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I hate it when a name brand falls on hard times. I didn't realize Colt was about to file for bankruptcy.

http://www.marketwatch.com/sto...by-monday-2015-06-14

Before I became a Smith & Wesson fan, I wanted a Colt Python more than anything. I couldn't afford either. I started with a used Ruger .22 convertible with a slug stuck midway down the barrel and worked my way up, as I grew up.
 
Posts: 13760 | Location: Texas | Registered: 10 May 2002Reply With Quote
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A lucrative military contract can cover a multitude of sins, so, when you lose it, it shows other weaknesses. Where are the new products to compete with those offered by Glock, S&W, Beretta, SIG, Ruger etc. etc? It is my understanding that much of their manufacturing is subbed out.
Gun sales seem to be at an all time high, with prices down, and Colt can't make it? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless they are just not competitive.
Peter.


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Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Colt has been a terrible company for a long time.

Got saved by Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

They sold an m4 for $1200 - remington/freedom arms bid to make the same gun for $564. This was mil spec to us government.

If you read the background on Donald Zilkha it is surprising the company took so long to file ch11. Two wars and lax government contracts help but cant delay the inevitable.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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I think Colt does so on odd numbered years.

They used to do it on Presidential Election cycles, but they could barely repudiate their debt and get some suckers, er; new investors to make it four years.

It is my personal opinion that Colt believes that they are divinely ordained to sell stuff hardly anybody wants, at exorbitant prices, and that they should have waiting lists on everything.
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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They need to relocate to a gun friendly state, shed the unions and replace the upper level of management. THEN, they need to bring back their popular lines of guns, including and especially the double action revolvers. If they don't do that it will be over for them in a short period of time. As for the SAA, they are overpriced and a bit short on hand-fitting quality. That can be easily corrected as well. USFA was a much higher quality revolver..but met their demise too. I have one of the Colt Light rifles which were only made for a short time but it was a very good quality, very accurate rifle for a light-weight and the price point was quite good as well..I think it was around $700.
 
Posts: 4115 | Location: Pa. | Registered: 21 April 2006Reply With Quote
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Well I certainly would buy a pair of single actions in 44-40 with 4 5/8 barrels. Perhaps a nickel plated 4 inch python also. But, Colt was more interested in M-4's than my business. If you don't offer quality and what the people want, you deserve to go under.
 
Posts: 5691 | Location: Ohio | Registered: 02 April 2003Reply With Quote
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That's a shame. I have some very nice Colt firearms.
 
Posts: 18517 | Registered: 04 April 2005Reply With Quote
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It has primarily been labor unions that have been the bane to Colt for many years. They should simply relocate to the South but it is probably too late now.


NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS.
Shoot & hunt with vintage classics.
 
Posts: 9487 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 11 January 2002Reply With Quote
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Sadly, I cannot find disagreement with any of the above posts. Pity that the company Sam Colt founded should come to this.

The upside is those that do own Pythons (not me, however)will see their value increase even more.

And very true it is that New England possibly excluding NH, just isn't a firearm-friendly territory anymore.


Doug Wilhelmi
NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 7503 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 15 October 2013Reply With Quote
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Its not good business when you create a market for kimber, bushmaster and the like.
 
Posts: 1284 | Location: N.J | Registered: 16 October 2004Reply With Quote
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And do it better than the original
 
Posts: 1284 | Location: N.J | Registered: 16 October 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
It has primarily been labor unions that have been the bane to Colt for many years. They should simply relocate to the South but it is probably too late now.

Hmmm! Where did you get your MBA? You don't think that lack of products that people want has anything to do with it? Nah! Couldn't possibly be. Glock, Beretta, SIG, S&W are busy producing new products and then there is Colt!
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Colt screwed over the civilian market for years doing away with some of the most popular products.

Than they screwed with their AR line so it wouldn't take mil spec parts. To kiss the anti's ass.

They wonder why they lost business Even as a police armorer they wouldn't sell me an AR with a flash hider on it Screw them
 
Posts: 19314 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Colt screwed over the civilian market for years doing away with some of the most popular products.


One of the other rimfire benchrest shooters has a Colteer, a rather nice single-shot bolt-action 22 rimfire. We shot it a few times when he first got it, and it was decently accurate. Too bad they didn't make more of them.


TomP

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Posts: 14331 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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Colt DID make very good products. My Gold Cup is a very good pistol. My HBAR is an accurate gun. My Python was a thing of beauty! None of these are new guns!
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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I'm not sure a knee-jerk reaction blaming Unions is a proper answer.

S&W is making it work in the NE with their Union workers.

Ruger is making it work in the NE with their Union workers.

Savage is making it work in the NE with their Union workers.

Colt just needs to understand the concept of making a better product at a competitive price point.
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Agreed IHS!
Striker fired guns are the new, in thing. Some research on a better trigger would sell guns. The DA trigger on my Ruger LCR is amazing. Ruger has proved that single action revolvers DO sell. I have a couple in 45 Colt and 44 mag. SIG makes a wonderful P220 etc. etc.
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Actually, the firearm and ammunition makers are moving away from union states. Ruger has a plant in Arizona, Remington has moved some production to Arkansas, FN has a rifle plant in South Carolina. Beretta is looking to move production from Maryland. Rio has a new shotshell plant in Texas and Armscor has an ammo plant in Montana. There are many other examples. As blue states become ever less firearm friendly expect the migration to red states by firearm/ammunition companies to accelerate.
 
Posts: 366 | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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So, you don't think that tax incentives and PAYING companies to move their plant to your state has anything to do with it? Please tell me what skills workers in Arkansas have that workers in "blue states" don't. other than being prepared to work for less money and fewer benefits. It's a race to the bottom. When other countries do it to us, we get upset, but when states do it, it's OK, and of course, it's not "big government" when states offer these incentives! This is all about the ineptitude of Colt, despite your effort to frame it as a union issue.
Peter


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Peter I am curious - How many Colt firearms would you purchase if they were 20% more for the same quality as you could get in a non-union shop?

Funny how everyone chirps all day long about the race to the bottom and cheap labor yet few (if any) are willing to pay more for US Union made goods. I am sure if you would consider your last few purchases you would quickly understand how blindingly hypocritical you really are.

coffee


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Posts: 22442 | Location: Occupying Little Minds Rent Free | Registered: 04 October 2012Reply With Quote
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quote:
So, you don't think that tax incentives and PAYING companies to move their plant to your state has anything to do with it?


So, what is wrong with that? It is very expensive to move and companies, just like anyone, try to get the best deal they can. States use incentives to lure them to their state for the simple reason that a new employer brings significant benefits to both the state in taxes and to their citizens as employees and to the people who the employees and company purchase goods from.

So someone in Arkansas who is willing to work for less is somehow making a poor decision? Not necessarily, why don't you check out average wages and housing and living costs in Conn. compared to Ark. and compare tax rates.

The reason they lost the M16 contract was simply that their bid was SIGNIFICANTLY higher than FNs. Why? I'm not sure, but when FN can produce the same item for half the price and presumably make money on it, labor cost has to be a factor.

I would suggest that the Colt problem is certainly ineptitude on management's part which certainly includes the high cost of local labor, as well as not changing with the times and producing products that their customers wanted. They should have moved years ago.


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Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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Not sure I understand your question. I have NO idea whether or not the products I buy are made in a union shop or not. Should I? I am buying a product, and if it meets my needs at a price that I want to pay then I might buy it. So would I buy a Colt single action when I can buy a Ruger? Probably not. I own a Ruger SS in 45 Colt. I also own a Ruger SS in 44 Magnum. I also own a S&W 629 in 44 magnum. No Colt Anaconda!
I have no idea whether my Kreighoff Classic in 500/416 was made in a union shop or not, but it is a wonderful gun. Ditto my Blaser S2 in 500NE, not to mention my Blaser R93 in fitted case and multiple barrels, QD scope mounts etc. etc.
I will pay for quality, no matter who makes it. Hence my Lexus ES330. However, I will not pay for a name. Frankly I really don't care whether they were made in a union shop or not. The unions must compete in the same market as everyone else. So if you are asking whether I would pay a premium for a product made in a union shop, the answer is NO. As usual, you have completely missed my point. if you are interested, please read my post again. let me repeat, this is about the ineptitude of Colt management, despite your effort to frame it as a union/non union issue. If labor costs were preventing them from competing, then they should take steps to reduce labor costs. This is not rocket science! However, as I have said elsewhere, I don't think this was Colt's problem. their problem was in part, lack of product development.
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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I might add that I rarely buy stuff new. If it seems like a good deal, like some of the newer AR15 for around $400 then yes, but cars and higher end firearms, I would rather buy used. Obviously the new price is still the new price, but I would rather someone else pay that premium!
Peter


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Labor is part of the problem, Management is the major issue and has been since WWII.

Jim


"Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas Jefferson

 
Posts: 6173 | Location: Richmond, Virginia | Registered: 17 September 2000Reply With Quote
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their incredible arrogance is the major issue...

If S&W can make a quality product in a 100% Union shop for a competitive price, why not Colt?

I think the dates on their bankruptcy are in pencil so they can erase that and reuse them every two years.
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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I have followed and invested in the firearms industry for 15 years. I probably have made enough money to subsidize my gun buying but not much more.

These have been historically terrible allocators of capital.

The personalities and managements have left a lot to be desired.

Swhc was a joke for a long time on the quality of its management and its strategic actions. However, swhc is the only company i know where guys working on the asembly line making guns have done it for 3 and sometimes 4 generations. No other us industry has that. Not autos not boeing.

Colt was a joke. It owner an iraqi jew who likes to hang out at four seasons restaurant and give money to sen schumers. Colt run by a former marine general who hates the owner. A bloated cost structure.

Wish the building and factory was on ct shoreline instead of hartford. Would make a great real estate play. Kind of like when bill ruger was horrified when it was mentioned that ruger should sell it ct headquarters.

The gun companies have historically been poorly run. Even the big defense guys dont like to get involved in small arms.

Just too much focus on a small industry with way more political clout thanks to its users than its real economic value.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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I can't think of a worse industry to invest in, unless it's the airlines. They both seem to shift into self-destruct mode periodically.
 
Posts: 13760 | Location: Texas | Registered: 10 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Don't throw the airlines into this pile of crap. I still own a lot of DAL at $9 3/4...

Cool


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Posts: 22442 | Location: Occupying Little Minds Rent Free | Registered: 04 October 2012Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Opus1:
Don't throw the airlines into this pile of crap. I still own a lot of DAL at $9 3/4...

Cool


Well bought mr opus - Dal will be at 60 in 18 months. Management is as solid as they come and they should fly crappy old planes and keep buying back stock.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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And charging ridiculous fees for extra bags and change fees. DAL made $840 million in reservation change/cancellation fees and $833 million in baggage fees in 2014.

Hate it for the traveler, but love it as an investor.


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Posts: 22442 | Location: Occupying Little Minds Rent Free | Registered: 04 October 2012Reply With Quote
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The problem with airlines is that even if they make money in the short-term that only draws new discount airlines into the industry, which generates price wars, which results in losses, which causes mergers and bankruptcies. Five predecessor airlines have been folded into the current Delta. Two Delta subsidiaries have failed since 2003. The stock has had a great ride the past two years, but if you bought into it around the first of the year, you are down 16%, and headed lower as fuel prices firm. You can't live off their dividend of less than 1%. If I were you, I would sell your winner and hope to buy back in at a lower price. I like Delta, but I'm not married to it.

I tried to make money off American Airlines and just fund it too hard, as good management started making bad decisions to gain market share. Finally they went bankrupt. I'm staying away from the industry.

There was a great report I read a few years ago. It highlighted how much money the airline companies had lost since Wilbur and Orville got off the ground. It was a staggering number. I believe it was well over 100 billion. Most of it self-inflicted.
 
Posts: 13760 | Location: Texas | Registered: 10 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Timing is everything when it comes to investing.


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Posts: 22442 | Location: Occupying Little Minds Rent Free | Registered: 04 October 2012Reply With Quote
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S&W quality control has been all over the map. Some years good; some years bad. And I think of Ruger, not S&W when I think of firearms sold at a 'reasonable price'.
 
Posts: 366 | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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The gun industry / firearms industry is in the bigger picture largely irrelevant.

It's has a far bigger political and cultural footprint than a financial one. Why I think the shot show in Vegas is so damn funny. 40k people to buy and sell products that at max is $10 bil.

Sounding politically incorrect on this message board - 30k american kill or are killed themselves via firearms every year. The industry to service that is far bigger than the gun industry.

Colt has been an irrelevant and poorly run company in a small industry.

The growth in the industry is lately is largely driven by Obama - he achieved the opposite result.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Interesting program on the National Geographic Channel this evening. One of a series titled American Genius, it was called Colt vs. Wesson. I did not see the whole program just the last half hour or so. Things I got out of it:
1. A Colt employee went to Colt with an idea for a self contained cartridge (Bullet powder and primer. Colt did not pick it up so he went to Wesson.
2. Wesson liked the idea but needed a financial backer. Found Smith!
3. Colt sold a bunch of firearms to the South before the start of the Civil War. When the war started this was discovered and he was in some disgrace (read "traitor").
4. To redeem himself, the State of Connecticut makes him a Colonel and he announces that he will lead a regiment into battle. Unfortunately he insists that he will handpick the recruits. The Governor is pi---d and the regiment is disbanded within 2 months.
5. Colt gets sick and dies (of gout) at age 47, leaving the business and an estate worth $15 million ($350 million in today's currency) to his wife who runs the business.
6. Colt's factory burns to the ground. Suspicion falls on disgruntled Confederate sympathizers.
7. After the war, Colt factory is rebuilt and is successfully run by his wife who introduces the "Peacemaker".
Interesting program.
Peter


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Shotshellz, I tend to agree, but I don't think that S&W is competing on price. Their Performance Center products are priced high but are of extremely high quality. On the other hand I would have to go to a Hammerli or perhaps a Pardini to find something better than my S&W model 41, ditto my S&W model 52! I can't think of anything that competes with these, and yes, I do own a High Standard Trophy which is VERY good, but not really in the same league as the model 41, at least not in my hands.
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10505 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
So, you don't think that tax incentives and PAYING companies to move their plant to your state has anything to do with it? Please tell me what skills workers in Arkansas have that workers in "blue states" don't. other than being prepared to work for less money and fewer benefits. It's a race to the bottom. When other countries do it to us, we get upset, but when states do it, it's OK, and of course, it's not "big government" when states offer these incentives! This is all about the ineptitude of Colt, despite your effort to frame it as a union issue.
Peter


Well, I travel regularly through all those hardcore union states working with middle class union workers. Most of them live in the row house version of a Texas trailer park or a cracker box vinyl-sided home from a 1952 Sears catalog. I live in the south and can tell you for a fact the "low" wages and benefits here for comparable work will go a lot farther than it does in the Northeast.


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Posts: 11137 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: 22 September 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Kensco:

I tried to make money off American Airlines and just fund it too hard, as good management started making bad decisions to gain market share. Finally they went bankrupt. I'm staying away from the industry.


One of my first ventures into the stock market was buying a little of PSA Airlines, a nice little intrastate commuter airline. The stock did go up as I'd thought it would, but the commissions in and out ate the profit. Oh well, that was life in the 1970s.

American went bankrupt all right, in part because it hadn't reneged on its retirement plan. It was then bought out by US Air, which had already gone belly-up and offloaded its pension plan to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (which guarantees nothing of the kind). The big surprise wasn't that US Air had ditched their retirees, but that United had already done it a year earlier and I hadn't noticed.


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

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Posts: 14331 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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