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Open carry advocates......they need some common sense...... Login/Join 
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posted
I think they're hurting gun rights far more than helping.

quote:
Gun Carrying Group May Not Be Only Ones Affected By Arlington Bans
April 23, 2014 6:40 PM


ARLINGTON (CBSDFW.COM) – One story reported on CBSDFW.COM has a lot of people talking. It started with Tuesday night’s vote on an ordinance by the Arlington City Council to ban guns and concealed weapons at public meetings.
Members of the gun rights group Open Carry Tarrant County believe they are the ones being targeted, but they may not be the only ones affected by ordinance changes.
A second Arlington ban could put heavy restrictions on handing out pamphlets.
We’ve all seen them from time-to-time – groups trying to push their cause, including gun rights advocates. Now some leaders in Arlington say the approach by some groups creates hazardous situations.
Kim Martinez believes in free speech. But she says what happened to her recently nearly left her speechless. Recalling her reaction when approached Martinez said, ‘I was just like ‘step away from my car.’ I just looked at them and said ‘No! Back away from my car.’”
Martinez says she was approached last Friday near Rangers Ballpark in Arlington. Open Carry members walked up to try to hand her a copy of the constitution and literature promoting gun rights.
Not only were they carrying pamphlets, they were also packing heat. Members were armed and had their weapons openly displayed.
“It scared me. It really scared me,” Martinez said of the encounter. “I didn’t want them near my car. I didn’t want their gun near my car. I didn’t really want to hear anything they had to say.”
The Open Carry group has even documented several run-ins with police. Members ask if firefighters — who would be excluded from the ban — can stand and walk on street corners, sidewalks and medians while soliciting donations, then why can’t they?
Kory Watkins, with Open Carry Tarrant County, claimed that, “Nobody just goes to the car waving their gun around.”
Arlington council members also want to ban people from passing out literature to drivers in the roadway, but one member voted against the measure. Another vote will take place in May.
Kory said, “For us, it just means we are going to be harassed when we go pass out literature to citizens who mutually agree to want it and call us over.”
As for mom Kim Martinez, she said she was just glad she didn’t have her kids with her when Open Carry members approached her. “I applaud them for standing up for what they believe in. That’s all our rights and more people should do it.”
Open Carry members say if the ordinance passes in May then they are ready to go to court.
Sources told CBS 11 News the group will be in Euless on Thursday.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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I've been saying it for years. Texas is the new California!

Why don't you guys get off your butts and vote your anti-gun politicians out of office?

I guess it is true what they say: "Ain't nothing come from Texas but steers and queers."


Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown
 
Posts: 6834 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by JBrown:
I've been saying it for years. Texas is the new California!

Why don't you guys get off your butts and vote your anti-gun politicians out of office?

I guess it is true what they say: "Ain't nothing come from Texas but steers and queers."


Why didn't you stay in California and vote all the anti-gun politicians out? Instead of running like a coward?


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Why didn't you stay in California and vote all the anti-gun politicians out? Instead of running like a coward?


You are correct, an honorable captain goes down with the ship. UNLESS HE REALIZES THAT HE IS THE CAPTAIN OF A GARBAGE BARGE....

I was trying to fit in as many Texas put-downs as I could in one post. I guess I forgot "all hat and no sense of humor".
rotflmo

Basically I was turning the mirror on all the Texans who say that the CA gun owners are fools for not voting the AGP out of office. Hard to do when you are outnumbered????? Ha, Ha, Ha?

Texas is the new Oregon/Colorado. Get used to it or get moving.(like I did. Oh what a coward I am.....The shame, the shame!)


Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown
 
Posts: 6834 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I think they're hurting gun rights far more than helping.


BTW, Gato, look at what you wrote. Texas is the epicenter of "open carry" in most our minds. The fact that you are urging your statesmen to kiss ass is telling.....


Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown
 
Posts: 6834 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With Quote
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What's "telling" is your inability to read and comprehend. I'd certainly like you to quote where I was "urging my statesmen to kiss ass". Those yahoos are not my statesmen, just as a starter.

Your mind might need an update, since Texas does not have open carry and Wyoming does. That hardly makes us the "epicenter" of open carry.

I am flat stating that walking up to someone's car armed and uninvited (especially soccer mom types in an urban environment) is not a way to win friends and influence people. These guys are confrontational and are not winning gun owners any friends. As my heading says, they need to develop some common sense.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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Get over it open carry is coming to Texas both governor candidates even the liberal demorat said they well back an open carry bill.

Guns owners should just sit in the back of the bus and not eat at the whites only counter.

Open carry of handguns is legal in most states Texas is still struck in the post civil war era when it comes to carrying handguns.

The anti's hate firearms trying to appease them is the wrong way to go.
 
Posts: 19317 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Get over it open carry is coming to Texas both governor candidates even the liberal demorat said they well back an open carry bill.

Guns owners should just sit in the back of the bus and not eat at the whites only counter.

Open carry of handguns is legal in most states Texas is still struck in the post civil war era when it comes to carrying handguns.

The anti's hate firearms trying to appease them is the wrong way to go.


Get over what?

Since you seem to know so much about Texas politics, how much money would you like to bet on open carry becoming law within the next year? It could happen but I doubt it.

BTW in the very unlikely event that you want to back your mouth with money, I would suggest that you don't believe anything that comes out of Wendy Davis' mouth. In addition, the "open carry" being discussed/proposed in Texas is not true "open carry" but would allow concealed license holders to open carry, not the citizenry at large.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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Your unjust fears of scaring anti's. they don't like you any way. Placating them just like anti hunters never works it just emboldens them to ask for more.

Just the fact that most liberal candidate is at least giving it mouth service means something,

That that she would live up to her words if she is elected is another thing.

Anti's lie all the time.

If it just results in permit holders to carry is a win and a step in the right direction.
 
Posts: 19317 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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The problem with your position is that the "antis" aren't the ones you win and lose with, it's the great middle of American, many who don't hunt or own guns but still support the general theory of the Second Amendment. And then they see these nuts running around armed, coming up to people's cars and trying to give them literature and they swing the other way.

Since you're in Wis. you don't see the TV tapes about these incidents that I do. I'm not suggesting in any way that ALL the people who are actively supporting the right to carry are nutty (after all, I support it too Smiler ), but many of the ones you see on TV are. The impression they create and leave with others is not good, which is the point of this whole thread.

They could get the same message across in a much more positive way by NOT wearing firearms while they are, in effect, lobbying for support.

You really don't know crap about Texas politics and I see you didn't want to put your money where your mouth was......typical.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Since you're in Wis. you don't see the TV tapes about these incidents that I do. I'm not suggesting in any way that ALL the people who are actively supporting


You must be right youtube just doesn't work in the north woods back in the sticks heck I don't know how your getting this internet msg.

Hers a link to a story of a gun rights rally I am in the picture not only spending my money but putting my body and rights on the line.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t...TO3Li9IuTBDw3ZcolyhQ

I guess being from Wis I shouldn't have been there. But I thought it was the US constitution and the 2nd applied to all states

Rally's like this always need more bodies if ones personality doesn't allow them to carry a firearm.

They could do something a bit less threating then carrying a gun like a sign or just be there showing support.
 
Posts: 19317 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Gato's point is well taken. While open carry makes perfect sense logically, it is incendiary and frankly, do I want thugs walking down the street with open guns? No. But if that wasn't illegal, there wouldn't be probable cause to arrest them when they did it, even if we knew they were up to no good.

I think open carry is a bridge too far. Just my personal opinion.
 
Posts: 9954 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 26 December 2005Reply With Quote
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35 years ago, I was a commissioned LEO in TX. Even back then, TX had some of the most restrictive handgun laws of most of the states in the US. You could carry a rifle or a shotgun in your vehicle, but if you had a handgun, there were only 5 exceptions to the rules or you were arrested. I was happy to see them pass Concealed Carry but don't know about open carry. I personally feel that it causes an anxious feeling in non-armed citizens, almost to a "scared" point. I prefer Concealed Carry to open carry.
 
Posts: 4214 | Location: Southern Colorado | Registered: 09 October 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
From lavaca: .... do I want thugs walking down the street with open guns? No.


Do you think that those whom you call or consider to be "thugs" are currently unarmed? Or do these "thugs" (criminals?) carry concealed now?


I am a currently commissioned LEO, and have been since 1986.

quote:
From pagosawingnut: I personally feel that it causes an anxious feeling in non-armed citizens, almost to a "scared" point.


If they get used to seeing it, they won't be scared any more.

quote:
I prefer Concealed Carry to open carry.


Does that mean that everyone should be forced to abide by your preference?



.


NO COMPROMISE !!!

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"
 
Posts: 683 | Location: L A | Registered: 23 July 2002Reply With Quote
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I agree with pagosawingnut and gatogordo.

The big middle voting class of America generally support the idea of the constitution and carrying by CCW holders who have had a little training and undergone a background check before carrying.

It is also true, they believe that only to a degree. That degree is limited by how many guns they see being worn or waved round. As an abstract concept of a basic human right, they support it. But when they see a great number of folks who do not appear fully reputable (whether rightly or wrongly) toting guns around, they get nervous. And who can blame them? They don't know whether the person with the gun is a sound citizen, or a part time resident of the local state mental hospital who lied on his 4473...if he even had to fill one out to get his gun.


And don't believe for a minute enough of them will "get used to it" to preserve our rights.

As in everything in life, discretion is the better part of valor. Carry if you want to, with or without a permit. But for Pete's sake, carry concealed so you don't scare any of the great voting middle into thinking maybe the antis may have a valid point. We need political friends who feel secure around us, not those who are even the least bit nervous about us gun owners.
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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If people are exposed to open carry of firearms on a daily basis they will become accustomed to it. The problem is that when you open carry you put yourself at risk from over zealous police officers and from bad guys who would like to take your gun.

I prefer the element of surprise on my side so I carry concealed but that does nothing for the population that believes that guns themselves are evil and that only bad people carry them.

As the education continues we will continue to lose our rights until we have none.


Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page.
 
Posts: 639 | Location: SE WA.  | Registered: 05 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Wingnut,
I'm just expressing MY opinion. Not trying to force anyone to believe what I believe. You have your way of seeing things and I have another. Not trying to be argumentative.
 
Posts: 4214 | Location: Southern Colorado | Registered: 09 October 2011Reply With Quote
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Wingnut,

I agree with you but open carry does seem to limit law enforcement. As it stands now, I can carry concealed, which is good. If I "expose" the pistol, without good cause, I commit an offense. Law enforcement can detain, question, and/or arrest me.

If open carry is allowed, I can walk down the street with a pistol in my hand and that alone, does not give probable cause for an arrest.

I'm a huge supporter of the Second Amendment, but I'm not too sure about open carry.
 
Posts: 9954 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 26 December 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
"....open carry does seem to limit law enforcement.


As it SHOULD!

quote:
If I "expose" the pistol, without good cause, I commit an offense. Law enforcement can detain, question, and/or arrest me.


Not in my state. The law specifically states that possession and/or open carry alone is ***NOT*** grounds to detain, question or even stop a citizen. Should be that way in all 50.

I know of cases in which people have been killed by others using ball-point pens.

Hands and feet and blunt instruments are used in more murders in the U.S. annually than knives and firearms combined.

Mere possession of an instrument which ***MAY*** be used as a weapon, absent any act of aggression or attempt to use that instrument in an offensive manner, is not sufficient reason to infringe upon the rights of a citizen in any way.


NO COMPROMISE !!!

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"
 
Posts: 683 | Location: L A | Registered: 23 July 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Hands and feet and blunt instruments are used in more murders in the U.S. annually than knives and firearms combined.


Wanna bet and, if so, how much?

Hint: don't bet any amount you can't afford to lose.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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I stand corrected. Long night with no sleep, I misremembered a statistic regarding murders with RIFLES vs. murders with all firearms.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cj...weapon_2008-2012.xls

Still doesn't negate my point......

quote:
Mere possession of an instrument which ***MAY*** be used as a weapon, absent any act of aggression or attempt to use that instrument in an offensive manner, is not sufficient reason to infringe upon the rights of a citizen in any way.


NO COMPROMISE !!!

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"
 
Posts: 683 | Location: L A | Registered: 23 July 2002Reply With Quote
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As to the public getting used to open carry and then having no fear of armed people...balderdash. Some of them may get used to it, many others will not.

I compare it with my days as a homeless street-person in Watts, California when I was only 16 & 17. In Watts, which was/is a ghetto, there were large numbers of ethnic group young men standing around on most street corners and in just about every store parking lot. Most of the time you could walk right around (or through them as you usually had to do) with no harm suffered by you except for some racial slurs and maybe some aggressive panhandling.

Did that mean you lost your fear of them? Not if you had the brains God gave a pea. Three times in two years they tried to rob me. All three times I was (illegally) carrying concealed. Each time I walked away untouched.

Once I had a smart-ass in a group say to me..."Can't you count? There are 8 of us and you only have six shots." My reply was, "I know that, I'm just curious which 6 of you want to die? And YOU, asshole, are going to be FIRST if anyone lays a hand on me as I walk away".

In theory everyone being armed, openly, is a great thing. It is in its actual practice that its flaws become obvious to those who will open their minds enough to see.


My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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Albert,I have to agree with your last paragraph.It's too bad that more citizens are'nt responsible + it's too bad that some of us must pay the price because of the majority's ineptitude, but that is the way it is. What Gato started this column with was true.Most people would feel threatened by an armed person,in this case perceived agressivily.It was'nt but the fear factor was established.None of that helps the cause.


Never mistake motion for action.
 
Posts: 17357 | Location: Austin, Texas | Registered: 11 March 2013Reply With Quote
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This is from a "Texas Monthly" email, which is without doubt, a liberal leaning rag which I subscribe to and greatly enjoy many of their articles.

quote:
Open Carry Advocates Scared the Sourdough Out of a Bunch of Jack in the Box Employees
by DAN SOLOMON
TUE MAY 6, 2014 11:12 AM

Stop us if this sounds familiar: An armed group in a Texas city, semi-automatic rifles strapped across their backs, descended on a place where you don't typically see a bunch of large guns, scaring the hell out of the people who caught a glimpse of them. It's no wonder that some people thought that perhaps the armed group might be up to no good—only to learn that the group was just exercising their right to carry a long-arm firearm openly in public in the state of Texas.

This latest example of the growing trend occurred at a Fort Worth Jack In The Box location. As NBC DFW reports:

"An email from Sgt. Ray Bush, with the Fort Worth Police Department, said Jack in the Box employees at the South Freeway location on Sycamore School Road, were scared about the armed men protesting outside of the restaurant.

“They locked themselves inside a freezer for protection out of fear the rifle-carrying men would rob them,” the email stated. “The demonstration had no signage that would have alerted anyone to their real purpose, and to our knowledge they did not attempt to contact anyone in the Fort Worth Police Department to advise us prior to the demonstration.”

Fort Worth police responded to the situation as if it was a robbery.

The response from the Open Carry advocates who marched on the Jack In The Box also followed the established pattern for these things: A lot of talking about how they felt like the police were treating them like criminals, and reminding reporters at the scene that they do have the right to carry their weapons openly in Texas.

The fact that these cases have fairly established patterns at this point is noteworthy in and of itself, proving that this appears to be a fairly calcified debate in which open carry advocates say "We have the right to do this," critics say, "Yeah, but you're scaring the hell out of people for no reason other than the fact that you have the right to do it," and open carry advocates respond that people should actually feel safer when they're around, because if someone who has a gun and bad intentions shows up, there'll be a group of armed civilians there to take 'em on.

That's what the Fort Worth group's Edwin Haros told reporters after the Jack In The Box incident:

Haros, who believes openly carrying firearms helps police, said citizens should know that the demonstrations will continue.

“It’s just for safety purposes," Haros said. "Officers can’t be there at all times. We understand that. They can only do so much.”

Going to a restaurant for a Sourdough Jack and finding it robbed would be a horrible experience, for sure, but it's not entirely clear that going to a Jack In The Box and finding it to be the site of a firefight between robbers and a civilian peacekeeping force would be much safer.

But as these demonstrations continue to occur in Texas, all of these hypotheticals remain largely irrelevant. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Like parking a rusty 1985 Yugo on the curb in front of your neighbor's house or endlessly, noisily slurping at the bottom of your Real Ice Cream Shake at your local Jack In The Box, carrying a long-arm rifle in Texas is not illegal, and for demonstrators, the unforbidden is downright compulsory.

Still, it's worth discussing what this actually accomplishes. The stated goals of the Open Carry demonstrators range from "safety purposes" to "We're doing this because it's our Constitutional right" to a nebulous explanation of public education and, ultimately, a quest to see the right to Open Carry expanded to handguns. (Not stated, but implicit: some measure of delight in frightening people they've deemed to be their political opponents.)

If the goal is to win a PR campaign that reminds non-affiliated citizens that they're safer in the presence of armed strangers, and that those strangers are simply law-abiding citizens exercising their rights, though, it's pretty clear that the campaign's not a whopping success. It's safe to suspect that the Jack In The Box employees who hid in the freezer didn't emerge from the experience with a broader understanding of the majesty of Texas' gun laws, and while there's something to be said for playing to the base, the Open Carry campaign is losing ground even those with whom the activists share ideology. As Bob Owens, editor of a website called Bearing Arms: Saving Liberty and Lives, wrote in a post last November:

Without getting into an ideological argument over “right” and “wrong,” it seems clear that purely from a public relations perspective that long gun open carry is backfiring as a tactic to help legalize handgun open carry.

It’s time to start thinking about implementing other tactics that may be more beneficial towards achieving the stated end goal.


"It’s time to start thinking about implementing other tactics that may be more beneficial towards achieving the stated end goal." Exactly.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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Question for Wingnut -- would a citizen walking down the street with an open firearm be probable cause for an officer to stop and question them if open carry was allowed?

If not, what if you "know" someone is walking down the street with a firearm, with evil intent. Do you have probable cause? Or do you have to wait for the shots to be fired?

What is "know"?

What is "probable cause"?

I'm a Second Amendment advocate all the way. I just don't want to attempt a bridge to far.
 
Posts: 9954 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 26 December 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by NormanConquest:
Albert,I have to agree with your last paragraph.It's too bad that more citizens are'nt responsible + it's too bad that some of us must pay the price because of the majority's ineptitude, but that is the way it is. What Gato started this column with was true.Most people would feel threatened by an armed person,in this case perceived aggressively.It wasn't but the fear factor was established.None of that helps the cause.


I'd rather not be bothered about the few occasions when I have a firearm in public, but don't really care for seeing them on everybody's hips on workdays.
There is one town I remember that has "Old West Days" when everybody does carry a holstered revolver, but that's not an everyday thing.
For the most part, you need a reason to wear two pounds of steel dragging down your belt, and the rest of us wonder "...why...?".
Is the neighborhood so dangerous, or is the danger brought with him/her?


TomP

Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right.

Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)
 
Posts: 14332 | Location: Moreno Valley CA USA | Registered: 20 November 2000Reply With Quote
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Question for Wingnut -- would a citizen walking down the street with an open firearm be probable cause for an officer to stop and question them if open carry was allowed?

My state IS an open carry state - no permit required. Our law states specifically that possession and carrying a firearm openly IS NOT probable cause or reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

If not, what if you "know" someone is walking down the street with a firearm, with evil intent. Do you have probable cause?

If you "know" this from previous actions or statements of that individual, yes, that is probable cause to stop and investigate further.


Or do you have to wait for the shots to be fired?

Of course not.


What is "know"? What is "probable cause"?

Being able to articulate the reason that you have to believe that the person has "evil intent" as you put it, in such a manner as to cause a "reasonable man" (term of law - substitute reasonable PERSON) to reach the same conclusion.


And for you non-believers, people DO in fact get used to it. When the new law first went into effect, we got LOTS of calls. Explaining the new law to the callers calmly helped. Officers arriving and calmly approaching the open carrier, with a pleasant demeanor, simply explaining to him or her that someone unfamiliar with the law had called, carrying on that conversation in such a manner that others present could hear, and ending the conversation with smiles and handshakes that they could see, worked VERY well. The VERY few calls we get now are from tourists passing through.


NO COMPROMISE !!!

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"
 
Posts: 683 | Location: L A | Registered: 23 July 2002Reply With Quote
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Jack in the box story A Hoax's

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...-take-refuge-in.html


The widely reported story that Jack in the Box employees locked themselves in the freezer because they feared open carry activists is almost certainly a hoax. The event was reported to have happened at a Jack in the Box in the Dallas Fort Worth area.

This video report by NBC5 reporter Ken Kalthoff shows Irwin Harris saying that they entered the restaurant and were served without any fuss. He said they ordered, received their food, and left. The police told NBC5 that the employees then went into the cooler for protection. That seems a little odd... lock yourself in the freezer *after* the armed men act politely, pay for their purchases, and walk out? The only thing NBC5 has to show this is an email from the police. The Jack in the Box people refused to talk to the reporter.

Open Carry Texas has more. They requested the 911 calls to the police for the incident. They say there was only one, and they put it on YouTube. The caller simply describes the open carriers as casually walking, with one of them filming the others. They also contacted Jack in the Box, where officials deny that employees were ever in fear of their life. From the Open Carry Texas YouTube that includes the audio of the 911 call:

"Jack in the Box officials deny their employees were in fear of their lives or locked themselves in a freezer."
While I was not there, it certainly appears that we have another media frenzy against open carriers, that amounts to a hoax. The idea that employees locked themselves in the freezer *after* the open carriers left, and were so scared that they never called 911, and even denied that it ever happened to their bosses, is simply unbelievable.

Can we believe that the police sent an unverified email to a media outlet...

It seems much more likely to me.

This can use a bit more investigation. I would like to see the police email, and figure out where it came from. Maybe a Jack in the Box employee jokingly made a comment to police that got blown up, but it seems very likely that fear and "locking in the freezer" never happened.

Update: This is the police report that the Forbes reporter relied on:



In the interest of transparency, here is the full statement from Fort Worth P.D., which Sgt. Bush just confirmed to me (on Tues 5/6) is accurate:

On May 1st the F.W.P.D. received a call stating four males were carrying assault rifles in the parking lot of the Jack-in-the-Box located at Sycamore School Road and South Freeway.
Upon arrival, officers discovered a group of 4-6 males carrying rifles. The men reported that they were conducting an Open Carry Demonstration.
Officers spoke with Jack-in-the-Box employees who reported that they feared for their lives and believed they were being robbed. They locked themselves inside a freezer for protection out of fear the rifle-carrying men would rob them.
The demonstration had no signage that would have alerted anyone to their real purpose, and to our knowledge they did not attempt to contact anyone in the Fort Worth Police Department to advise us prior to the demonstration.
A patrol supervisor made the scene and spoke with members of the demonstration. He explained that in the future it would be advantageous if they carried large signage or flags declaring their purpose. He also gave them the number to the local police station so they could advise police prior to their next demonstration.
The initial call was #140326011.
We respect the rights of all citizens to peacefully protest and the right to bear arms. However, we cannot stress enough how a simple phone call to police prior to this demonstration and the use of easily visible signage could have avoided un-necessarily alarming the public.

So, this appears to be an unverified report from a sargent who says police officers said that Jack in the Box employees told them that this happened.

It will be interesting to see what the official police reports say.

©2014 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Link to Gun Watch

U
 
Posts: 19317 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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This is almost certainly not a hoax. http://www.dallasnews.com/news...ns-in-our-stores.ece
 
Posts: 13760 | Location: Texas | Registered: 10 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Have never eaten at a Chipotle restaurant. Have often considered trying them out, just never got around to it.

They just guaranteed that I never will.


NO COMPROMISE !!!

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"
 
Posts: 683 | Location: L A | Registered: 23 July 2002Reply With Quote
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And I'll bet Chipotle will be pleased, not alarmed, at the loss of your business. You do what you think is best. They have the right to do that too.


BTW, threatening not to do business with them isn't much of a threat, as you never have done business with them anyway.
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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Just to put this into better perspective, here is Chipotle's side of the story:

"It seems that some gun rights, um, advocates brought an assortment of long guns, shotguns and assault rifles to a self-declared “armed lunch” in Dallas recently and not all the other customers were tickled.



"We are respectfully asking that customers not bring guns into our restaurants, unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel," Chipotle said in a statement – a really, really polite statement. They added:



"We acknowledge that there are strong arguments on both sides of this issue. We have seen those differing positions expressed in the wake of this event in Texas, where pro-gun customers have contacted us to applaud our support of the Second Amendment, and anti-gun customers have expressed concern over the visible display of military-style assault rifles in restaurants where families are eating. The vast majority of gun owners are responsible citizens and we appreciate them honoring this request. And we hope that our customers who oppose the carrying of guns in public agree with us that it is the role of elected officials and the legislative process to set policy in this area, not the role of businesses like Chipotle.



We always welcome the exchange of ideas and opinions: it is one of the many things that make our country such a special place. But this issue is not central to the operation of our business, and we do not feel that our restaurants should be used as a platform for either side of the debate.”

It is worth noting that Chipotle is private property, not public property. Anyone who claims to believe in freedom should be the first to acknowledge that private property owners should be allowed to ask ANY kind of customers to conform with reasonable, peaceful, rules as to the use of their premises.
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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http://www.freerepublic.com/fo...f-news/3158554/posts

to comments.
FBI: More People Killed with Fists and Hammers Than with Rifles and Shotguns
breitbart.com ^ | 5/21/2014 | AWR Hawkins

Posted on ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2014‎ ‎9‎:‎41‎:‎40‎ ‎AM by rktman

On January 3, 2013, Breitbart News reported on the newest FBI crime statistics then available (2011) showing that more people are killed with hammers and clubs each year than are killed with rifles.

With newer crime statistics now out for 2012, Breitbart News can report that more people are killed each year with fists and hammers than are killed with rifles or shotguns.
 
Posts: 19317 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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http://thescoopblog.dallasnews...t-end-chipotle.html/

Here's the deal as far as I'm concerned. If I'm concealed carry and these two fools come into Chipotle where I'm sitting, I'm not waiting to determine whether they have an evil intent. They just have to raise the muzzle from the floor and I will kill the fat guy, because he's the bigger target. I'll hold on the skinny guy, as long as he doesn't flinch, and determine WTF is going on, and whether these guys are nuts. My guess is at this point the skinny guy doesn't have that silly grin on his face anymore. That doesn't help the fat guy who is bleeding-out. I don't believe a grand jury would indict me. Am I wrong?
 
Posts: 13760 | Location: Texas | Registered: 10 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Sigmund Freud,
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"
General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1920)
College course book read.
 
Posts: 1935 | Registered: 30 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Kenso

So if some one sees your pistol and thinks your reaching for and shoots you they are justified in doing so.

Do stupid things go to jail.

Intent is part of what makes a justified self defense shooting.

If there is no intent to commit harm the justification is not there.
 
Posts: 19317 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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So assuming they are a nut, if you are the first person they shoot because you hesitated waiting for clear intent, you're OK with that, and while you are bleeding out I guess you hope the next guy will make the move to save the lives you didn't.

and to answer your question, sure they are justified to shoot me. If I walk into Chipotle with a pistol in my hand, no one with a legal weapon has to wait until I fire the first shot. I don't care if I have a silly grin on my face and swearing to everyone that I'm just there for a photo-op and a little adrenalin rush to tell my buddies about.

If carrying, concealed, or otherwise, is of any value, someone has to have the balls to use it if a rapidly developing situation presents itself. In all these mass shootings I don't recall there ever being someone with a legally concealed weapon taking any action, and the body count goes to double digits.

I wish the media would interview every witness and simply ask the question, "were you carrying a concealed weapon, and what action did you take?"

If the lives of me and my family members may be at stake I hope I won't allow the other guy to get off the first round.

I guess the bigger question is, "define intent", and are you really going to raise your hand and ask a guy whether his intentions are good or bad, and are you really going to believe him?

Common sense says you don't need to come striding into Chipotle, or any other restaurant with an assault rifle, and if you do something stupid, like raise the weapon in the wrong direction, you should expect to pay the consequences.
 
Posts: 13760 | Location: Texas | Registered: 10 May 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Kenso

So if some one sees your pistol and thinks your reaching for and shoots you they are justified in doing so.

Do stupid things go to jail.

Intent is part of what makes a justified self defense shooting.

If there is no intent to commit harm the justification is not there.


That may be the case in your state, but in Texas, the reasonable belief that another is about to commit deadly harm would be the basis for the use of self defense deadly force. As mentioned by Kensco, divining intent in the very short period of time between someone raising a weapon and firing is not always easy. WTF are these guys accomplishing but making the vast majority of gun owners and Second Ad. supporters seem the same as the few nuts who would walk into fast food restaurants armed like they were going to war? Smart people pick their battles and battle grounds. IMO these yahoos ain't in the smart category.

The short version of the longer legal statutes:

quote:
Conduct is justified if:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;


However, the statute specifically states that a successful legal defense to the charge of whatever resulted from the use of deadly force, such as the actor's belief that he or others was in imminent danger, is NOT a defense against civil law suits.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
......we do not feel that our restaurants should be used as a platform for either side of the debate


Yet, they chose a side.

Yes, in this situation, they HAD to. Chipotle restaurants are privately owned, and the owners may ban legally firearms in their places of business. And I have the discretion to choose not to do business with them under those circumstances. And yes, individually, my decision will not cause them to rethink theirs. But MANY making the same decision will.

But there is a larger principle at stake. The following are not my words; I copied them from another forum. I would not normally use this language, but the information and the reasoning is correct. (emphasis added by me)

quote:

Too bad all these supposed pro 2A commentators here don't try researching the facts before they start running their mouths like a bunch of libtard sheep.

Texas doesn't allow open carry of pistol, only long guns. This was a protest demonstration for changing the open carry laws, where all parties concerned were notified in advance .

You know what really hurts the open carry movement?

When people practicing a Constitutional Right, not violating any laws, are attacked by a bunch of fair weather, politically correct, supposed Second Amendment supporters that take the same position as Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense . Way to go morons!

I don't see an asterisk marked footnote in the Second Amendment that says bearing arms is only allowed if it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, or make a bunch of pansies uncomfortable.


Citizens of Texas have tried for years to convince the Texas legislature to change the law, to make it legal to open-carry holstered sidearms. They have been ignored.

They are now LEGALLY and PEACEFULLY demonstrating the absurdity of the current law, to try to bring about that change.


NO COMPROMISE !!!

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"
 
Posts: 683 | Location: L A | Registered: 23 July 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
This was a protest demonstration for changing the open carry laws, where all parties concerned were notified in advance .


Somehow I have serious doubts that the customers were notified in advance.

I repeat, these morons need some common sense as does the moron who wrote your quote.

I'm one of the relative few who haven't eaten at a Chipotle's, but IF I were eating there, or anywhere, I'd prefer not to have a bunch of yahoos walking around with 15's, etc.

I think Chipotle's response was reasonable.

I think sex is wonderful, and while not a specified Constitutiional right, the right to have sex with consenting adults would certainly come under the unspecified category. That doesn't mean that I think consenting adults should be screwing on the dining tables just because it is a right. A more considered example would be if some religious nut came into Chipotle's and started screaming at the top of his lungs about hell, damnation, gays, whatever. He would and should be removed. I and other's, especially younger kids, have a right to peaceful dining without excessive displays of other's rights.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
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