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There you go! Penis envy again! You must have really small hands. rotflmo

The day you start to engage in descent and polite debate, you just might be taken seriously.

As long as you abuse, insult and spread hate, you will be nothing!

quote:
Originally posted by theback40:
This is always you MO naki.
First you post how a mechanic is listed as higher education by the gov. Then higher ed. only counts if you are a heart surgeon.
You are a deceitful little prick that cant stay on your own topic when you are being shown what as ass you are.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10713 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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There is not one thing I envy about you naki.
I tried to debate you a couple years ago.
I called you out on things you said, just like above posts, you changed your story to cover your ass. I pointed that out, then you got nasty with me....first, I only pointed out where you were wrong and why.
It was then I knew you don't want to debate, only preach your version of things.
So, on your starting of things, I have no problem calling you what you are.
How could anyone envy someone who fled their own country. You are either a coward or a whore.
 
Posts: 3728 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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pissers

QUOTE]Originally posted by theback40:
There is not one thing I envy about you naki.
I tried to debate you a couple years ago.
I called you out on things you said, just like above posts, you changed your story to cover your ass. I pointed that out, then you got nasty with me....first, I only pointed out where you were wrong and why.
It was then I knew you don't want to debate, only preach your version of things.
So, on your starting of things, I have no problem calling you what you are.
How could anyone envy someone who fled their own country. You are either a coward or a whore.[/QUOTE]


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10713 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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So to add some input from a kiwi farmer who has visited Farms and talked with rural folk from Sweden, Germany, Australia and The US. Who has on his farm; Trained teachers, A business person of the year award winner, a ex senior police officer with law papers, A board member of one of the countries premier Hunting and conservation organisations and a technician who built high value parts for military vehicles.
And who has hosted around 200 mostly young urban backpackers with an interest in where thier food comes from. And who has as neighbours; Carpenters, mechanics, Multi millionaire business men, third and forth generation farmers, Teachers, secondary business owners, veterinarians. Just to name the ones I can think of.
The main, Core reason's rural people vote right/conservative, is because they are business owners who have a higher understanding and take more thought in the political process, and understand how it effects them.
This is what I have seen here worldwide. The policies coming from the left that effect us are generally well intentioned, but lack an understanding of the realities of implementation and effects. In short they are feel good measures that do not impact those who wish them implemented, but are extremely costly and unwieldy or impractical on those of us who have to implement them.
The left also does not understand the culture of rural communities and I feel, seeks to deny its relevance in its bid to push its own beliefs on those communities. I see it the world over.
 
Posts: 1335 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
So to add some input from a kiwi farmer who has visited Farms and talked with rural folk from Sweden, Germany, Australia and The US. Who has on his farm; Trained teachers, A business person of the year award winner, a ex senior police officer with law papers, A board member of one of the countries premier Hunting and conservation organisations and a technician who built high value parts for military vehicles.
And who has hosted around 200 mostly young urban backpackers with an interest in where thier food comes from. And who has as neighbours; Carpenters, mechanics, Multi millionaire business men, third and forth generation farmers, Teachers, secondary business owners, veterinarians. Just to name the ones I can think of.
The main, Core reason's rural people vote right/conservative, is because they are business owners who have a higher understanding and take more thought in the political process, and understand how it effects them.
This is what I have seen here worldwide. The policies coming from the left that effect us are generally well intentioned, but lack an understanding of the realities of implementation and effects. In short they are feel good measures that do not impact those who wish them implemented, but are extremely costly and unwieldy or impractical on those of us who have to implement them.
The left also does not understand the culture of rural communities and I feel, seeks to deny its relevance in its bid to push its own beliefs on those communities. I see it the world over.


Excellent!! ^^^^^^^^
 
Posts: 1855 | Location: Utah | Registered: 23 February 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
So to add some input from a kiwi farmer who has visited Farms and talked with rural folk from Sweden, Germany, Australia and The US. Who has on his farm; Trained teachers, A business person of the year award winner, a ex senior police officer with law papers, A board member of one of the countries premier Hunting and conservation organisations and a technician who built high value parts for military vehicles.
And who has hosted around 200 mostly young urban backpackers with an interest in where thier food comes from. And who has as neighbours; Carpenters, mechanics, Multi millionaire business men, third and forth generation farmers, Teachers, secondary business owners, veterinarians. Just to name the ones I can think of.
The main, Core reason's rural people vote right/conservative, is because they are business owners who have a higher understanding and take more thought in the political process, and understand how it effects them.
This is what I have seen here worldwide. The policies coming from the left that effect us are generally well intentioned, but lack an understanding of the realities of implementation and effects. In short they are feel good measures that do not impact those who wish them implemented, but are extremely costly and unwieldy or impractical on those of us who have to implement them.
The left also does not understand the culture of rural communities and I feel, seeks to deny its relevance in its bid to push its own beliefs on those communities. I see it the world over.


Outstanding!


Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 6579 | Location: Retired and on the road, baby! | Registered: 15 October 2013Reply With Quote
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Egomaniacs like Nookie and Mitchell wouldn't survive a week in an apocalypse. At least they will die with 'degrees'. barf


~Ann



 
Posts: 15687 | Location: The LOST Nation | Registered: 27 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Shankspony, you spelled it out perfectly whether it's NZ or here in the USA.
I have dealt with the cost of the well meaning Dem policies myself.
Thankyou for such a well said post.
 
Posts: 3728 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by theback40:
Sure, rural areas have no teachers, mechanics, electricians etc.
We just sit in our caves and rub sticks together hoping for fire to start.
Keep talking Naki, you sound dumber all the time.


animal The moron couldn't possibly get any dumber!


.
 
Posts: 38331 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Opus1:
Naki I'm mildly curious - how many years have you/did you live in the US?


None! We wouldn't let the moron in! We already had our quota of idiots! animal

But he did stay in a Holiday Inn one time.... rotflmo
 
Posts: 38331 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have lived on earth for 64 years which is a lot more than you have.

My understanding of global issues is far greater than any narrow minded, parochial & prejudiced Right wing GOP troll. I have actually studied the US constitution and its Political economy and passed a degree on the subject.

That includes those who claim to be PH in Namibia or Investment experts! Wink

BTW your personal attacks and insults have lowered your moral and intellectual standing to the level of zero! rotflmo


quote:
Originally posted by Opus1:
Naki I'm mildly curious - how many years have you/did you live in the US?


64 years? I think you mean one years experience 64 times!!!!!

What an imbecile!

.
 
Posts: 38331 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by 788:
quote:
Originally posted by theback40:
As my father in law is a DC appeals court judge
there is nothing Naki can come up with that I don't know more about then him as far as the constitution.

But he learned about it in school! That makes it more valid than your knowledge. I've crossed paths with a few folks that know my business better than I do because they had a degree. Me, I'm just a dumbass that's been doing it for 40 years, what the heck do I know?


Not only did he learn about it in schools.....he learned about it in third world schools..... Roll Eyes
 
Posts: 38331 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by theback40:
This is always you MO naki.
First you post how a mechanic is listed as higher education by the gov. Then higher ed. only counts if you are a heart surgeon.
You are a deceitful little prick that cant stay on your own topic when you are being shown what as ass you are.


jumping

So true!
 
Posts: 38331 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Cowardly bully

Not one valid point to debate. Just name calling and bullying.

Pure Trumpkin barf


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10713 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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For those who want to debate this seriously .... with a spec of decency .....

There are many complex issues involved in this and it require honesty and some brains to understand them. Wink

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/1...blicans-economy.html

First of all the OP has a lot of limitations. It fails to recognise the following

1. Biden won in districts that control 70% of US economy
2. Democrats may not win many rural districts but they still get reasonable support. It is NOT a zero sum game here. I have already shown that Biden won mostly as a result of the trend change in rural Red districts in Pennsylvania
3. In most other Red states, Biden still got plenty of votes. In Alaska he got over 40%, Texas over 45%.
4. There are plenty of small business owners in rural areas who vote liberal
5. There are plenty of small business owners in Urban areas who understand business - hence the 70% in point 1 above
6. This is a hunting forum - so you will find a lot more of rural or semi rural people posting here. The opinions here do not reflect wider reality. Or trump would have won by 80%!

rotflmo


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10713 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Now if there is anyone out there who has the intellect and honesty to debate the above linked article - let us hear it.






1. Who are the people impacted by the TOTAL economy & have greater impact on the GDP?
2. Where is the education and skill base used more? (let us try this one again! Wink )

The OP and many others fail to recognise the parochial and closed mindset of most rural folk around the world.

Perfectly good decent folk are often very closed in their outlook. That 30% of the GDP is their whole world and that is all they care about!

AND THEY THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL. Just look at the emotional outburst from the Trumpkins here and in the streets.

Back to the OP - ..........


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10713 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Naki, your graphs kind of prove the point of the Op and still the question is there.
Rural states and counties came out in support of the right by a margin. While urban states and counties as a generalisation came out for the left by a margin. Both this and the last election were close despite as you say the majority of population and GDP being contained in the urban areas.
The rest of your reply kind of proves the point I made about the left not understanding the rural communities and denying their relevance. You kind of prove you sit in that camp with the dismissiveness of your reasoning. The article you link too, says as much. If democrats dont try to understand rural communities, this deadlock will continue with unhealthy results. Looking down on those communities, as you have done, is part of the problem.
 
Posts: 1335 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Shanks

Some of your comments are valid and others are totally off. You are cherry picking the parts that suit your narrative and ignoring or mis-speaking about the rest.

Firstly I do not look down on rural communities. I have been part of rural communities most of my life as I have said before. I actually love and prefer rural communities - once the ice is broken and we get to know each other. Not just NZ but in a couple of other countries I have been to AND in fact many many language groups of rural folk I have met. You just don't get it.

The converse to your assertions are even more true. Most rural folk do not have a clue how the rest of the country or the world works. They do not respect the fact that they are actually subsidised by urban centres. Agricultural subsidies and agri tax exemptions are examples - they vary from country to country. BTW I am only stating a fact and not professing any judgement.

One major point I made has been ignore or sidestepped. Biden won because of the swing in Red districts. Another point missed is the fact that there are actually quite a few Democrats in so called Red states and districts! They are an active part of all those communities.

Once again - the OP is very one sided and completely ignore the other facts and hence it makes WRONG conclusions like you do. The Right may have a majority but are no way an absolute land slide majority in most rural areas.

Regarding the social issues - The horrible divide and polarisation can only be bridged by HONESTY. At the moment it is all lies, hatred and one eyed prejudice.

The Republican Party has been hijacked by a career criminal and no one has the guts to stand up to him for fear of his 30% hard core base.

AND we have not even touched demographics and diversity - another divisive issue with no HONESTY from the Right.

BTW - the two articles that the two charts are from - both quote govt records regarding education levels that I posted about earlier . What was the response? Just hateful spewing, personal insults & lies!

So much for intelligent honest & civil debate.

quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
Naki, your graphs kind of prove the point of the Op and still the question is there.
Rural states and counties came out in support of the right by a margin. While urban states and counties as a generalisation came out for the left by a margin. Both this and the last election were close despite as you say the majority of population and GDP being contained in the urban areas.
The rest of your reply kind of proves the point I made about the left not understanding the rural communities and denying their relevance. You kind of prove you sit in that camp with the dismissiveness of your reasoning. The article you link too, says as much. If democrats dont try to understand rural communities, this deadlock will continue with unhealthy results. Looking down on those communities, as you have done, is part of the problem.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10713 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Shanks

Some of your comments are valid and others are totally off. You are cherry picking the parts that suit your narrative and ignoring or mis-speaking about the rest.

Firstly I do not look down on rural communities. I have been part of rural communities most of my life as I have said before. I actually love and prefer rural communities - once the ice is broken and we get to know each other. Not just NZ but in a couple of other countries I have been to AND in fact many many language groups of rural folk I have met. You just don't get it.

Really? Care to explain this statement? And why it was so broad and why its what you think?

quote:
Most Farmers the world over seem to be an entitled and whining lot. They want subsidies, no agricultural income tax, no regulation on polluting streams and water ways. They want the government and other tax payers to hold them up.

And then they vote for bigotry, racism, slavery, corruption, misogyny and worse.

All the whining and whinging from farmers is worse than all the pig farms in the country! stir


The converse to your assertions are even more true. Most rural folk do not have a clue how the rest of the country or the world works. They do not respect the fact that they are actually subsidised by urban centres. Agricultural subsidies and agri tax exemptions are examples - they vary from country to country. BTW I am only stating a fact and not professing any judgement.

On this my friend, you are completely, utterly wrong. And only further shows you are unable to discuss this topic without showing your bigotry and bias. Maybe those subsidies and tax breaks are part of a countries recognition of the importance to the nations wellbeing of maintaining a healthy food production system. Ill give some examples. Sweden and Norway. They have incentives to farm animals to prevent further land from being turned into forestry because its recognised a country needs to provide its own food. Germany, some incentives are placed on breaking up crops into more species rather than mono cropping because of the advantages to the general population of that, and recognising that the famers could make more from the highest earning individual crops.

One major point I made has been ignore or sidestepped. Biden won because of the swing in Red districts. Another point missed is the fact that there are actually quite a few Democrats in so called Red states and districts! They are an active part of all those communities.

But it wasn't a huge swing. Trump maintained a strong vote. And there was still a respectable level of votes in urban areas for trump. Yes Biden won. we all agree on that. And if a better candidate had been put forward, the democrats might have won by more, against a republican candidate who was pretty poor, so its no surprise. But in respect to this argument, it still shows there is a huge block of america... Close to half that are disenfranchised by the left and so the ops question is still valid.

Once again - the OP is very one sided and completely ignore the other facts and hence it makes WRONG conclusions like you do. The Right may have a majority but are no way an absolute land slide majority in most rural areas.

Was the left a landslide in urban areas? Blue states- Washington- 40%trump,Oregon 40%trump, Nevada 47% Trump, Even california 34% trump, Minnesota, 45% trump. And thats leaving out the very close swing states. You make no point with that line of argument.

Regarding the social issues - The horrible divide and polarisation can only be bridged by HONESTY. At the moment it is all lies, hatred and one eyed prejudice.

I find it ironic you chose to highlight honesty.

The Republican Party has been hijacked by a career criminal and no one has the guts to stand up to him for fear of his 30% hard core base.

AND we have not even touched demographics and diversity - another divisive issue with no HONESTY from the Right.

BTW - the two articles that the two charts are from - both quote govt records regarding education levels that I posted about earlier . What was the response? Just hateful spewing, personal insults & lies!

Maybe you should look at how and why and what you post. I had a feeling this subject would come up, so on purpose today I have posted some comments in this section that offer a different opinion to the common one. And have had nothing but decent reply.

So much for intelligent honest & civil debate.

And there you go. getting in a hit at the end, and you wonder why you get the reply's you do. Go for it Naki, you are the master of your own demise.

quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
Naki, your graphs kind of prove the point of the Op and still the question is there.
Rural states and counties came out in support of the right by a margin. While urban states and counties as a generalisation came out for the left by a margin. Both this and the last election were close despite as you say the majority of population and GDP being contained in the urban areas.
The rest of your reply kind of proves the point I made about the left not understanding the rural communities and denying their relevance. You kind of prove you sit in that camp with the dismissiveness of your reasoning. The article you link too, says as much. If democrats dont try to understand rural communities, this deadlock will continue with unhealthy results. Looking down on those communities, as you have done, is part of the problem.
 
Posts: 1335 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Shanks, you are getting to see who Naki is.
He puts out an opinion. If you disagree he changes his next post. If you try and answer, he goes to the passive/aggressive stage he is with you now. In another few posts he will start with the personal attacks. He has done this same thing with me, and everyone else that tries to discuss things with him. That's why no-one likes him, and don't bother trying to talk to him and think he's a dickhead.
Rural people here, include doctors, people with PHD's, engineers and so on. They move here for the small schools, the outdoors, ski-ing, skulling,bicycling or whatever floats their boat.
Some stay after the kids are grown, some don't, others move in. Some you know how they vote, some are tight lipped about who they support. All are respected for who they are, not their beliefs.
Our average graduating class here where I went to school is 15 kids. Nobody is left behind, and a great chance to excel. When I graduated, 4 boys went into the various armed services, 3 went to college, 1 went to school to be a lineman. Those of us that went into the service came out knowing more about the world then the ones who went to college. We still have reunions of the whole class. I know more about the history and politics of the countries I hunted cartels in, then Naki ever could by reading about it. We talked to Officers, political figures and locals at every chance, to learn as much as we could. Never underestimate your enemy, they are not stupid by any means.
Anyway Shanks, you would be a wonderful person to talk to, that much is clear. I expect rural NZ is very much the same as rural anywhere in the world. Tell naki to kiss your ass, like we have when he gets nasty and keep posting for the rest of us to enjoy your thoughts.
 
Posts: 3728 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Cheers Back40,

Your description of your community sounds very familiar. Here the local primary school ( ages 5-12) has about 18 students. Many are from the generally poorer, lower socio-economic maori communities of our coast. The farmers here raise cattle that they donate to the school to fund extra learning aids. So every single kid gets a computer and because the school is on my land, I provided land for communications towers so that the school could get ultra fast internet. Now those kids regularly spend parts of thier week talking to other kids live via Skype from schools all over the world.
My local high school at Otorohanga has program where it sits down with the community business owners and identifies every kid who might not be doing so well education wise. Then finds them a job within those businesses, with training while still at school. So that nearly no young adult here leaves school without either a place at further education, university etc, or a job.

And yes you are right. I recently had the chance to sit on one of my hills with a north American service man on a hunt, and listen to his take on world policy/ war etc, and I was really grateful to get that insight.
Rural youngsters get a work ethic and self assuredness/ confidence that is not so easily gained elsewhere. They move away and train, find a job and skill they enjoy. Then often when the time is right, they move back to take over the farm or raise thier families and bring those skills back with them.
This whole idea that the reason they vote conservative is because they are uneducated is part of the misunderstanding from "intellectual elite" who do not see the reason why rural people tend to hold the views they do.
There is a real angst and frustration from the left that stems from them being unable to comprehend the reasons thier ideas do not get wider acceptance. Its dangerous and creates a harder right. And that harder right in turn creates a harder left....

Back on topic, and even those who go straight onto the land. They have to have a good understanding of everything it takes to run a business, or they don't survive. This country hick thing is a figment of the past, A bigoted view to try make oneself and ones opinions seem superior.
As for telling Naki to kiss my arse. Well I prefer to not go down to that level. I have no need too. By staying polite and leaving him to those tricks. the passive/Agressive, insults etc. I win.
Truth is I would love to sit down with almost every member of this forum like yourself and have a beer. Find areas of agreement and disagreement but at least have an understanding of another culture or community. And I have done that with Naki. Had him as a guest in my house on more than one occasion and had some great conversations. But I will not tolerate his online persona or the way he treats people and im not going to give him an inch of bad behaviour just because I know him.
 
Posts: 1335 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Very similar here Shanks. If a student has an interest in building or mechanics,electrical, plumbing and heating, they can be go to a trade school. Usually at a point they can drive themselves, so at 16 yrs old. They still have to complete math, english and other core classes too. They will be placed as an apprentice their senior year in the craft of choice, usually as a half day.
You are a better man then I Shanks, still to much warrior in me, and I love to fight. Someone like Naki, who starts a fight I would love to tear down.
My farm has won awards for a working farm/conservationship. State highways were put in back in the 40-50's with no thought to the damage they did. What used to be gentle run-off from the mountains, from the rain and snow, were funneled into culverts under the built up roadbeds. My brother and I have spent our whole life trying to correct damage done by that. Streambank restoration, from storm damage. Trees planted, berms to slow the water speed, and so on. I have been to our state capital to speak on proper placement of culverts and impervious surface runoff. It took years, but a group of us were a pain in the ass enough to get a law passed!
As rural folks we take care of our own. When covid hit, and people were out of work, I butchered 3 beef over a 3 month span to be passed amongst the needy people in town. A very simple thing, was planting squash in a large compost pile I always have cooking. This fall the church folks picked and delivered a truck full of squash to folks to eat on through the winter. Others in town helped put up peoples wood piles for winter, and all the other things rural folks do for each other. No old person ever has to worry about their drive being plowed or shoveled of snow to get out. Whoever gets to it first does it, just the way it is around here.
You know what I mean, it will be the same there.
Very nice chatting with you by the way!
 
Posts: 3728 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Yep exactly! Strangely enough The liberals try and force human decency and looking after others Onto us all, and in the process loose the very human side of it. As it becomes solely about tax and taking from the wealthy. Not realising it is much more a urban issue than a rural one.
Here i did similar. Not to your scale, as to be quite honest, 3 beef cattle is an overwhelmingly generous deed if our beef prices are anything to go by here. But i did get out the days before lockdown and kill some deer to pass around a few locals who i knew would need it at that time.
You know as you tell me a bit more about what you have done environmentally, I get pissed off. Because I know what it takes and to see the tiresome cliche of farmers polluting water ways such as Naki used, and that is so common in some circles. Well that type of talk is a big part of the divide and problem is the best i can say.
Im going to send you a PM, as it sounds really interesting what you do, and I do enjoy talking with like minded guys from other corners of the world.
 
Posts: 1335 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Ha, the one that gets me is " farmers spread fertilizer into the streams" At $400 a ton do people really think we just go along and spread it into streams!!!
Would love to talk to you more. I am a two finger search and destroy typist, so my replies will be a bit at a time. Wink
 
Posts: 3728 | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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This article put the answer to the OP question in perspective with history in the US, especially the south, and with Trump's effectiveness with such deplorable intentional divisiveness. We all knew he didn't invent it - just skillfully deployed it.

And the problem is that it still works for a mean enough demagogue fascist wannabee. This political tactic will not go away, only morph. The scary thing is that Trump wasn't smart enough to stir it to success a second time. But there are smarter demagogues, lurking, and millions of potential followers to turn this country into a snake pit. The evil seeds are in the field, just waiting like the 17 year locusts to emerge.

=================================================

The forgotten figure who explains how Trump got almost 74 million votes

3 hrs ago

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...1blnml?ocid=msedgdhp

Even as he lost the presidential election decisively, President Trump surprised many Americans by receiving close to 74 million votes — second-most in history to president-elect Joe Biden. But maybe we shouldn’t have been surprised. After all, an equally divisive figure who sounded a lot like Trump managed to win five Senate elections despite polls often showing him losing: North Carolina’s Jesse Helms.

Like Trump, Helms always found enemies. His antipathy toward the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (UNC) was so legendary that when the North Carolina legislature was debating the creation of a new state zoo, Helms purportedly commented that erecting a fence around Chapel Hill would do as a replacement. Although this story is apocryphal, it illustrates a source of Helms’s power — an enmity toward educated “elites” whom Helms’s White, rural and small city base saw as threatening their traditional Christian values and their beliefs about race. In many ways, this sentiment is also at the root of Trumpian political discourse and the president’s popularity.

Helms, who died on July 4, 2008, was media savvy and spent three decades in newspaper and broadcast journalism. But he will be remembered as a larger-than-life figure who remade the political landscape, sowing the deep polarization that Trump tapped into and reminding us that stoking prejudices and promising what he called old-fashioned values remain politically potent.

In North Carolina, the political polarization that Helms later tapped into dates to the early 20th century, when modernizers, relying on the rise of UNC as the leading Southern public university, attempted to transform the state from one of the poorest and most undereducated into a leading center of the knowledge economy and to monetize its university-based technological industries.

In a seminal 1950 Senate election, liberal UNC President Frank Porter Graham expected to win. But conservative Willis Smith defeated him in a primary runoff by stoking fears about the end of segregation, which played well with those voters who were skeptical about modernity and the liberal haven at UNC that seemed to encourage it. It was long believed that a 28-year-old Jesse Helms, who conducted opposition research for the Smith campaign, was the mastermind behind Graham’s defeat. This characterization was inflated — but it displayed the long shadow Helms cast over North Carolina politics.

Although both men were Democrats, the bitter Graham-Smith contest defined the political fissures and intense polarization of politics that would develop over the following 70 years. In 1950, the Republican Party in North Carolina was moribund — as it was throughout the South; no Republicans won statewide office between 1898 and 1972.

Yet the response to federal intervention in civil rights after the Brown v. Board decision in 1954 reinvigorated the Republican Party throughout the states of the former Confederacy. One of the beneficiaries was Helms, who switched parties in 1970 and became the most important Republican in the state for the next generation by employing the same slash-and-burn tactics that defeated Graham in 1950.

Helms helped to redefine political patterns in the state and paved the way for the attack politics so common today. In 1972, he won election to the Senate by attacking his opponent, Rep. Nick Galifianakis, for his association with liberal Democratic presidential nominee George McGovern. In an infamous political ad for Helms, the tagline said, “He’s one of us,” phrasing that suggested Helms’s opponent — the child of immigrants — was not a true North Carolinian.

Helms quickly became an architect of the modern conservative movement that culminated in Ronald Reagan’s election in 1980. He used the then-new tactic of direct mail to build a powerful national fundraising operation reliant on small donors. Helms’s war chest enabled him to flood the airwaves with attack ads, overwhelm his opponents and help allies.

In the U.S. Senate, Helms skillfully manipulated the rules to both obstruct legislation and attack the liberal establishment by forcing amendment votes and deploying slashing rhetoric. Though he had no such thing as Twitter, Helms used fights over his amendments to motivate his base in North Carolina and nationally.

Helms repeatedly managed to stave off fierce electoral challenges, most famously beating popular North Carolina Gov. Jim Hunt in 1984. The key both to Helms’s success — and the limits of his popularity — was his willingness to polarize the electorate on issues of race and culture. A longtime opponent of federal intervention in civil rights, much more than any other southern Republican, Helms aggressively used racism to rally his base in the state’s hinterlands.

A year before what pundits predicted was certain defeat at the hands of Hunt, Helms waged a lonely filibuster against federal legislation honoring the birthday of Martin Luther King Jr. Calling King a “Marxist-Leninist,” Helms failed to attract any support in the Senate. But while he overwhelmingly lost the legislative battle, just fighting it honed Helms’s appeal to rural and small-town White voters.

Similarly, in 1990, at the end of the campaign for his fourth term in the Senate against Charlotte Mayor Harvey Gantt, an African American, Helms ran the infamous “White hands” television ad — where there appeared to be a suggestive black smudge on a letter telling a White blue-collar worker that he didn’t get a job. The ad targeted affirmative action to inflame racist grievance. In the end, Helms narrowly overcame Gantt’s lead in the polls.

Helms also relied upon White evangelical Christians, who mobilized during the late 1970s, to continue narrowly winning close Senate races. The senator brokered the politicization of evangelicals by using the Senate as a conservative bully pulpit — railing about cultural liberalism on issues like school prayer, abortion and gay rights. An open opponent of LGBTQ rights, Helms embraced homophobia as a cultural issue. In particular, he used the AIDS crisis to demonize gay people and firmly opposed expanding federal research into defeating the disease.

Recalling Helms’s tactics, and his ability to last 30 years in office despite engendering deep antipathy from liberals, reshapes how we understand the Trump presidency. Helms both capitalized upon and drove the polarization that has fueled Trump’s rise. He relied on solid support from the state’s small towns and countryside. But he also attracted urban and suburban support in areas containing older industries, such as the swatch of cotton textile and furniture factories that emerged during the generation after the Civil War and went into decline after the 1970s.

By the end of the 20th century, a sharp divide separated these older industrial and agricultural areas from those driven by knowledge-based technology and finance. Today, the contrast is particularly evident in the comparison between the Raleigh-Durham megalopolis, where tech has thrived, and the hinterlands of central North Carolina, where dying manufacturing left a deindustrialized core.

It is in those hinterlands where Trump thrived, securing just enough support from a mobilized and energized base for narrow victories in both 2016 and 2020 — the same playbook Helms used. Like Trump, Helms’s margins were narrow, and his strategy depended on his fully aroused supporters. Demonizing their political enemies activated their own bases.

Helms not only used such tactics, he pioneered them. As early as the 1950s, he attacked New Deal liberalism as threatening his political supporters; in Helms’s telling, liberals and liberalism became part of urban elites’ assault on small-town and rural North Carolina and America. Helms criticized liberal “bias” in the print and broadcast media, just as Trump relies upon attacks on “fake news” to discredit journalists’ scrutiny.

While such tactics alienated the highly educated, who often caricatured Helms as a buffoon, he won fierce devotion from those rural and small-town Americans, who turned out in droves. In 2020, Trump dusted off the Helms playbook. But while it worked in North Carolina, it fell just short in other states.
 
Posts: 11679 | Location: Depends on the Season | Registered: 17 February 2017Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

From Magine Enigam's article

While such tactics alienated the highly educated, who often caricatured Helms as a buffoon, he won fierce devotion from those rural and small-town Americans, who turned out in droves. In 2020, Trump dusted off the Helms playbook. But while it worked in North Carolina, it fell just short in other states.


I don't know if America is the same but I suspect it would be and that is "the highly educated" does not inlclude the people educated in science based subjects but the low level stuff like arts, law and so on. Plenty of people are better at reading a contract than any legal bloke but the layman can't play in fields like medicine/dentistry, physics, pure mathematics, applied mathematics, engineering etc. In Australia this "science" group are not Labor or Greens voters.

The computer side is interesting but fits in with the above. As a group the people who do things like relational data bases in Access/SQL Server/Oracle and also very advanced Excel etc. are politically different to peaple playinh with iPhones amd iPads. The gap from the average person to the "expert" with iPhones and iPads is not reall that great. It can look like there is a lot of difference but does not take much for the average bloke to catch up. Totally differenct story with things like Access/SQ Server/Oracle etc.
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:



Nice piece of meat there rotflmo[/QUOTE]

If my dick got hard over something like that I would smash it with a rock tu2 dancing
 
Posts: 2135 | Location: KENAI, ALASKA | Registered: 10 November 2001Reply With Quote
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30% of GDP and wanting to control the Nation and even the rest of the world! They want to get all the subsidies from the other 70%.

This is the Entitlement attitude of the Right. They fail to see how the top 1% is leading by the nose with eyes shut.

And we still get abusive and one eyed spewing!

Go figure.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10713 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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GDP is a deflection. Democracy as its intended is about people, not income and that fact GDP is being used here is a dislike of the fact so many disagree with a political belief.

This is an interesting read and I wonder what certain individuals will choose to highlight, and also what they will ignore. So I have done a small summary.

https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu...text=polisci_honproj

1. The poor uneducated rural stereotype is misleading yet repeatedly it becomes the focus of explanation.

2. Religious belief is looked down upon as uneducated.

3. Economics is not the main driver.

4. Summed up by this quote. "Liberals think that bible- believing southerners are ignorant, backward, rednecks, losers, They think we're racist, sexist, homophobic and maybe fat."

How many of those Types of cliches have you thrown in to this discourse Naki? they certainly seem familiar.

5. Rather than economic drivers- rising incomes - social mobility and consumption has shifted primary issues to Lifestyle and Culture.


I see the same in my country- Liberal "Elite" will often talk about the importance of culture, when its the cultures they support. Yet they seek to deny or relegate cultures that dont agree with there ideals, as unimportant or lesser and ignore the communities that hold those cultural values.



From the conclusion- Which gos towards explaining my earlier comments that even in the blue states, a high percentage still voted for trump.
"One of the most interesting findings of this research is that “rural” may not be the most fitting way of thinking about these populations. The statistical portions of this study find that while there are attitudinal differences between rural and urban populations, living rurally is not a fundamental explanation for voting for Republican candidates. In fact, there are other demographic indicators that are much more robust including gender, race, and political knowledge This suggests that the common idea that rural people are conservative may be an incorrect use of an information shortcut. This research finds that conservative white men vote for Republicans, whether or not they are rural residents."
 
Posts: 1335 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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The election of 1896 was nearly the opposite.

https://www.270towin.com/1896_Election/

Smoke this bowl with a grain of salt.
My friend said he didn't leave the Republican party, it left him...


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
 
Posts: 12170 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Dulltool17:
quote:
Originally posted by shankspony:
So to add some input from a kiwi farmer who has visited Farms and talked with rural folk from Sweden, Germany, Australia and The US. Who has on his farm; Trained teachers, A business person of the year award winner, a ex senior police officer with law papers, A board member of one of the countries premier Hunting and conservation organisations and a technician who built high value parts for military vehicles.
And who has hosted around 200 mostly young urban backpackers with an interest in where thier food comes from. And who has as neighbours; Carpenters, mechanics, Multi millionaire business men, third and forth generation farmers, Teachers, secondary business owners, veterinarians. Just to name the ones I can think of.
The main, Core reason's rural people vote right/conservative, is because they are business owners who have a higher understanding and take more thought in the political process, and understand how it effects them.
This is what I have seen here worldwide. The policies coming from the left that effect us are generally well intentioned, but lack an understanding of the realities of implementation and effects. In short they are feel good measures that do not impact those who wish them implemented, but are extremely costly and unwieldy or impractical on those of us who have to implement them.
The left also does not understand the culture of rural communities and I feel, seeks to deny its relevance in its bid to push its own beliefs on those communities. I see it the world over.


Outstanding!


Yes! Very well written!


.
 
Posts: 38331 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Shanks you and Mike McGuire really see things for what they are!

beer

On me!
 
Posts: 38331 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by JTEX:
Shanks you and Mike McGuire really see things for what they are!

beer

On me!


Thanks. I don't always agree with the right. But I think I understand exactly why so many feel its their best choice, and Im frustrated that the left puts itself so far out of reach for such huge swathes of the population.
 
Posts: 1335 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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WHY, BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK THEY HAVE TO, THEY DON'T BOTHER

BECAUSE THEY HAVE MORE VOTES IN THE BIGGER CITIES...


MZEE WA SIKU
 
Posts: 25656 | Registered: 03 February 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
quote:
Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

From Magine Enigam's article

While such tactics alienated the highly educated, who often caricatured Helms as a buffoon, he won fierce devotion from those rural and small-town Americans, who turned out in droves. In 2020, Trump dusted off the Helms playbook. But while it worked in North Carolina, it fell just short in other states.


I don't know if America is the same but I suspect it would be and that is "the highly educated" does not inlclude the people educated in science based subjects but the low level stuff like arts, law and so on. Plenty of people are better at reading a contract than any legal bloke but the layman can't play in fields like medicine/dentistry, physics, pure mathematics, applied mathematics, engineering etc. In Australia this "science" group are not Labor or Greens voters.

The computer side is interesting but fits in with the above. As a group the people who do things like relational data bases in Access/SQL Server/Oracle and also very advanced Excel etc. are politically different to peaple playinh with iPhones amd iPads. The gap from the average person to the "expert" with iPhones and iPads is not reall that great. It can look like there is a lot of difference but does not take much for the average bloke to catch up. Totally differenct story with things like Access/SQ Server/Oracle etc.


You don't know what you're babbling about.
 
Posts: 3987 | Location: Anchorage, Alaska | Registered: 08 March 2013Reply With Quote
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This thread has gone all over the place. No point addressing each single post.

A lot of wrong assumptions are being made and then the hate kicks in.

Some who are new here (in terms of engaging in posts / arguments, "debates" etc.) do not understand some of the background and are making totally wrong assumptions.

It is well documented on ARPF that I am a born again Christian. Yes, baptised, former elder of my church etc. I am just not an "EVANGELICAL" like the American, Republican "cultural Christians" who claim Christian values but do not practice the basic teachings of Christ.

I have posted many times that Jesus was a Liberal, Radical Revolutionary who criticised the "religious" leaders and those who treated the poor badly. Jesus was even criticised by the local leaders for keeping company with sinners. Jesus forgave prostitutes, tax collectors, thieves and even a murderer who repented.

I have posted the below article before. I even started a good thread on it a while back. A lot of that article also addresses Rural culture and Southern culture in the US.

https://www.politicalorphans.c...icalism-is-so-cruel/

The core facts and arguments in this article are very relevant.

It is a fact that many Republicans fall into that group of "Evangelicals". Some are White supremacists who claim that position on Biblical interpretations! Until 1996 the Southern Baptist Church & even the Mormons (note sure about date) had an official theology that the Blacks did not have a soul or that they were the decedents of the murderer Cain and that they carried the cursed mark of Cain! THAT is the bigotry institutionalised for centuries and used to dehumanise people. Same with the Calvinist Church during Apartheid. That is not real Christian teaching or values but the same people still claim to be Evangelicals.

The facts are simple. Rural folk are MOSTLY part of pretty closed communities. Many do not have a passport, have not travelled much, do not live in very diverse communities, are not very familiar with immigrants etc. This is particularly true in the US and much less so in NZ. There are plenty of studies to support this including Govt statistics in the US govt publications. All one needs to do is search and find the info.

An Aussie member here already admitted that more Rural folk tend to support Pauline Hanson's One Nation party. Why?

Calling names and abusing and spewing hate is not going to change those facts.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10713 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Come on Naki. Try harder. You are still deflecting. I also recognise that my prediction on what would be chosen to be ignored was on the money...

summary of your last post:

"This thread has gone all over the place. No point addressing each single post.

A lot of wrong assumptions are being made and then the hate kicks in.

Some who are new here (in terms of engaging in posts / arguments, "debates" etc.) do not understand some of the background and are making totally wrong assumptions."

Summary:
I'll deflect and make statements to avoid loosing.

"It is well documented on ARPF that I am a born again Christian. Yes, baptised, former elder of my church etc. I am just not an "EVANGELICAL" like the American, Republican "cultural Christians" who claim Christian values but do not practice the basic teachings of Christ.

I have posted many times that Jesus was a Liberal, Radical Revolutionary who criticised the "religious" leaders and those who treated the poor badly. Jesus was even criticised by the local leaders for keeping company with sinners. Jesus forgave prostitutes, tax collectors, thieves and even a murderer who repented.

I have posted the below article before. I even started a good thread on it a while back. A lot of that article also addresses Rural culture and Southern culture in the US.

https://www.politicalorphans.c...icalism-is-so-cruel/

The core facts and arguments in this article are very relevant.

It is a fact that many Republicans fall into that group of "Evangelicals". Some are White supremacists who claim that position on Biblical interpretations! Until 1996 the Southern Baptist Church & even the Mormons (note sure about date) had an official theology that the Blacks did not have a soul or that they were the decedents of the murderer Cain and that they carried the cursed mark of Cain! THAT is the bigotry institutionalised for centuries and used to dehumanise people. Same with the Calvinist Church during Apartheid. That is not real Christian teaching or values but the same people still claim to be Evangelicals."

Summary:
I have religious belief which shapes my thought process, But others different interpretation of that belief is wrong.
Some republicans are members of that wrong religion, and some of those are racist. Ill add an opinion piece as proof.

"The facts are simple. Rural folk are MOSTLY part of pretty closed communities. Many do not have a passport, have not travelled much, do not live in very diverse communities, are not very familiar with immigrants etc. This is particularly true in the US and much less so in NZ. There are plenty of studies to support this including Govt statistics in the US govt publications. All one needs to do is search and find the info."

Summary:
Ill state something as fact without support. It will be a negative cliche. Ill tell people this information is easy to find without bothering to find and link to it myself.

"Calling names and abusing and spewing hate is not going to change those facts."

As the only person left here who is bothering to debate with you, Can you show me where I have called you names and spewed hate at you. Where are your facts? because all I see is opinion and statement. And even you are not referring to me, its been 25 odd posts since anyone but me has addressed you in any way. Why is that relevant to the topic now? why do you post that line at almost every opportunity you get?
 
Posts: 1335 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Naki is a prime example of what is wrong with the left......

So many preconceived notions that are just plain wrong. A terribly limited view on the world, tunnel vision, yet he knows the whole truth about every single thing.

The willful ignorance to me is amazing.


Like the left in general.
 
Posts: 38331 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Shanks,

I really like how your school works! Here the teachers unions have largely taken control of our urban area schools. Our vocational education is disappearing rapidly, A lot already gone!

Our high schools prepared kids for college, prison or flipping burgers at McDonalds.

Tens of millions are spent on athletic facilities and coaches, but hardly anything to prepare the non college bound for a career out of school.
 
Posts: 38331 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Thats interesting JTEX, Yes there are some good things, but like everywhere we can do better.
Too often our schools get caught in the trap of teaching what to think and not how to think.
I also recognise there maybe way too much time spent of specific topics that teach standard subjects, but not enough on life skills like the internet, or Budgeting/ saving etc. We are producing kids with some knowledge but maybe not the knowledge they need to be well prepared for life in many aspects.
 
Posts: 1335 | Location: North Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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