Hi all, I have been thinking about making 6.5 round nose projectiles for my Mannlicher and Carcano rifles, both use 160 gn 266-268 size pills.
Would a 22 magnum case stretch to 268 or would it split? How would I go about doing it if it's possible? Is the equipment available off the shelf or would it be special order?

Thanks guy's
Pete

Well, while not familiar with the Carcano's progressive twist I can tell you for sure that the Mannlicher was never intended for .266-268" bullets. While this is the actual groove diameter, the idea behind the overbore barrel was that the long bullet gets bulged due to the pressure ant then fits the rifling perfectly. In the old days this principle was quite common and the .26 BSA cartridge put it even to the extreme, using hollow based .266" bullets in barrels measuring .277"/.270"
I've shot many 6,5X54 Mannlichers and never got better accuracy with .266" and .267" custom bullets than with .264" Hornady 160gr RN. There are barrels of different accuracy potential, however. From clover leafes to 2"+ is what you can expect.

quote:

Originally posted by darwinmauser:
Hi all, I have been thinking about making 6.5 round nose projectiles for my Mannlicher and Carcano rifles, both use 160 gn 266-268 size pills.----

Pete

CH4D (or other) "bumping' dies are the simplest way to get a non-160 gr. .268.

http://www.ch4d.com/

Have several 6.5's some do better in terms of accuracy with .264's,(several brands) some with .268's Hornady/Graff).

quote:

Originally posted by scarabeus:
Well, while not familiar with the Carcano's progressive twist I can tell you for sure that the Mannlicher was never intended for .266-268" bullets. While this is the actual groove diameter, the idea behind the overbore barrel was that the long bullet gets bulged due to the pressure ant then fits the rifling perfectly. In the old days this principle was quite common and the .26 BSA cartridge put it even to the extreme, using hollow based .266" bullets in barrels measuring .277"/.270"
I've shot many 6,5X54 Mannlichers and never got better accuracy with .266" and .267" custom bullets than with .264" Hornady 160gr RN. There are barrels of different accuracy potential, however. From clover leafes to 2"+ is what you can expect.

Thanks for the reply scarabeus, My Carcano's were made in 1940 and 1941 so they have a standard twist barrel , i believe the Italians did away with the gain twist barrels in the 30's. My Mannlicher doesn't shoot 264 projectiles at all well ,I can drop a 264 into the muzzle and it will fall all the way through and barely touch the sides. I know I should buy a new barrel but i wanted to try a larger projectile before doing that .

DuggaBoye-O,the availability of larger 6.5 projectiles in Australia is very limited to non existent so either i go cast or I make them ,even with the free trade agreement signed between Australia and the US getting shooting supplies from the US is problematic, we can't import #35 primers(50 BMG),barrels, or a heap of other stuff that the US government has decided to restrict the export of in the name of the war on terror, because of this a lot of US retailers are not willing to send anything for fear of breaking the law and the consequences of that .

Pete.

Hello Darwinmauser,

Give me a ring or email me, I think I can help you out with this one.

quote:

Originally posted by scarabeus:
Well, while not familiar with the Carcano's progressive twist I can tell you for sure that the Mannlicher was never intended for .266-268" bullets. While this is the actual groove diameter, the idea behind the overbore barrel was that the long bullet gets bulged due to the pressure ant then fits the rifling perfectly.

Are you quite sure about this? Do you remember where you learned it so that we too may read that source?

It is my understanding that the bore diameter (Land diameter) was generally the same as we now make them, but that the groove diameter was made deeper very early on, after lessons learned with cordite and the early British .303 loadings of it.... I.e., that cordite was highly erossive, so barrel grooves were made deeper (groove diameter larger) to increase the life over which barrels would be useful in practical terms. At the same time, many of the sporting rifle makers supplied their barrels with similar deeper-grooved barrels and loaded their ammo with appropriate bullet sizes to fill those deeper grooves, as in the .280 Jeffery, .275 H&H Mag, etc., which went to .288" while much of the rest of the world used .284" diameter bullets. It was one of the curses of cordite, and led to the development/use of Axite, Moddite, etc. in ammo for Britain and its colonies too.

And yes, the bullets were those larger sizes. I know because I have pulled down quite a bit of original ammo back in the day, to see exactly what WAS being provided to us "colonials" by the Brit makers.

After ICI came into being in the 1920s (at least partly in an attempt to better standardize British ammo) bullet sizes could be reduced to the groove depths now standard. But, at one time .266" bullets were quite standard for some rounds.

It IS definitely true that many Brit rifles of the inter-war period and later, especially those on M/S actions, used barrels with bores as small as .263". Those barrels were not generally made in Britain. The barreled actions of rifles produced by Gibbs, et. al., were apparently often purchased AS complete barreled actions directly from Austria, then stocked, sighted, and finished by the Brit firms and sold under their Brit names.

That whole era is a fascinating puzzle, as the German ammo was reputed to be much more reliable in African or Indian use as it was found by many not nearly as heat-sensitive, nor as erossive or corossive as Cordite-powered British ammo.

On the other hand, relatively inexpensive German rifles (even though Mausers) were found less reliable by many of the professional hunters who used them.

darwinmauser, have you considered paper patched bullets? Standard rifle performance from cast bullets! They say that paper patching can make a worn bore shoot good.

#1). Mr. Corbin, Dave (he has a brother Richard) on his web sites [swage.com, corbins.com, etc.] has posted his book sans pictures "Rediscover Swaging # ?? 8 or 9) for study, review, download, etc. In there he discusses what you propose and it is possible he says to make bullets up to 7mm with .22 RF Mag cases -- I don't recall max weight. Obviously this is not the jacketed bullet to try and shoot thru a telephone pole with. But doable.

Tooling, which should be available for the heavier reloading presses or custom press, is custom as a rule and not cheap. A visit to the web site should give you the info you need. Basically you have to turn the case into a jacket, THEN you need the custom dies to make a .268 bullet...

Seems there has been a commercial source (USA) for .268 bullets. Hornady? No longer high demand with the decline in sales of Carcanos. I think I would google around a bunch before investing this kind of tooling money.

You also into the area where you can make jackets, strong jackets, from copper tubing. Those tools are not cheap either. ?? But available.

You don't indicate the proposed target. If you are going after game of any size... yes, jacketed bullets. Small deer or smaller game and with today's lubes you can get almost all these cartridges have to give, alledgedly, with well cast bullets. Molds are a whole lot cheaper.

As suggested, you can paper patch jacketed bullets too along with lead using the paper as a 2nd jacket to fill the bore. Takes a bit of fine motor finger skill, but quite cheap and satisfactory if you go thru the learning curve. Wolf Publishing had a very good book out (Phoneix, AZ, USA). Others available too, just I have not read them. The other tricky option is to "patch" with teflon plumbers tape. More difficult than paper, but much higher velocities and reduced wear possible. LUCK.

Thanks for all the responses guys,I managed to get hold of half a dozen 268 projectiles and tried them out ...at 50 metres they were going sideways through the target. I suppose this indicates that the barrel is very pregnant .
I'm going the other way now , I will buy a new barrel .

cheers
Pete

It may or may not be of help there in Australia but HORNADY do a .268" 160 grain "Carcano" bullet:

Hornady 160 Grain MS Carcano Bullet

That they are tumbling may not indicate a pregnant barrel. It may be that the weight is not compatible with the twist.

The other choice is to get a specialist die to "bump up" .264" diameter bullets to .268".

quote:

Originally posted by darwinmauser:
Thanks for all the responses guys,I managed to get hold of half a dozen 268 projectiles and tried them out ...at 50 metres they were going sideways through the target. I suppose this indicates that the barrel is very pregnant .
I'm going the other way now , I will buy a new barrel .

cheers
Pete

Just re-read the first post--

I missed the == a .264 "Falls through" part-

You may have 7.35mm barrels.

A .264 should not fall through a .268 without a little push or at least a little shaking, have you slugged the barrel?

Have you mic'ed the case necks after firing?

Also key-holes are often caused by crown problems , and occasionally by throat problems.

(There also were 8mm Mauser Carcanos ,however the 6.5 case should be destroyed when fired in that chamber.)

Enfieldspares, getting Hornady 268 projectiles in Australia is a bit of a problem ,the tumbling may be caused by the wrong bullet but the barrel is quite sad anyway hence it will be replaced. It's not prohibitively expensive , I have a quote /estimate for just over $500.00 to supply and fit a new barrel cut to the original conture (sp) I will get the new barrel in 264 rather than the original size so that should solve all of the problems.

thanks
Pete

Duggaboye, the problem I have is with a Mannlicher Schönauer,it's definitely a 6.5x54.I've made up my mind it getting a new barrel so whatever is causing the keyholes will disappear with the old tube.
I also own a 6.5x52 Carcano , it shoots any bullet I put through it quite accurately ,I don't know why they're so unpopular ,maybe because of JFK or that they're bloody hard to mount a decent scope onto.

Ok, misunderstood.
New Barrel sounds good