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quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
Thats interesting JTEX, Yes there are some good things, but like everywhere we can do better.
Too often our schools get caught in the trap of teaching what to think and not how to think.
I also recognise there maybe way too much time spent of specific topics that teach standard subjects, but not enough on life skills like the internet, or Budgeting/ saving etc. We are producing kids with some knowledge but maybe not the knowledge they need to be well prepared for life in many aspects.


Agreed 100% shanks, 100%!
 
Posts: 38307 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
Thats interesting JTEX, Yes there are some good things, but like everywhere we can do better.
Too often our schools get caught in the trap of teaching what to think and not how to think.
I also recognise there maybe way too much time spent of specific topics that teach standard subjects, but not enough on life skills like the internet, or Budgeting/ saving etc. We are producing kids with some knowledge but maybe not the knowledge they need to be well prepared for life in many aspects.


When I was in high school, we did not have to choose between math and shop.
By the time I left high school I could weld with arc or gas, type 50 wpm, play a trumpet, and solve equations.
The typing came in real handy when I started Fortran classes with punched cards, and I made my beer money typing other peoples' term papers...


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
 
Posts: 12151 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
Thats interesting JTEX, Yes there are some good things, but like everywhere we can do better.
Too often our schools get caught in the trap of teaching what to think and not how to think.
I also recognise there maybe way too much time spent of specific topics that teach standard subjects, but not enough on life skills like the internet, or Budgeting/ saving etc. We are producing kids with some knowledge but maybe not the knowledge they need to be well prepared for life in many aspects.


When I was in high school, we did not have to choose between math and shop.
By the time I left high school I could weld with arc or gas, type 50 wpm and solve equations.
The typing came in real handy when I started Fortran classes, and I made my beer money typing other peoples' term papers...


That mirrors my own experience. Academic subjects were only a part of the whole. Welding, machining, typing all came in handy, and still do.


Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 6562 | Location: Retired and on the road, baby! | Registered: 15 October 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Declining numbers of Americans have any clue where their food comes from or what it takes to produce it.
More and more Americans know only the urban experience and are cut off from having to solve practical problems on a daily basis -- even simple things like fixing a fence, starting a fire or building a sawbuck for cutting firewood. And firewood? Is that that stuff the summer camp counselor split using some kind of sharp instrument? It looked dangerous ...
And on and on.
Deomocrats grow thick and fast in this petri dish of urban helplessness.


Declining numbers of Americans have enough land to grow anything substantial.
For those in a city it's jobs or the street, in a tent.


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
 
Posts: 12151 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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Shanks

My kids and I have been hosts of your kind generosity.

So I am not going to pick a fight with you.

You can read your own posts and check what you have said.

My response was to your absurd assumptions allegations / accusations about my opinions and values about religion. Totally uncalled for.

The real hate spewing and bullying personal attacks are not you but others. Some have even had to take time out though I never complained to the Admin. You can check 4 or 5 years of nonstop abuse, insults and bullying and hate. I do not need to give you any references. They are all here on ARPF history. AND YOU CLAIM THAT IT IS SELF INFLICTED!

What ever facts I provide are just ignored or dismissed by you. No point trying to debate when you are in denial.

There are plenty of studies to show that rural folk live in much more insular and homogeneous societies. Less diversity in rural communities. These are Anthropological and sociological facts based on serious research for centuries.

Rural folk are therefore more likely to be conservative or right wing.

There are far more Right wing militia extremist groups in rural areas - particularly in the US.

Now you can choose to deny that and keep attacking my posts or do some serious research and find out the facts by yourself.

I doubt you will admit to any facts I post.


quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
Come on Naki. Try harder. You are still deflecting. I also recognise that my prediction on what would be chosen to be ignored was on the money...

summary of your last post:

"This thread has gone all over the place. No point addressing each single post.

A lot of wrong assumptions are being made and then the hate kicks in.

Some who are new here (in terms of engaging in posts / arguments, "debates" etc.) do not understand some of the background and are making totally wrong assumptions."

Summary:
I'll deflect and make statements to avoid loosing.

"It is well documented on ARPF that I am a born again Christian. Yes, baptised, former elder of my church etc. I am just not an "EVANGELICAL" like the American, Republican "cultural Christians" who claim Christian values but do not practice the basic teachings of Christ.

I have posted many times that Jesus was a Liberal, Radical Revolutionary who criticised the "religious" leaders and those who treated the poor badly. Jesus was even criticised by the local leaders for keeping company with sinners. Jesus forgave prostitutes, tax collectors, thieves and even a murderer who repented.

I have posted the below article before. I even started a good thread on it a while back. A lot of that article also addresses Rural culture and Southern culture in the US.

https://www.politicalorphans.c...icalism-is-so-cruel/

The core facts and arguments in this article are very relevant.

It is a fact that many Republicans fall into that group of "Evangelicals". Some are White supremacists who claim that position on Biblical interpretations! Until 1996 the Southern Baptist Church & even the Mormons (note sure about date) had an official theology that the Blacks did not have a soul or that they were the decedents of the murderer Cain and that they carried the cursed mark of Cain! THAT is the bigotry institutionalised for centuries and used to dehumanise people. Same with the Calvinist Church during Apartheid. That is not real Christian teaching or values but the same people still claim to be Evangelicals."

Summary:
I have religious belief which shapes my thought process, But others different interpretation of that belief is wrong.
Some republicans are members of that wrong religion, and some of those are racist. Ill add an opinion piece as proof.

"The facts are simple. Rural folk are MOSTLY part of pretty closed communities. Many do not have a passport, have not travelled much, do not live in very diverse communities, are not very familiar with immigrants etc. This is particularly true in the US and much less so in NZ. There are plenty of studies to support this including Govt statistics in the US govt publications. All one needs to do is search and find the info."

Summary:
Ill state something as fact without support. It will be a negative cliche. Ill tell people this information is easy to find without bothering to find and link to it myself.

"Calling names and abusing and spewing hate is not going to change those facts."

As the only person left here who is bothering to debate with you, Can you show me where I have called you names and spewed hate at you. Where are your facts? because all I see is opinion and statement. And even you are not referring to me, its been 25 odd posts since anyone but me has addressed you in any way. Why is that relevant to the topic now? why do you post that line at almost every opportunity you get?


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10702 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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I have read my own posts. Im happy with them.

Im going to speak very slowly too you now. You have got given facts. You have made statements you called facts.

Im asking you to stop being lazy, and show me the papers that prove your statements so that I can either verify they are correct, or come to a conclusion as to thier validity.

For example the statement you make that there are far more right wing military extremist groups in rural areas. I can not find proof of that.
What I have found though tends to contradict that in some way as a 2011 study by homeland security pointed to more violence related right wing groups coming from urban settings and prisons. While rural right wing groups tended to be more peaceful.
https://www.dhs.gov/sites/defa...oups_Dec2011-508.pdf

You can believe me or not, but before I chose to seriously enter a debate such as this, I sit down a read.And Im reading alot each night on this subject because right now it interests me. My reading is showing me there are issues in both rural and urban areas, and they are not the stereotypes that you mention. Most of them confirm what I see in real life, so....
I will repeat. Its you asking me to believe your statements. If you can not be bothered to show me some evidence to back them up, then why should I believe you?
 
Posts: 1321 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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I have lived rural to some extent or another in three different states. I have never met a single person who was a member of a militia nor have there been people with brown skin hanging from trees in any of these places.

You citiot libtards are nuts.


~Ann



 
Posts: 15679 | Location: The LOST Nation | Registered: 27 March 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
AND YOU CLAIM THAT IT IS SELF INFLICTED!


my dearly departed grandpop told me years ago-
"if you run around with bottom lip stuck out and a horsefly bites it-
just exactly whose fault is that?"


DuggaBoye-O
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Posts: 3387 | Location: TX | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
I have lived rural to some extent or another in three different states. I have never met a single person who was a member of a militia nor have there been people with brown skin hanging from trees in any of these places.

You citiot libtards are nuts.


Same here! I've lived in IL, NH, PA, NC, ME and TX in rural/small town environments. All the angry assholes inhabit the leftist urban cesspools.


Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 6562 | Location: Retired and on the road, baby! | Registered: 15 October 2013Reply With Quote
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In 20-odd years of hunting around Pinedale, now-and-then yakking with people who live there, I have yet to meet a crank (although I've been informed that there is one up the road from one fellow - but I've met the man in question and disagree about the diagnosis).

There are are few cranks around Merna but they are not Wyoming people; they are imports who bought their way in and closed their gates behind them.


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
 
Posts: 12151 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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Shanks

I am going to stop engaging with you on this matter as your statements ate totally inaccurate.

I have given you facts. I have posted charts with references to show that Biden won because of increased support in Red rural districts in key swing states like Pennsylvania. You twisted that around and contradicted it. That particular issue was actually brought to my attention by Rick Santoram, a Republican! I researched it further. And you are refusing to face facts but twisting them. Many others. You are stuck on the conclusion and then you twist the argument to support the conclusions.

You discard the evidence about lower education levels in rural areas by changing the subject to the meaning of education, the relevance of education, types of education, etc. It is you who dodges and twists and avoids cold hard facts.

You claim that you are happy with your posts after calling me a bigot? After saying that I deserve the racial and other hate and insults ? You seem to be happy with your allegations of me being prejudiced about religious groups without knowing anything about my own values.

You claim to read. If you read that that Forbes article I referenced, you would know the real sordid and hateful history of the Evangelicals in the US.

Enough said.



quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
I have read my own posts. Im happy with them.

Im going to speak very slowly too you now. You have got given facts. You have made statements you called facts.

Im asking you to stop being lazy, and show me the papers that prove your statements so that I can either verify they are correct, or come to a conclusion as to thier validity.

For example the statement you make that there are far more right wing military extremist groups in rural areas. I can not find proof of that.
What I have found though tends to contradict that in some way as a 2011 study by homeland security pointed to more violence related right wing groups coming from urban settings and prisons. While rural right wing groups tended to be more peaceful.
https://www.dhs.gov/sites/defa...oups_Dec2011-508.pdf

You can believe me or not, but before I chose to seriously enter a debate such as this, I sit down a read.And Im reading alot each night on this subject because right now it interests me. My reading is showing me there are issues in both rural and urban areas, and they are not the stereotypes that you mention. Most of them confirm what I see in real life, so....
I will repeat. Its you asking me to believe your statements. If you can not be bothered to show me some evidence to back them up, then why should I believe you?


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10702 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Classic! You run on now Naki. I feel sorry if you believe what you write because you are only fooling yourself. The values you put on me are exactly what everyone here sees in your performance.

For the record My conversations re education meaning, relevance and type were not with you, they were side conversations with others.
I didnt disagree with your charts showing biden won through increased support. I offered some rationale and common sense to what should have been a fairly obvious conclusion

Dude, I called you a bigot, because you showed bigotry and hypocrisy.

As to your religious beliefs, I simple pointed out yet another hypocrisy in your post on this subject. I have made no comment on your personal beliefs, whether they are right or wrong.

As far as the evangelicals gos, your supposition was way off topic, and really requires way more comment and discussion in a thread of its own on factors like relevance, cultural identity and whether its a communities right to hold its beliefs say in comparison to our worlds acceptance of other religious beliefs such as Islam- leading too, is it correct that we should make statements such as because some islamists are terroists, should we then blame the entire community and discard their entire belief system as bad? Because that was the tone of your supposition re evangelicals.

Now you wonder why I think you deserve some of the shit thrown at you. Its because your behaviour in theses debates is appalling. I would not use some of the language thrown at you, But Understand that you are the maker of your own position and how it has got to that. I don't feel sorry for you in that regard anyway.

Run on. I think most here would agree, you just got your arse whipped by an uneducated farmer.



quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Shanks

I am going to stop engaging with you on this matter as your statements ate totally inaccurate.

I have given you facts. I have posted charts with references to show that Biden won because of increased support in Red rural districts in key swing states like Pennsylvania. You twisted that around and contradicted it. That particular issue was actually brought to my attention by Rick Santoram, a Republican! I researched it further. And you are refusing to face facts but twisting them. Many others. You are stuck on the conclusion and then you twist the argument to support the conclusions.

You discard the evidence about lower education levels in rural areas by changing the subject to the meaning of education, the relevance of education, types of education, etc. It is you who dodges and twists and avoids cold hard facts.

You claim that you are happy with your posts after calling me a bigot? After saying that I deserve the racial and other hate and insults ? You seem to be happy with your allegations of me being prejudiced about religious groups without knowing anything about my own values.

You claim to read. If you read that that Forbes article I referenced, you would know the real sordid and hateful history of the Evangelicals in the US.

Enough said.



quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
I have read my own posts. Im happy with them.

Im going to speak very slowly too you now. You have got given facts. You have made statements you called facts.

Im asking you to stop being lazy, and show me the papers that prove your statements so that I can either verify they are correct, or come to a conclusion as to thier validity.

For example the statement you make that there are far more right wing military extremist groups in rural areas. I can not find proof of that.
What I have found though tends to contradict that in some way as a 2011 study by homeland security pointed to more violence related right wing groups coming from urban settings and prisons. While rural right wing groups tended to be more peaceful.
https://www.dhs.gov/sites/defa...oups_Dec2011-508.pdf

You can believe me or not, but before I chose to seriously enter a debate such as this, I sit down a read.And Im reading alot each night on this subject because right now it interests me. My reading is showing me there are issues in both rural and urban areas, and they are not the stereotypes that you mention. Most of them confirm what I see in real life, so....
I will repeat. Its you asking me to believe your statements. If you can not be bothered to show me some evidence to back them up, then why should I believe you?
 
Posts: 1321 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Naki has gotten his ass whipped by virtually everyone here!

He tries his passive aggressive know it all bullshit everytime and every time he gets his stupid ass handed to him.

.
 
Posts: 38307 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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They do well in certain rural areas. Look at Minnesota. I will never understand that states politics. All to do with the history of the Labor Party. A major issue with this election was the amount of city people that moved to rural areas this year. Now people are moving to Georgia so they can vote in the Senate runoff.
 
Posts: 19 | Location: Eastern NC Outer Banks | Registered: 09 November 2020Reply With Quote
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Minnesota does have its own strange political trends... but the majority of it is centered on location of public universities and government employment.

Where those are predominantly present, the county votes democrat.

Only one exception this year was Cook county, which is still strongly labor Union (what was called the iron range, and has been economically depressed since manufacturing was gutted in the US).

From my point of view, who cares why the Dems don’t do well in rural America (as a conservative, I can dang well understand it); what I don’t get is why urban areas vote so strongly democrat?

Free stuff is all well and good, and explains some things; but if that was the only issue, the GOP would have done well this cycle with Trump giving everyone the stimulus check.

Why do the urban areas seem to predicate to the Democrats?
 
Posts: 6220 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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Because, Dr. Butler, they've been brainwashed into believing that the Dems are "the party of the people,"
and that Reps are the "party of big business."

The ability of folks to recognize otherwise and think independently has been gro we ing, but not nearly at an acceptable pace.


Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 6562 | Location: Retired and on the road, baby! | Registered: 15 October 2013Reply With Quote
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Wait, there's more:
https://www.westernjournal.com..._campaign=manualpost


Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 6562 | Location: Retired and on the road, baby! | Registered: 15 October 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
Minnesota does have its own strange political trends... but the majority of it is centered on location of public universities and government employment.

Where those are predominantly present, the county votes democrat.

Only one exception this year was Cook county, which is still strongly labor Union (what was called the iron range, and has been economically depressed since manufacturing was gutted in the US).

From my point of view, who cares why the Dems don’t do well in rural America (as a conservative, I can dang well understand it); what I don’t get is why urban areas vote so strongly democrat?

Free stuff is all well and good, and explains some things; but if that was the only issue, the GOP would have done well this cycle with Trump giving everyone the stimulus check.

Why do the urban areas seem to predicate to the Democrats?


Yep that question was on my mind too? why is there so much angst about conservative vote, and apparently not about socialist vote. Either can be shit if it exceeds a certain spectrum.
 
Posts: 1321 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Doc

We have been through this many times.

Republicans are the Party of entitlement.

The rich get all the tax cuts. They get the lower tax rate for investments. Why should someone investing in their own self improvement not get the same low tax rate as a Wall Street speculator?

Remember the kicking McConnell got from Cumo regarding subsidies and who pays for whom?

It has already been pointed out that Biden got the votes from states that contribute 70% to GDP and the Trump states contribute 30% to GDP. A huge chunk of that would be Texas.

Urban areas have larger economy and that is what the working class depend on in urban areas.

I wonder if the Rural Republican folk realise how much of subsidy they get from the Democratic Urban folk! fishing stir



quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
Minnesota does have its own strange political trends... but the majority of it is centered on location of public universities and government employment.

Where those are predominantly present, the county votes democrat.

Only one exception this year was Cook county, which is still strongly labor Union (what was called the iron range, and has been economically depressed since manufacturing was gutted in the US).

From my point of view, who cares why the Dems don’t do well in rural America (as a conservative, I can dang well understand it); what I don’t get is why urban areas vote so strongly democrat?

Free stuff is all well and good, and explains some things; but if that was the only issue, the GOP would have done well this cycle with Trump giving everyone the stimulus check.

Why do the urban areas seem to predicate to the Democrats?


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10702 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Dulltool17:
Wait, there's more:
https://www.westernjournal.com..._campaign=manualpost


Thats an interesting article. At least some are concerned that moving too far from centre politics could be a long term looser.
 
Posts: 1321 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Naki, the party of entitlement?

Hardly.

The lower tax rates for investments get continued by the Democrats as well- they may raise marginal rates across the board, but capital gains will remain. If you have low income, your taxes (rate wise) are lower than the capital gains for the rich.

We have put a tax write off in for student loans... except if you are successful. (If you make what the average professional graduate makes, you are exempt from the deduction as you make too much...)

As to that canard of 70% to 30%, it doesn't look quite so odd when you realize that Biden took around 60% of the electoral votes, and he took high population states predominantly (I bet he won the states of more than 70% of the population... and even with what you think of the "rich", income follows population- its why taxing the high earners more heavily doesn't fundamentally improve the budget deficit...)

As to subsidy, infrastructure is required for space. You need more roads in farm country than in urban areas, even if the miles traveled per mile of road is higher in the city.

I don't get why urbanites want to tax everyone else for things they want (Ice rinks for the hockey moms is common here...) because you will pay for it regardless, it makes more sense for you to pay for it directly and have some say in how/where it is made and utilized as opposed to working through the inefficiency that is government.

I don't get why the cities insist on telling everyone else what to do, to the point that almost all of them want to leave (to the suburbs or to a hobby farm) yet when they get there, they want to place the same regulatory bodies back in place with the misguided thought that they are smarter, so it will be done right THIS time.
 
Posts: 6220 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

We have been through this many times.

Republicans are the Party of entitlement.

The rich get all the tax cuts. They get the lower tax rate for investments. Why should someone investing in their own self improvement not get the same low tax rate as a Wall Street speculator?

Remember the kicking McConnell got from Cumo regarding subsidies and who pays for whom?

It has already been pointed out that Biden got the votes from states that contribute 70% to GDP and the Trump states contribute 30% to GDP. A huge chunk of that would be Texas.

Urban areas have larger economy and that is what the working class depend on in urban areas.

I wonder if the Rural Republican folk realise how much of subsidy they get from the Democratic Urban folk! fishing stir



quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
Minnesota does have its own strange political trends... but the majority of it is centered on location of public universities and government employment.

Where those are predominantly present, the county votes democrat.

Only one exception this year was Cook county, which is still strongly labor Union (what was called the iron range, and has been economically depressed since manufacturing was gutted in the US).

From my point of view, who cares why the Dems don’t do well in rural America (as a conservative, I can dang well understand it); what I don’t get is why urban areas vote so strongly democrat?

Free stuff is all well and good, and explains some things; but if that was the only issue, the GOP would have done well this cycle with Trump giving everyone the stimulus check.

Why do the urban areas seem to predicate to the Democrats?


Naki, you do realise you sabotaged your own post by including the trolling and stirring Emoji's? Effectively signalling your intent in posting.
Yes I know you dont want to talk with me anymore. That doesn't stop me pointing out the deficiencies in your argument.
 
Posts: 1321 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Shanks

You obviously have a chip on your shoulder. You are totally lost in your own single issue world and have no clue about some of the things I post or the relationships I have.

For example you do not understand the polite banter i enjoy with Doc. We never get into abusive personal attacks. We have honest debates without calling names or making nasty accusations. We often indulge in very healthy debates.

Yes I do stir and fish for fun and Doc knows it. He never reacts. He just knows that is a joke or a prank. We never cause or take offense.

You can actually learn a lot from trying to understand how we communicate politely.

If you cannot do that, then just ignore me. Your personal trolling and abuse are totally out of line.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10702 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Doc

It is really worth reading some serious social anthropology and sociology to understand the way societies evolve and institutions change.

Industrialisation is what forces people to move from rural areas and move to cities. More is done with technology and less with manual labour. More is done with skill and applied knowledge.

Things are a lot more complex and anecdotal arguments do not get anywhere.

The fact remains that rural communities need the subsidy to survive. This is true in many countries including remote parts of Australia or India. Same with remote settlements in the US or anywhere else.

I actually have a serious issue with local governments that reduce services to remote communities because of budget cuts.

Subsidies for main stream rural folk is a different issue. If the local economy is a farming one or based on forestry or fishing and is thriving, I do not see why it should be treated any different to an industrial community.

I struggle to understand why millionaire farmers should get subsidies and tax breaks that a teacher or a nurse does not get.

I have proven to you many times that the republican party is about Entitlements for the few. Trickle down theory never worked. Bush tax cuts and Trump tax cuts just went into the rich peoples' wealth portfolio. It did not go into improving the overall country.

I have posted this many times with govt charts. The super rich have no incentive to have a booming economy since they make more money during a crash or a crisis - like the GEC or Covid.



quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
Naki, the party of entitlement?

Hardly.

The lower tax rates for investments get continued by the Democrats as well- they may raise marginal rates across the board, but capital gains will remain. If you have low income, your taxes (rate wise) are lower than the capital gains for the rich.

We have put a tax write off in for student loans... except if you are successful. (If you make what the average professional graduate makes, you are exempt from the deduction as you make too much...)

As to that canard of 70% to 30%, it doesn't look quite so odd when you realize that Biden took around 60% of the electoral votes, and he took high population states predominantly (I bet he won the states of more than 70% of the population... and even with what you think of the "rich", income follows population- its why taxing the high earners more heavily doesn't fundamentally improve the budget deficit...)

As to subsidy, infrastructure is required for space. You need more roads in farm country than in urban areas, even if the miles traveled per mile of road is higher in the city.

I don't get why urbanites want to tax everyone else for things they want (Ice rinks for the hockey moms is common here...) because you will pay for it regardless, it makes more sense for you to pay for it directly and have some say in how/where it is made and utilized as opposed to working through the inefficiency that is government.

I don't get why the cities insist on telling everyone else what to do, to the point that almost all of them want to leave (to the suburbs or to a hobby farm) yet when they get there, they want to place the same regulatory bodies back in place with the misguided thought that they are smarter, so it will be done right THIS time.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10702 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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If you look at the 2016 Census.....
Rural incomes are 4% less then Urban incomes. But, Urban house costs are much higher.
The poverty level in rural areas is 13% compared to 16% in the Urban.
Doesn't seem that much different to me for a bunch of ignorant hicks.
 
Posts: 3719 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
I have posted this many times with govt charts. The super rich have no incentive to have a booming economy


Naki:

I do find your posts entertaining!
 
Posts: 1851 | Location: Utah | Registered: 23 February 2011Reply With Quote
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obviously, Nak is not familiar with the subsides going to the super-rich via
farm corporations and other entities-

or rather he conveniently ignores it


DuggaBoye-O
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Posts: 3387 | Location: TX | Registered: 03 March 2009Reply With Quote
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No farms, no food.

We aren't killing people 'out here'. That is for you city people. What do city people do for ag anyway? All I see is blame and complain. Nookie is a clear example of that.


~Ann



 
Posts: 15679 | Location: The LOST Nation | Registered: 27 March 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Shanks

You obviously have a chip on your shoulder. You are totally lost in your own single issue world and have no clue about some of the things I post or the relationships I have.

For example you do not understand the polite banter i enjoy with Doc. We never get into abusive personal attacks. We have honest debates without calling names or making nasty accusations. We often indulge in very healthy debates.

Yes I do stir and fish for fun and Doc knows it. He never reacts. He just knows that is a joke or a prank. We never cause or take offense.

You can actually learn a lot from trying to understand how we communicate politely.

If you cannot do that, then just ignore me. Your personal trolling and abuse are totally out of line.


Except that the themes you suppose in that reply, are the exact same themes you put too the rest of us all ready. The ones you won't back up with evidence. You dont get to keep going with the same tired mantras, by choosing to ignore someone who has asked you for evidence, and then choosing to deposit the same opinion on someone else who you feel will play by your rules.
I dont feel you are naive enough not to realise that repeat posting in a thread where those that disagree with you are all ready engaged Is not trolling.

Yes, I do right now have a chip on my shoulder. Its your insidious method of implying fault in others to deflect from your own poor form and fault of reply. Your condescension and your method of crying foul at any perceived insult while dishing out passive aggressive insult when you wish. Your refusal to back up statements and opinion with evidence even when asked too while insisting that evidence is there or easy to find.
Even this childish ignore thing, is a sign of your inability to use forums such as this in a healthy manor.
Sulking off when you don't get your way.
Yes that response was partly a troll on my part. It was exactly designed to get you to respond when you said you would not. But it was a troll containing truth. And it was designed to point out the silliness of your statement to stop engaging, when one short paragraph would have you straight back engaging again.
 
Posts: 1321 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by theback40:
If you look at the 2016 Census.....
Rural incomes are 4% less then Urban incomes. But, Urban house costs are much higher.
The poverty level in rural areas is 13% compared to 16% in the Urban.
Doesn't seem that much different to me for a bunch of ignorant hicks.


And thats part of the nuance that is not being recognised enough in this topic. Some of the distortion that needs recognising. Its the same here, a plumber or lawyer in Auckland will need a higher income to make the same level of living standard as a Plumber or lawyer in my local town when the cost of a house in Auckland averages 1 million, and the cost of a house in Otorohanga is 350,000
 
Posts: 1321 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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You have been abusive and insulting. You condone and even approve of racist attacks and make accusation with no evidence.

You have not given one shred of evidence to support all the accusations you have made. When and where have I made a bigoted statement? You get upset about the fact that rural people are less educated. That is not a value judgement but a demographic fact. Just statistics. That is all. That has a correlation to political views and social dynamics. All this is long established.

You do not even understand what real left wing ideology is. You are caught up with the crap here from American jingoism that anything that is not Far right is Communist or Socialist.

Regarding repeat postings - the whole history of ARPF is full of repeat postings. Same conflict of ideologies repeated again and again. Your chip on the shoulder and your intolerance has grown into this hateful spite. In such a short time on this forum you have won the championship of personal attacks.

I will NOT respond with similar offensives conduct & personal attacks. If you chose to get offended by my genuine, honest & factual posts, that is a reflection of YOUR limitations.

What if I told you that a lot of what I post comes from actually studying the stuff? I have seen the response here for 10+ years. The immediate retort is to discredit my education, place of study, personal intellect etc. I have learned that any attempt to debate point by point when there is hateful attack involved is a waste of time. The moment I realised that you had blinkers on one issue and had zero understanding of the complex wider social issues of ALL people, I stopped trying. Now if you claim that is bigotry, my response is that you need to go check the dictionary for correct meaning and vocabulary!

What you do not know about is the various PMs I get in support.

If you want to know more about how the current American Right wing ideology has become main stream, just read about its growth since the 1980s. Read about how the Heritage foundation and its various tentacles (over 2000 of them) have been established over the last 30 years to create this big body of fake universities, fake studies, fake research and fake charities that keep cross referencing and try to claim credibility for right Wing dogma. Britebart etc are part of that movement. Now you have QAnon and much more

Just remember that Fox news was started in 1996 or so. Now the Far right is not happy and want to compete with Fox. Trump will start something even more rabid.

All these loonies will vote Republican. The rest of the 74 million will become associates of such loons.

Sadly you seem to have joined them.



quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Shanks

You obviously have a chip on your shoulder. You are totally lost in your own single issue world and have no clue about some of the things I post or the relationships I have.

For example you do not understand the polite banter i enjoy with Doc. We never get into abusive personal attacks. We have honest debates without calling names or making nasty accusations. We often indulge in very healthy debates.

Yes I do stir and fish for fun and Doc knows it. He never reacts. He just knows that is a joke or a prank. We never cause or take offense.

You can actually learn a lot from trying to understand how we communicate politely.

If you cannot do that, then just ignore me. Your personal trolling and abuse are totally out of line.


Except that the themes you suppose in that reply, are the exact same themes you put too the rest of us all ready. The ones you won't back up with evidence. You dont get to keep going with the same tired mantras, by choosing to ignore someone who has asked you for evidence, and then choosing to deposit the same opinion on someone else who you feel will play by your rules.
I dont feel you are naive enough not to realise that repeat posting in a thread where those that disagree with you are all ready engaged Is not trolling.

Yes, I do right now have a chip on my shoulder. Its your insidious method of implying fault in others to deflect from your own poor form and fault of reply. Your condescension and your method of crying foul at any perceived insult while dishing out passive aggressive insult when you wish. Your refusal to back up statements and opinion with evidence even when asked too while insisting that evidence is there or easy to find.
Even this childish ignore thing, is a sign of your inability to use forums such as this in a healthy manor.
Sulking off when you don't get your way.
Yes that response was partly a troll on my part. It was exactly designed to get you to respond when you said you would not. But it was a troll containing truth. And it was designed to point out the silliness of your statement to stop engaging, when one short paragraph would have you straight back engaging again.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10702 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Ok, here are examples of your bigotry. And a definition of bigotry as well.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigotry

"Most Farmers the world over seem to be an entitled and whining lot. They want subsidies, no agricultural income tax, no regulation on polluting streams and water ways. They want the government and other tax payers to hold them up.

And then they vote for bigotry, racism, slavery, corruption, misogyny and worse.

All the whining and whinging from farmers is worse than all the pig farms in the country! stir "

"It is well documented on ARPF that I am a born again Christian. Yes, baptised, former elder of my church etc. I am just not an "EVANGELICAL" like the American, Republican "cultural Christians" who claim Christian values but do not practice the basic teachings of Christ.

I have posted many times that Jesus was a Liberal, Radical Revolutionary who criticised the "religious" leaders and those who treated the poor badly. Jesus was even criticised by the local leaders for keeping company with sinners. Jesus forgave prostitutes, tax collectors, thieves and even a murderer who repented.

I have posted the below article before. I even started a good thread on it a while back. A lot of that article also addresses Rural culture and Southern culture in the US.

https://www.politicalorphans.c...icalism-is-so-cruel/

The core facts and arguments in this article are very relevant.

It is a fact that many Republicans fall into that group of "Evangelicals". Some are White supremacists who claim that position on Biblical interpretations! Until 1996 the Southern Baptist Church & even the Mormons (note sure about date) had an official theology that the Blacks did not have a soul or that they were the decedents of the murderer Cain and that they carried the cursed mark of Cain! THAT is the bigotry institutionalised for centuries and used to dehumanise people. Same with the Calvinist Church during Apartheid. That is not real Christian teaching or values but the same people still claim to be Evangelicals."

Im getting sick of your misrepresentations. As for condoning attacks on you. I said quite clearly I would not use such language myself. What I said was I understand why you get those attacks, and that you cause such vitriol though your own actions. And I stand by that.Its just sad that you can not see your own failings that cause such.

As for the rest. if you had have bothered to read the report I posted from homeland security, you would have seen in 2011, that they signalled the new threat to be Antifa. And I have stated that both the extreme left and right have issues. But in all honesty the only reason we are talking about the extremes is because thats where you have taken it. This is part of the frustration. The thread was about why the left doesn't understand the right. it was not a blame the right proposition and any small mind can take the worst from any group and hold it up as an example of why all are bad. Yet nearly half the population of the states votes right and that characterisation does not fit.

Naki, my short time on this forum started back in 2008. I have seen you in action in all that time. I understand well the situation. Over the years I have chosen to comment where and when I like. That i have by and large chosen to bypass interaction with you here was largely because it wasn't worth it. I also dont tend to involve myself in other countries politics in an accusatory manor. In fact I once brought up this subject sitting with you in my house with a beer, and said I did not think it was worth my while to get involved in these sort of spats and politely suggested that maybe you had an issue in how you dealt with such conversations.
I entered this one because your base allegation against rural communities was Bigoted and biased and that you chose to see that as offensive and choosing to start your games with me has ramped that up.

This
"All these loonies will vote Republican. The rest of the 74 million will become associates of such loons.

Sadly you seem to have joined them."

Is bigotry It takes no account of all the real reasons 74 million people chose a political party. Ordinary people who have an opinion of what is best for them, thats different from yours.
The last bit is the aggressive nature of your posting that gets reactions.
You take honesty with offence, and reply with put downs. Now I know at this stage in the discussion I am guilty of facilitating that and Im not going to complain or cry that you said something mean to me. Because i could have chosen some of my language in the last posts better. I do stick by the comments though that if you are so often in this type of discussion, you should look at why- and saying its because everyone else is wrong or loons or whatever is just blindness.
 
Posts: 1321 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Shanks

You are cherry picking out of context.

Regarding my loon comment - yes the Alt right and the White supremacists and the neo nazis are loons. Trump and his team who pander to them are loons. The guys who spew hate and abuse here are loons. The guy who has been trolling me for 5 years without any debate but just posting hate and abuse is a loon. No decent human being would behave in such a manner or support such behaviour.

That is the core 30% that is Trumps base and so the rest of the Republican party are now held to ransom. In that sense - the 74 million you refer to are either loons or are being swayed and manipulated by loons. Just like the people who voted Hitler to power.

It is a fact that most farmers think they are entitled to tax breaks and subsidies. Yes they do whinge and whine about how the government does nothing for them and it always somebody's fault. Just like you do sometimes. The context is that I was replying in a particular tone to another ridiculous post. I have worked in farming and horticulture for at least 15 years and know a bit about this. Industrial farming is a bit different though as the contract farmers moan about the corporates.

Same with my post on my faith. It was in response to your post accusing me of prejudice against religious people. You also brought race into that allegation and I chose to ignore it. You made allegations without any basis or knowledge but just spewing.

This just shows your total lack of perspective (or dishonesty?).

Instead of debating the issues and points, you start personal attacks like so many other here.

Just show me one liberal person here on ARPF who spews hate or uses abusive language.

You are so supportive of the Right and yet you agree that Trump is an idiot or worse. But then you start name calling anyone who has opposite views.

If you had even a little bit of objectivity, you would know from hard evidence that Biden is closer in his views to Raegan as was Obama and Clinton. I call all of them RINOS in jest. There is no true "Left" in American main stream politics. Even Bernie is right of most European leaders.

Both Biden and Harris were staunch supporters of the Criminal Justice horror that the US faces now. They are now walking it back. Even Trump supported the reform. Long way to go still.

That is how complex the situation is.

Coming back to the OP, I still stand by my earlier posts on lower levels of diversity, more isolated and exclusive communities and less education being the characteristics of rural voters.

The problem with the OP is that it is too generalising. i have said this repeatedly. Rural folk vote conservative as a smallish majority. It is not like 70% in most areas. I have already pointed out that Biden won in many swing stated due to the move among rural voters. Biden won Philadelphia by a smaller % than Hillary and yet he won by a much bigger number in the state - all from Red districts that are mostly rural. Just think about that. Look at Alaska and Texas. I have posted all this before and the points have rarely been acknowledge, let alone debated in depth.

You are new to posting on ARPF. For more than 10 years I have maintained that the US needs at least one more mainstream party. That will separate the choice from the extremes and developed a more centerist political climate instead of this dysfunctional polarisation.

On a closing note - Doc butler and i have been debating for years. We rarely agree. Some times the disagreement is passionate. But we NEVER call names or indulge in personal insults & attacks. Doc also happens to get my cheeky pranks. He never gets his nickers in a twist like you do. He actually indulges in intelligent debate.

On the other hand I have deliberately wound up many loons here and had a great laugh. Some of them have been so easy to wind up.

I would just love to be able to wind up Trump. That would be a real blast!


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10702 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Naki its not out of context. ive been in this debate from early on. I can see the context. The comments you made are bigoted by definition. If you can not accept that then thats your problem. But its very clear your non acceptance of being called out is whats got us too this point. The fact you now chose to stand by those comments is an absolute indicator of bigotry.
Do you stand by your comments that farmers vote for slavery, Corruption, Misogyny and worse? Whats worse?
That comment alone is bias and bigotry.And it is highly offensive! Because the rational person knows no matter why any sane person votes for who they do, has nothing to do with such issues and everything to do with what they feel is best for themselves, or their family and most likely the country.
And Im not going to let you get away with twisting shit.
Your post on your faith was a, my faith is better than theirs because .... evil. It was another bigoted offering. And You have misunderstood My question to you, that seems to have upset you. It was aimed at the farmers quote of yours. Not religion as such. the tone of those comments very closely resembles your comments on farmers.


"4. Summed up by this quote. "Liberals think that bible- believing southerners are ignorant, backward, rednecks, losers, They think we're racist, sexist, homophobic and maybe fat."

How many of those Types of cliches have you thrown in to this discourse Naki? they certainly seem familiar."

Heres a contradiction in your latest post.

"Just show me one liberal person here on ARPF who spews hate or uses abusive language."
You do Naki, and you admitted it yourself in the same post.


"On the other hand I have deliberately wound up many loons here and had a great laugh. Some of them have been so easy to wind up."

Deliberately inviting and creating hate. Abusive language included. Creating animosity by winding up people who are not on friendly terms with you or that you disagree with. That my friend, is Hate.
 
Posts: 1321 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Shanks- holding a mirror up in front of Naki is wasted effort.


Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 6562 | Location: Retired and on the road, baby! | Registered: 15 October 2013Reply With Quote
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You are probably right.
 
Posts: 1321 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
farmers vote for slavery, Corruption, Misogyny and worse?


Shanks

Again you miss the context. It is American mostly.

If you read a bit of history you will know very soon that the US Civil War was started around slavery. Much after the war, the Confederated tried to sanitise it by claiming that it was about state right.

That Civil War was largely driven by the farmers & plantation owners.

That core foundation still continues in the US. The same regions objected to getting rid of the Confederate flag.

In NZ you know our history a lot better, or should. You know that in the past it was mostly rural areas that had anti Maori sentiments. Look at the history of our politics. Maori mostly were on the Left while past National leaders often stoked anti Maori sentiment - like Don Brash during my time. I know that you personally do not fit in that slot. far from it. I know how your community lives ( a bit) and I know that you personally serve that community with many Maori in a commendable way. My comment was broadly at the right wing parties and groups.

Back to the US. Trump and many of his group are racists and misogynists. Very poor representation of minorities or women in his administration. republicans ALWAYS oppose equal pay for women. Poll stats and demographics show us the same. We do not see the same problems to the same extent in NZ. We are far more diverse and egalitarian.

Was the language & tone of my statement inflammatory? yes. Was the core essence of my point valid? Absolutely.

Just look at the neo nazi and white supremacists supporting Trump. THAT is the "worse". Did you know that such sentiments and groups are also getting established in NZ? Small but they are here. Why do decent people vote along side such dregs of society? Would you call a person or a party that panders to such groups as a core base a credible party or credible people?

You will not understand somethings. When the Christchurch shooting happened, I was devastated for many reasons. I was in shock for days. Mainly because the innocence of NZ had been attacked by this right wing evil from overseas. I have a lot of faith in our country and its people. But another thought kicked me in the guts. If I had been walking along the street in Christchurch with my family at that time, we would all be dead!

Again - you are missing the context AND the perspective.

When I tell you that I have studied this stuff, i mean it.

In the 1970s, the main right wing academic schools of thought centered around defending Capitalism, defending colonialism and perpetuating a colonial view of "third world" countries.

In the last 50 years you have more than 2000 fake "universities", think tanks, "research organisations" etc. who have spent trillions in amassing a huge body of so called research and talking points that are Right wing BS. They have been cross referencing each other for 50 years to make it look credible. Now you see all these politicians referring to such fake BS from heritage foundation, Britebart and QAnon as valid facts! An entire generation has been brought up on this!

I find that vile and evil. Unfortunately 74 ,million people voted for that side without understanding the deep core foundations and values involved.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10702 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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More like that 75 million or so don’t buy in to your definition of us...

Are there some neo nazis and such around? Yes.

Are they a significant number?

No.

Just like the violent antifa types are not a majority of Democrats, even if a lot of them sympathize with some of Antifa’s points. But I am willing to wager they vote as much or more democrat as the neo nazis vote GOP.
 
Posts: 6220 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
quote:
farmers vote for slavery, Corruption, Misogyny and worse?


That Civil War was largely driven by the farmers & plantation owners.


Banks. Don't forget about the banks.


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
 
Posts: 12151 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
quote:
farmers vote for slavery, Corruption, Misogyny and worse?


That Civil War was largely driven by the farmers & plantation owners.


Comparing the farmers of 2020 with those of 1860...
This does wonders to bolster your argument.


Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member

 
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