What does anyone think it would take in expense to begin to produce match grade bench rest quality 6mm bullets similar to Bart's, Euber, Knight's bullets? Or is that out of the question, I want to know. All I have is a Rockchucker.......r in s.

The "big dogs" in the field are the corbin brothers, Dave, corbins.com & Richard, rceco.com ... They don't agree completely. Surprise!

Richard had a set of dies for a number of calibers in a pointed jacketed bullet to use in RCBS and equivelent presses for $225.00 couple months back. $175.- per year or so back... oh well.

You could price jackets at brunoshooters.com or make them from .22 Long rifle fired cases.

The point is that this is hand work and the better the hands... [Dies and production.] No you will not get good bullets with Monkies rented from the zoo or the teenager on Dew or ??? But if you have the patience. Couple men working together in Lincoln NE, following WW II got their start this way. You may have heard their names... Joyce Hornady and Vern Speer. RCBS stands for Rock Chucker Bullet Swage. Mr. Huntington, SR., got his start making dies for making bullets (in reloading press). Hollywood? If they feel like it. luck.

quote:

Originally posted by iiranger:
The "big dogs" in the field are the corbin brothers . . .You could price jackets at brunoshooters.com or make them from .22 Long rifle fired cases. . .

With all due respect to the Corbin's who do shooters a tremendous service with their dies - I don't think you'll make Match grade bullets with their dies - and you especially won't make Match Grade bullets with 22 LR fired cases.

Is this an April Fools joke??

Ray

I once tried some hand made "match grades" with jackets made from fired 22RF cases. It wasn't April Fools Day, but they were certainly a joke.

r in s, my 308 and 6mm dies were made by Niemi. Detsch (SP?) and Niemi seem to be the leaders in the BR grade die makers. I know of no one using Corbin dies to make BR bullets. Blackmon has emerged as a great die maker but I believe he only offers steel dies as opposed to carbide.
I bought my whole set-up used, for $3000.00. It included 2 RCBS Ammo-Master presses, 1 rockchucker, a core cutter. The seller threw in some jacket lube, core lube, lead wire and jackets to get me started.

Then, not jumping into this money pit..thanks everyone! r in s.

OK. I have the whole printed out Corbin catalog set. First of all, what is the extreme opinion on making some sort of lead bullets, perhaps gas checked, in various calibers where Match grade isn't an issue? Allowing for semi-serious lower velocity shooting in .308 or smaller and bigger hard cast hunting rounds for American big game, how "good" are Corbin bullets? This does not consider expansion as in better hunting bullets or Barnes copper types. The issue is getting to the target and staying together.

Back to the complaints: Does the inability to make match grade bullets come from just Corbin dies and therefore someone else's must be used? Any specifics?

About jackets - I think Corbin offers jacket stock in the form of discs. Does this form of raw material work well enough or should someone go through the trouble of raising a tube as in pipe-making seamless stock?

Assuming disc jacket stock would work OK I assume copper is the main choice but has anyone tried any other "soft" alloys? I can't say anyone has bothered to talk about anything else so I guess copper is preferred. Of course there are military jackets and some odd types found in commercial rounds.

The cost of ammo is getting out of hand - even for gas checked cast lead lubed rounds. I too, have joked about using chopped copper wire, lead dipped, in shotgun rounds. Might work well as a cost saver and give you cheap flechette performance to boot! Shotgunners consume a huge amount of lead due to huge runs of skeet and trap practice for competitions.

In a magazine article, Handloader I think, Mr. Corbin, D, mentioned a shooter who was winning regional matches with bullets home made of rimfire jackets. This is hand work and you will not get the top quality with a monkey or hyper teenager pulling the press handle. [Do you need "match grade" bullets?]

Mr. Blackmon has started offering carbide dies in the last year or so.

Base gard... The original, by Mr. Harvey in the 1950s, was a zinc ring. You could swage bullets with the ring or Lyman made a mold where you put the ring in and cast the bullet with the ring on. As Mr. Corbin, D., points out, if the zinc ring is undersized, THIS don't WORK!

ch4d.com offers dies for this kind of bullet. Good up to 1400 fps, alledgedly. Then there is the possibility of coating the bullet in a lube too. But CH does not have zinc rings.

On ebay a Shooter's Shack offers similar dies, limited availability, BUT they have the zinc rings or claim to.

Mr. Corbin, D., has pioneered, he claims, the copper base gard disk. His books are available on his site, corbins.com, for download free so you can read about him to your hearts content... By making the copper disk dish shaped, the edge is pushed out by powder gas and better scrapes the bore... Zinc is not so flexible.

It has been suggested that the copper disk might work with the zinc dies...

I know a gun smith who explained to me, long ago, that the super cheap were buying a zinc alloy, "Zymack??" that would just melt in a commercial pot (pre LEE) and pour into molds and make a bullet that would shoot, but not expand. Alloy mostly zinc. Used in auto grills, bumpers, etc.

Other soft metals? Aluminum? Heard of aluminum oxide as in grinding stones? Abrasive. Guess what that does to your bore? Cartridge brass. .22 cases are not the only ones. .223's can be reworked into .375's without too much trouble. List is long.

Big world out there. Harv Donaldson wrote of bullets he made/used with dies he made in the beginnings of bench rest, in his .219 Don Wasp, of course... Mr. Sisk of TX made a living off rimfire case bullets by mail until GCA 68 shut him down. Some poor product by some poor makers... well either they improve or ?? You? Your bucks, your call. If you want a Stark, Berger, Euber, etc. business, then, by all means contact the Nemis and bring money, lots. luck.

iiranger

The only 22 RF cases that can be used as bullet jackets are the old copper ones. They have not been made for decades. During WW II they were about the only source of jacket material for the 22 varmint rifles but as soon as good gilding metal jackets became available, everyone switched.

If there is ANY Benchrest shooter winning matches with 22 RF jacketed bullets, I'd have to see the name to believe it.

I don't think anyone said that Corbin dies cannot make good bullets. Much of the bullets quality comes from the guy pulling the handle. But I can guaran-damn-tee you that if Match quality bullets could be produced from a $200 set of dies, that's what the guys would be using.

JMHO

Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
iiranger

The only 22 RF cases that can be used as bullet jackets are the old copper ones. They have not been made for decades. During WW II they were about the only source of jacket material for the 22 varmint rifles but as soon as good gilding metal jackets became available, everyone switched.

If there is ANY Benchrest shooter winning matches with 22 RF jacketed bullets, I'd have to see the name to believe it.

I don't think anyone said that Corbin dies cannot make good bullets. Much of the bullets quality comes from the guy pulling the handle. But I can guaran-damn-tee you that if Match quality bullets could be produced from a $200 set of dies, that's what the guys would be using.

JMHO

Ray

Ray,
The ones I tried were made from fired brass. You ccould still see the headstamp and the indent from the firing pin. They shot like crap.

While there are many things that determine what makes a "good" bullet, jacket consistancy is one of the most important. I use J4 jackets and occasionally, Sierra jackets. J4 guarantees less than .0003" runout in thickness, and 98% of the time they are right on, usually running about .0001-.0002". I realize that I'm talking about bullets that will be used in BR competition and not your average hunting/plinking bullet but, you can't make a good bullet on a bad jacket.

Pay attention: Cheechako and Eddie Herren know of what they say. They have been in the competitive game for many years as have I. For extreme accuracy your bullets need to be made from J4 jackets. A few have used Sierra bullets, but very few. Having the best equipment does not insure top quality bullets! You need to know what you are doing and understand why. You have to have a lot of guts to throw away anything that doesn't feel right when making them. Neimi dies are as good as you will find any where, but some of his dies are better than others.
Butch
www.shadetreeea.com

By the way, I have about 4 boxes of Sisk bullets left and I have given some to Cheechako. They were not made with 22rf brass.
Butch
www.shadetreeea.com

quote:

The only 22 RF cases that can be used as bullet jackets are the old copper ones. They have not been made for decades. During WW II they were about the only source of jacket material for the 22 varmint rifles but as soon as good gilding metal jackets became available, everyone switched.

I would have to say I strongly disagree with this particular statement. Brass rimfire casings make fine 22 up through 6.5mm bullets with the proper dies, and techniques.
Some people anneal them after drawing out the rim and some anneal them before drawing out the rim, but it works. I have made a bunch of them myself, and have the dies on the shelf.
Brass jacketed bullets are a little different than copper or guilding metal, they cannot be pushed as fast (about 3200fps max)and the thin rimfire cases must not be run through fast twist barrels or they will tear apart.

They can and do get made into good bullets. Not match (or benchrest) bullets but good bullets. I have measured thousands of rimfire cases for wall thickness variation, all brands except Federal, measure .0005 on average with very few over about .0008 Federals measure more like .0015, not good at all.

If a person is careful, segregates cases by Mfg. and loads in batches they can make very good shooting bullets.
If you give a monkey the best dies in the world, I'm pretty certain they will make junk.

There is a learning curve to making bullets as with any other skill.

All I ask, is do not condemn that which you are not intimately familar. Everyone has their specialty and areas of expertise, obviously bullet making is not everyone's area.

Please continue to shoot your custom hand made (from billet un-obtanium) by English monks, blessed with pixie dust, bench rest bullets.

But please do not discourage anyone from trying to make their own rimfire jacketed bullets by spouting un-truths or un-substantiated opinions. I'm sure we can all draw logical conclusions from a reasonable sample size (some statistical signifigance). One bad batch (or bad source)of rimfire jacketed bullets does not mean they are all crap.

We should encourage people to try things, who knows? They may just become the best in the world at that very thing.

Please remember, everything we write here can carry a lot of weight with the newer shooters, let's not poison their minds, with opinion. Thoughtful suggestion, tends to steer people down the right path.

Thank you for your time.
Joe

Bullet making Alert!!
Over on BR Central this morning, complete 3 die set up with Corbin equipment for .22. $900

Here is exactly what you were asking about, for sale right here in the classifieds.
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2711043/m/470107748

Joe

Joe

You are reading a lot more into my post than what I intended.

Sure, you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but why spend the time, effort, and $$$ to do it? Your post covered all of the reasons for NOT making bullets out of 22RF cases but if anyone still wants to do it, don't let me stop you.

Using 22RF cases for jackets IS NOT a new thing so I'm not discouraging experimentation. History tells us that bullet makers stopped using 22RF cases for jackets back in the 1940s for good reasons. Even for plinking or hunting bullets. It doesn't make sense to me to strive for accuracy and then handicap yourself with bullets that will never equal the the most average commercial offerings. After all, the title of this web site is "Accurate Reloading".

As far as poisoning new minds I'd rather start a new shooter on the right path than to have him experiment with proven losers, become discouraged, and abandon shooting to take up golf.

For Competition, there is not even a reason to discuss it. As I said before, if someone is winning matches with those bullets I'd like to hear their name.

Cheechako,
Perhaps you are correct and I did read too much into your post.

I think we have well covered the original question.

Thanks
Joe

quote:

Originally posted by jcunclejoe:
... Brass rimfire casings make fine 22 up through 6.5mm bullets with the proper dies, and techniques.
Some people anneal them after drawing out the rim and some anneal them before drawing out the rim, but it works. I have made a bunch of them myself, and have the dies on the shelf. ...

Hey Joe, Where does the "Firing Pin Impact" on the 22 Case end up on your final Bullets? On the bottom away from the edge of the Base?

Hello Hot Core, the firing pin strikes end up on the corner edge of the bullet base. Since firing pin strikes differ so much in shape and depth, the end result can vary widely. I have even seen some that end up with tiny pin holes where the firing pin struck. (from a sharp pin I would guess)
In most cases the firing pin strike is almost completely ironed out and is very shallow but still visible.

It does not make for a perfect base but mostly it would amount to little more than a deep scratch.

Maybe I should get a large Govt grant to study the effects of different size and shapes of firing pin strikes on rimfire jacketed bullet accuracy?

Shoot often and shoot well.
Joe

quote:

Originally posted by jcunclejoe:
...Maybe I should get a large Govt grant to study the effects of different size and shapes of firing pin strikes on rimfire jacketed bullet accuracy? ...

I'd rather see it spent on that than "ANY" of the Give Away Programs.
-----

Seems to me that many, many years ago one of my Elders Warned me about being real careful with the Bullet Base. Now it is a foggy memory, but I believe a Test was done (by the person doing the Warning and me??? maybe) by putting a "File Nick" in the Edge of the Base on some Bullets and shooting them at 500yds or so.

Perhaps the memory is goofed up, but I seem to remember it turning so-so groups into patterns way out yonder.

Anyway, ever since then I've been very careful about how the Base goes into a Neck. I even Polish the Neck with 0000SteelWool to remove any burrs. Since doing that, some of the unexplainable Group Wideners(not Fliers) seem to have been reduced.
-----

What kind of Accuracy do you get with them? And what is the distance?

Good to see you still on the Board.

quote:

Now it is a foggy memory, but I believe a Test was done . . . by putting a "File Nick" in the Edge of the Base on some Bullets and shooting them at 500yds or so. Perhaps the memory is goofed up, but I seem to remember it turning so-so groups into patterns way out yonder.

Tests like that have been done by several experimenters, the first probably being Dr Franklin Mann back at the beginning of the 20th Century. By making a small nick in the bullet base he was able to create groups with different shapes simply by orienting the nick in the proper position when seating the bullet.

I have several boxes of the "Wartime" bullets made from copper 22RF cases by Sisk, Speer, RCBS, and others. The vestiges of the firing pin indentation are very evident despite their best efforts to iron them out. It is one of the reasons those bullets were less accurate than those made by the same guys using conventional gilding metal jackets.

The photo below shows one of Ralph Sisk's bullets made from a Winchester RF case.

BTW, they did not use or recommend using the brass cased 22 RF cases because the fouling would build up and scale the bore and, unlike copper fouling, was very difficult or impossible to remove.

So, bottom line, the base of the bullet is much more important to accuracy than is the meplat. That's why Match bullets are hollow points. If you'll look at some of the most accurate Benchrest bullets you'll see that their meplat is anything but perfect and yet they will shoot tiny dots if the shooter does his part.

JMHO

Ray

I have not shot a huge number of them, mainly due to the time and effort required to make them in relation to the cost of commercial bullets. Those times and factors are changing rapidly and I am glad the die set is on the shelf.

I make a little 65gr lead tip rimfire bullet. I grabbed a light/medium load called out in the Hornady book for a 62gr bullet and loaded some up. No load testing just took the loads to the range and sighted in the 223 with them. I shot right around a 1 1/4" (10 shot) group at 100 yards and kept them all nicely in a 4" circle at 300 yards.
That is by no means stellar accuracy but for doing no load development what-so-ever, I don't think that is too bad.

The base of the bullet is indeed critical and the picture above is a very good example of a very bad firing pin strike. I would sort those out and use something else.

If the brass cased bullets are pushed too fast, over 3200, they will indeed smear brass down the barrel which is very difficult to remove. If someone can refrain from driving them at full tilt velocity, and keep them out of a 22-250 or a Swift, they can and do work very well.

They will not make match grade bullets, but then again, 99.5% of the gun owners out there can not outshoot the capabilities of their equimpent, and therefore do not require benchrest bullets. (just go to one sighting in day at the local range and take note of the number of guys happy to even hit the paper at 100 yards with their shiny new 300 whizbang)

So these little curiosities do have a place, which may see a large growth increase as the price of components continues to skyrocket.

There is only so much benchrest shooting going on, and they do us all a service in pushing the limits. But there are tens of thousands of varmint hunters and small game shooters that could do quite well with these little pills.

Joe

quote:

So these little curiosities do have a place, which may see a large growth increase as the price of components continues to skyrocket.

There is only so much benchrest shooting going on, and they do us all a service in pushing the limits. But there are tens of thousands of varmint hunters and small game shooters that could do quite well with these little pills.

Joe

Joe

Good point. One that I never considered. Who knows where the price of store bought bullets will be a year from now.

Ray

Ray, I hate to think it but components are getting way out of hand and humanity is burning up natural resources at a staggering rate. I really cannot see the price of copper ever coming down again. It (copper) will also feel greater demand as new technologies related to fuel sources expand and grow.
We may all be switching to cast bullets soon, but then the price of lead has doubled a couple of times too (and don't even mention tin).
I just hope we can keep finding ways to enjoy the shooting sports without having to spend an entire paycheck to shoot one match.

The Hornady 41-210 XTP's that my FA loves have nearly doubled in the past 5 months. Ouch.

If 22 bullets get to $20 per hundred, I will have to start annealing some of the 5 gallons of rimfire cases I have and see about working up all new loads.

After 25 years of reloading, I have never seen components come back down after a major price increase. I don't like the way things look right now.

Take care, shoot often and shoot well.
Joe

P.s. I'll be flying to Tucson tomorrow to shoot Handgun Silhouette in Tombstone on Saturday. I recon I'll be near your neck of the woods.

Thanks guys. Memories fade when you do nothing to refresh them occasionally.

Hey Joe, Best of luck at the Match.

I shot OK, but I got to introduce 3 new guys to Handgun silhouette and got a complete Tour of Tombstone from Major Golden. Not to mention seeing the OK corral and having a beer in the Famous Crystal Palace.
Made for a great trip.
Shoot often and shoot well.
Joe

Joe

Tombstone is a neat place, isn't it? Not like the movies at all.

The same thing for Lincoln County Courthouse NM where Billy the Kid was jailed, and escaped.

Sometimes I think that movies are not real but are all made up.

Ray

Maybe I should have said the "big noise" in this field, the Corbins...

Mr. Corbin, Dave, on his web site has advertising by Mr. Berger, Walt; Mr. Stark, Clint (yes, I know he closed down); Corbond... etc.

It takes little understanding to guess that Mr. Berger is interested in selling bullets, not bullet making equipment by Mr. Corbin...

Regardless, the question could be put to [dave@corbins.com] for a definitive answer.

With Dave's rather extensive writings/books on the site for review/download free (sans pictures) I suggest this as the place to start for anyone. Yes, then the Nemi's maybe... but bring money... Mr. Corbin also has ads for used equipment... got to start somewhere. luck.

iiranger,
Mr Corbin listed bullet makers on his forum that responded to his questionaire. What does that have to do with him and his products? I know for a fact that Walt and Clint do not use his products. These listings are for the purpose of helping his business only.
Butch