 people) nobody was over 55.
But in another study the Oxford vaccine did show a good immune resonse in people over 55.
Pfizer claimed good effectiveness in elderly in the older group, ahd had 40.9% of 41,135 participants in that group, but the group consisted of people 56-85. And 56 is quite different from 70. It's not clear if how they were distributed in that wide age-class. In the study of Oxford focused on safety and immune response in elderly their age classes were 56-69, and 70 and over, with 160 people in the lower age class, and 240 in the higher age class. Again, this was focused on detecting common side effects and immune response. The immune respons was good and the side effects less than in <55.

Paper: https://www.thelancet.com/jour...(20)32466-1/fulltext

Or short press release: https://covid19vaccinetrial.co...ii-trial-publication

Many places had strict lockdowns when number of detected cases were much lower, but little testing was done then. Hospitals at that time were overflowing, now they're not. It's not that treatment has gotten that much better (it has got better), but because there is now a lot more testing. Although, I think that in your region they were very quick to mass test, Saeed?

28 max, when that's never even reached Big Grin

As for 95% effectiveness, so 95% less cases. And the cases which are there, have a 10 times reduction in hospitalisations (which could be larger, but can't estimate it yet as there haven't been any hospitalisations of vaccinated people!).

Currently about 3.5% of cases in the US need to be hospitalised, and about half of those die.
Last weeks there were about 100.000 cases per day (that makes the calculations easier), and thus about 3,500 hospitalisations per day. If there is herd immunity that would be 5,000 cases a day, and ten times less than expected hospitalisations based on that. So instead of 350 hospitalisations, 35.
I'd say that's more than good enough for everybody to just act normally again! Acting without restriction will increase the number of cases, but that shouldn't be an issue either, it could be quite an increase from 35 hospitalisations a day to become a problem again.
 
Posts: 222 | Registered: 08 October 2011Reply With Quote
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Picture of jdollar
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quote:
Originally posted by Grandpasez:
quote:
that they can say a hard 70 or 90% effectiveness is more protective than


quote-vaccine has been proven more effective

THAN MASKS AND DISTANCING????


BULLSHIT. They did not run the tests by giving one test group the shots and

compare to another group with no shots, but who were properly masked and properly

social distancing, properly watching group sizes, working in properly setup work sites,

shopping in stores properly set up................

you and them drug co are a fascist quacks...


Thank you Dr spaz for your educated opinion. BTW, where was it you went to med school? Oh, that’s right-YOU DIDNT. YOU WERE TOO BUSY DEVELOPING SHOT SHELLS THAT NOBODY WANTED OR NEED! cuckoo
 
Posts: 9041 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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Some body wanted and used the cartridge research as it got into

the various cartridge books around the world..And used so much

that the powders we adapted for that use, have been

in shortage for years,,



And they still need more testing and not rush the vaccines

and 6-8 monthes more of testing andand the people taking

good precautions will not hurt us a bit..


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 25661 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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You dodged my question. Where did you go to med school? And what manufacturer has adopted and produced any of the shotshells you developed? If there was any commercial interest in the crap you played with, somebody would be selling it. Just because you have something useless listed in COTW doesn’t give give you ANY scientific credibility. Try again, granspaz.... cuckoo salute space
 
Posts: 9041 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BushPeter:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I don't trust any of them.

Not enough testing.

Results are fake.

Apparently one of them has not been tested on anyone over 55!

A friend here, who is a doctor, said these tests are like testing birth control, and giving the pills to men.

You get 100% results.

Funny thing is we had lockdown when we were getting 500 infections a day in our city.

Now we are running anything between 1000-2000 per day, but life is back to normal.

We have no lockdowns, we can go anywhere we like, malls are open, sports are open. Shops in the malls have restricted number of customers in any shop - the number is so high they never have that many anyway.

Went to a camera shop I go to regularly, they had a sign at the door say maximum number of customers 28!

I have never, ever seen that number in that shop, even during the sales.


What would be enough testing for you? What do you like to see from test results? Right now well over 100,000 people have been vaccinated with the different vaccines and nobody died, and none of the severe illnesses which developed (and if you follow 100,000 people for 3 months, some will get sick anyway!) could be linked to any of the vaccines.

The Oxford one had two groups, and indeed in the smaller group (of nearly 2,300 people) nobody was over 55.
But in another study the Oxford vaccine did show a good immune resonse in people over 55.
Pfizer claimed good effectiveness in elderly in the older group, ahd had 40.9% of 41,135 participants in that group, but the group consisted of people 56-85. And 56 is quite different from 70. It's not clear if how they were distributed in that wide age-class. In the study of Oxford focused on safety and immune response in elderly their age classes were 56-69, and 70 and over, with 160 people in the lower age class, and 240 in the higher age class. Again, this was focused on detecting common side effects and immune response. The immune respons was good and the side effects less than in <55.

Paper: https://www.thelancet.com/jour...(20)32466-1/fulltext

Or short press release: https://covid19vaccinetrial.co...ii-trial-publication

Many places had strict lockdowns when number of detected cases were much lower, but little testing was done then. Hospitals at that time were overflowing, now they're not. It's not that treatment has gotten that much better (it has got better), but because there is now a lot more testing. Although, I think that in your region they were very quick to mass test, Saeed?

28 max, when that's never even reached Big Grin

As for 95% effectiveness, so 95% less cases. And the cases which are there, have a 10 times reduction in hospitalisations (which could be larger, but can't estimate it yet as there haven't been any hospitalisations of vaccinated people!).

Currently about 3.5% of cases in the US need to be hospitalised, and about half of those die.
Last weeks there were about 100.000 cases per day (that makes the calculations easier), and thus about 3,500 hospitalisations per day. If there is herd immunity that would be 5,000 cases a day, and ten times less than expected hospitalisations based on that. So instead of 350 hospitalisations, 35.
I'd say that's more than good enough for everybody to just act normally again! Acting without restriction will increase the number of cases, but that shouldn't be an issue either, it could be quite an increase from 35 hospitalisations a day to become a problem again.


We probably have one of the highest rates of tests in any country in the world.

Because of the continuous tests, as required to be able to travel within the country between Emirates, we have had more tests than the population.

Currently stands at 1,700,000 tests per million of the population!!??

Had to take my daughter to be tested a while ago, because one of the students in her class had it.

She did not get it.

Had several friends who had it.

One stayed in hospital for weeks, was on the verge of dying.

But this man has been sick most of his life.

Others tested positive, but reported very mild effects, less than the flu!!??


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Instagram : ganyana2000
 
Posts: 54001 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Studied medicine when a paramedic on FD and still study it..

\Brass makers are selling the 12ga FH shells for shooters to reload..3 I know,

RMC,,,RCC...Bertram...... Plus Bertram sells my 585 all over the world, Has barrels of them made ahead..

Bullet/slug makers copied and sell some of our creations.And sabot I designed..

I use the term our, which includes Rob and others working also on ideas.

Plus I have 5 other cartridges in the books, have other super shotgun brass cases

besides 12ga that mfgs make. ....And our 585 has so much favor, guys

are wildcatting it , one of which won the King Of 2 Mile Shoot..

and others will be winning more....And we have thousands of those cases made

by a shop..Which includes two super long range cases from bmg cases made for us,..

One gets 572gr long pointed , target bullet over 3500 fps..


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 25661 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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Gramps, face it you're a loon!

.
 
Posts: 38365 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Damn, I’m impressed. A paramedic dog years ago and you are still studying.... And all those fantastic shotgun shells that everyone (nobody??) uses. What a resume to make comments on medical issues. You really need to learn when to keep your mouth shut and to be thought an senile old fool rather than post here and remove all doubt. CHANGE YOUR DIAPER, TAKE YOUR ALZIEMER MEDS, AND TOTTER OFF TO BED. cuckoo
 
Posts: 9041 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of boarkiller
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It’s just vaccine, when available I’m getting it and I have not been afraid of this Chin scourge


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...
 
Posts: 11698 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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jd and jt..

couple jealous assholes....


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 25661 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
jd and jt..

couple jealous assholes..



AND STUPID ALSO,

Don't appreciate folks smarter than them..


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 25661 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of jdollar
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You are right. I am really jealous of someone who can’t put together coherent sentences, sees fascists behind every tree, and thinks Putin rules the world. Get back on your Alzheimer’s meds, spaz. space
 
Posts: 9041 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
thinks Putin rules the world



i THINK HE IS TRYING TO RULE THE WORLD

AND IN YOUR LITTLE, STUPID, CIRCLE JERK WORLD HE HAS SUCCEEDED...


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 25661 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of jdollar
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As long as Vlad sends me my money, vodka, and borscht, I don’t care. clap
 
Posts: 9041 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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I wonder if Putin pays you as well as xi pays the old spaz?????


.
 
Posts: 38365 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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