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Battle of Rourke's Drift.

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02 January 2022, 00:03
Peter
Battle of Rourke's Drift.
This took place on January 23 1879. Roughly 150 British troops held off about 4000 Zulu warriors, killing an unknown number, believed to be between 400 and 700, while suffering casualties themselves. The movie "Zulu", IMHO one of the best war movies ever made, shows the events. In 2005, a Zulu memorial was built at Rorke's Drift. Here it is:

https://i.imgur.com/K9ENmWa.jpg

The leopard is the symbol of the Zulu king, protecting the shields of the fallen Zulu warriors. The tree in the middle of the memorial is a special tree
"traditionally planted on the graves of members of the royal family, and also used to bring home the spirit of a person who had died far from home, as did most of the warriors who perished in this battle."
Peter


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
02 January 2022, 04:07
Beretta682E
A rifle used at Rourke Drift from a friend’s collection





Mike
02 January 2022, 06:04
SlamFire
quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
This took place on January 23 1879. Roughly 150 British troops held off about 4000 Zulu warriors, killing an unknown number, believed to be between 400 and 700, while suffering casualties themselves. The movie "Zulu", IMHO one of the best war movies ever made, shows the events. In 2005, a Zulu memnorial was built at Rorke's Drift. Here it is:

https://i.imgur.com/K9ENmWa.jpg

The leopard is the symbol of the Zulu king, protecting the shields of the fallen Zulu warriors. The tree in the middle of the memorial is a special tree
"traditionally planted on the graves of members of the royal family, and also used to bring home the spirit of a person who had died far from home, as did most of the warriors who perished in this battle."
Peter


Times have changed. The Imperialist English went where they wanted, killed anyone who got in their way, took over what they wanted, and considered everyone else inferior and barbarous. In other words, they acted like psychopaths.

It is my opinion that the Zulu warriors who fought the British were brave men, and understood what it meant to charge a man with a cartridge gun with only a spear as a weapon. I would say they were motivated to kick the SOB British out of their country, and were willing to put their lives on the line to do so.

They lost, but their descendants still remember their courage and convictions.
02 January 2022, 06:34
Peter
quote:
It is my opinion that the Zulu warriors who fought the British were brave men, and understood what it meant to charge a man with a cartridge gun with only a spear as a weapon. I would say they were motivated to kick the SOB British out of their country, and were willing to put their lives on the line to do so.

Not sure anyone would disagree with you. That's the point of my post. The Zulu memorial is amazingly beautiful (to me at least). I assume that you have NOT seen the movie "Zulu". Watch it and then come back, and recite the lines from 'Clifton Chapel":
To set the cause above renown,
To love the game beyond the prize,
To honour, while you strike him down,
The foe that comes with fearless eyes;
To count the life of battle good,
And dear the land that gave you birth,
And dearer yet the brotherhood
That binds the brave of all the earth.—

Peter.

PS. This quote:
The Imperialist English went where they wanted, killed anyone who got in their way, took over what they wanted, and considered everyone else inferior and barbarous. In other words, they acted like psychopaths.
Suppose you change the word "English" to "American", "Spanish", "Dutch", "Italian", "Portugese". Notice anything??


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
02 January 2022, 18:56
JTEX
quote:
Suppose you change the word "English" to "American", "Spanish", "Dutch", "Italian", "Portugese". Notice anything??


Or Zulu, Shangaan, apache, aztec, Comanche or Cheyenne. Notice anything?
02 January 2022, 19:19
Bill/Oregon
Higher tech warrior societies will almost always beat lower tech warrior societies. Remember that the Zulus had destroyed the British at Islandlwana the afternoon before the battle at Rourke's Drift, six miles away.
The Zulus had been united and organized as a military nation only about 60 years earlier under Shaka.
They were among the great wave of peoples who swept south during the Bantu Migration, defeating, displacing and or colonizing the peoples who already lived there.

"As the peoples the Bantu came across were still in the Stone Age in terms of weapons and technology, the iron-weaponed migrants with their specialised warrior caste had little trouble imposing themselves wherever they went. Their superior technology also encouraged local peoples to accept Bantu leadership. Some groups did resist this wave of Bantu culture, such as the 'pygmies' who retreated to the depths of the central Africa rainforests or the groups of savannah hunter-gatherers, the San, who likewise retreated to the inhospitable and less accessible environment of the Kalahari Desert."
--World History Encyclopedia

Sound familiar?
I am no apologist for the relentless British imperialism of the Victorian era, and I agree completely with Peter that the monument at Roark's Drift is beautiful and poignant. The Zulus were brave warriors.


There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t.
– John Green, author
02 January 2022, 23:07
SlamFire
quote:
Originally posted by Peter:

PS. This quote:
The Imperialist English went where they wanted, killed anyone who got in their way, took over what they wanted, and considered everyone else inferior and barbarous. In other words, they acted like psychopaths.
Suppose you change the word "English" to "American", "Spanish", "Dutch", "Italian", "Portugese". Notice anything??

I am going to offer that all human organizations act as psychopaths. There is a very long list of psychopathic behaviors, but they are all totally selfish, grandiose, self centered, have no guilt, have no shame, no empathy, lie with conviction, are very manipulative, and totally focused on their needs and wants. They are predator, you can only have a master/slave relationship with one. The world, the universe, is disposable in the attainment of their desires. Psychopaths are now people and fearless. Their fearlessness combined with lack of empathy and their short termism, in all cases eventually leads to failure. Which is a good explanation why Corporations always blow up.

This guy considers psychopathy as a subset of narcissism, but his comments on both are interesting.

Malignant Narcissism: At the Core of Psychopathy

https://www.drgeorgesimon.com/...core-of-psychopathy/

One of the things that I stress in my book Character Disturbance, is that psychopaths possess a uniquely malignant form of narcissism. They not only have little empathy for others, but also see themselves as superior to typical human beings. They actually consider themselves a superior form of life compared to other humans, which in their mind creates a justification for preying on those they regard as inferior. It’s their highly malignant narcissism that makes them capable of the callous, senseless, remorseless, use and abuse of others that defines their core character trait.

If you monitor any human organization, what they do, how they act, the psychopathy model is robust and a good predictor of behavior. Even the Church denied fault, demonized the victims and protected the sexual predators. While social pressure has forced these organizations “to admit fault”, scratch deeper and find they are only pretending remorse. And they are laughing at the public for being so stupid to believe their act.

Why this is so, might be due to the fact that in any society, selfish individuals out compete altruistic individuals. So the most selfish and determined individuals end up running organizations. There also seems to be a natural tribalism within humans. Tribalism has its own complex behaviors, but it is all about outsiders being bad and the end justifies the means.

All of the countries you listed, all of them have done terrible things, basically because they could, and because it was for their best interests. And notice today how many of these European countries proclaim themselves moral leaders. They absolutely have no shame whatsoever.

I may have seen the Movie Zulu when it was released in 1964, might have been in a drive in movie theater. (I miss those, they were fun) I have watched it several times since then. The movie was thematically indistinguishable from the cowboy and Indian films of the era. The British are portrayed as virtuous, the Zulu as implacable killers. Science fiction movies use the same tropes: killer robot armies, toothy implacable aliens. Zulu the movie follows the big man theory of history, that it is the big men in the movie are the ones who shape and mold the future, everyone else is a bit player. I do not recall any discussion of the British taking over Zulu land for their benefit. Historically it was all a twisted series of events involving Boers, world powers, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Zulu_War

Were the British any morally superior to the Zulu's, I can't say. What is true, is that big eats small. Justice is only a question between equals of power, the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must. That comes from the Athenian take over of Melos. https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/melian.htm

The movie Zulu is an example of how post WW2 liberals shaped and molded the past to make themselves feel better. They wanted to feel heroic and virtuous, when they were anything but.
03 January 2022, 01:45
Peter
Damn JTEX, I don't agree with you on much, but I do agree with your post above. Of course we could add the Babylonians, Assyrians and Egyptians! Maybe the Brits should ask the Italians for financial compensation for the Roman invasion and occupation 2000 years ago.
Anyway, they are all a bunch of psychopaths I guess!
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
03 January 2022, 09:33
NormanConquest
It was a spectacular battle (unless you were there) + great British victory, unlike Islanalwana; but then I have always found great interest in classic battles of the few against the many; Thermopolye, Little Big Horn, Roukes Drift. Right or wrong the end results were the same in regard to the bravery of the defenders. I admit there was a big difference between the Spartan's protecting their homeland versus American or English aggression against the "folks who already lived here." but that does not detract from the bravery of the troops that served there.


Never mistake motion for action.
03 January 2022, 09:46
NormanConquest
Bill, just scrolled back + I'm glad that you said that high-tech societies will ALMOST ALWAYS beat the lower societies. Case in point in our life time was Nam; they won because they wanted it more + regardless of our technology we had politicians that let them, but then they put us there in the 1st place.


Never mistake motion for action.
03 January 2022, 18:20
JTEX
quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
Damn JTEX, I don't agree with you on much, but I do agree with your post above. Of course we could add the Babylonians, Assyrians and Egyptians! Maybe the Brits should ask the Italians for financial compensation for the Roman invasion and occupation 2000 years ago.
Anyway, they are all a bunch of psychopaths I guess!
Peter.


I don't know if it makes people psychopaths to want more than they have and to better themselves.

But we "should" be more civilized know and learn from the past, not repeat it.
03 January 2022, 18:27
SlamFire
quote:
Originally posted by NormanConquest:
Bill, just scrolled back + I'm glad that you said that high-tech societies will ALMOST ALWAYS beat the lower societies. Case in point in our life time was Nam; they won because they wanted it more + regardless of our technology we had politicians that let them, but then they put us there in the 1st place.


Vietnam, and Afghanistan, ended up being proxy wars. Without Russian and Chinese support the NVA would not have had the resources to continue, even if they were less corrupt than the Southern Leaders. I also believe this to be true in Afghanistan. Outsiders were putting enough resources to keep the opposition going.

The Afghan sure killed British butt in the 1842 Afgan war, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Afghan_War but the British came back with better leaders and more resources.
03 January 2022, 20:47
TomP
quote:
Originally posted by SlamFire:
quote:
Originally posted by NormanConquest:
Bill, just scrolled back + I'm glad that you said that high-tech societies will ALMOST ALWAYS beat the lower societies. Case in point in our life time was Nam; they won because they wanted it more + regardless of our technology we had politicians that let them, but then they put us there in the 1st place.


Vietnam, and Afghanistan, ended up being proxy wars. Without Russian and Chinese support the NVA would not have had the resources to continue, even if they were less corrupt than the Southern Leaders. I also believe this to be true in Afghanistan. Outsiders were putting enough resources to keep the opposition going.

The Afghan sure killed British butt in the 1842 Afgan war, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Afghan_War but the British came back with better leaders and more resources.


Pipeline wars, these days. Not that there weren't enough squabbles for a civil war already, but the money wasn't there until the pipelines came.


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
04 January 2022, 02:07
Kensco
Two good books about South African history. -

"The Zulu War" An illustrated history by Michael Barthorp (Isandhlwana to Ulundi)

Off the subject slightly; "To The Bitter End" by Emanoel Lee (A photographic history of the Boer War 1899-1902)

They had themselves about twenty-five years of steady bloodshed in South Africa.
04 January 2022, 07:18
lavaca
Man will always find a reason to justify killing his fellow man. Sometimes, he calls it war.
05 January 2022, 00:08
Jerry Fisk
Lavaca, yes, it began with the Jaw bone of an Ass to kill. Now it's the politicians Ass who kills


Keep the Pointy end away from you
www.jerryfisk.com
06 January 2022, 17:04
Bill/Oregon
Ken, I would add "The Washing of the Spears" to that short list.


There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t.
– John Green, author
07 January 2022, 09:18
NormanConquest
Remember the scene in "Zulu Dawn"?
"What's that noise?"
"It's their feet, they've been running for 3 days,"


Never mistake motion for action.