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savage is coming out with a youth combination gun in .410/.22 lr and wmr. and me not being familiar with the 410, i wonder what its limitation are. i'm thinking geese might be stretching it, but how about black grouse and hares? and does it have a shorter range than 12ga? thanks. | ||
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One of Us |
I like the .410. It's limit on range comes as a result of having fewer pellets than a 12 or 20 gauge. The pellets have the same energy as the other gauges but as the range increases the 410 falls behind them in pattern density. The .410 is great for rabbits and forest grouse. It is good for pheasants and doves too but only within closer ranges. For rabbits the .22 rimfire adds another dimension. The shotgun is good for rabbits on the run at 25 meters. The rifle is good for stationary rabbits at longer ranges, at least in theory. That said, I prefer a SxS .410 to both a .22 rimfire rifle and a shotgun/rimfire combination. I've owned a couple of Savages in 20ga/.22LR and ended up using the 20ga for everything I hunted. I found the .22 was not accurate enough for shooting rabbits at distances beyond the capability of the shotgun. . | |||
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I've killed a lot of rabbits and squirrels with my .410 over the years. You can kill a pheasant with it, but I'm more comfortable with 20 ga as a minimum for pheasant. Grouse shouldn't be a problem. Not sure about the usefullness of the combo gun but I enjoy my .410 shotgun. | |||
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Black Grouse and Capercailie it isn't much of a weapon for. Ptarmigan is going to be fine. | |||
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I also feel that a .410 is not enough for black grouse and 20ga. would be minimum... Another problem with those Savages is, the bbls are rarely regulated properly! When the 22 is sight in, the shot bbl. is not! DM | |||
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I used a Chiappa "Double Badger" this year and enjoyed packing the tiny little beastie; its extra-tight 410 barrel holds a grouse/rabbit pattern out to 35 yards or a bit more, and surprisingly it put a Brenneke 410 slug within 3" of the .22 at 40 yards with the glo-sights--suggesting good enough accuracy for medium game should it be required. I suspect a black grouse or a turkey would be cinch for a 1/2oz slug at 1800 ft/sec. Since I have a Brno BBF in 7x57R/12ga, I didn't carry the Chiappa during deer season, but I sure noticed the weight difference when I was climbing around these hills! windy | |||
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| One of Us |
410 tend to have a tighter patten than a 12 or 20. They kill fine out to 30 or so yards but you need to be more accurate. I use a double blue 410 with 2 1/2" cartridges. If I can I use a clay load of no7 shot as opposed to larger 5s or 6s (British sizes). Better to keep shot size small to keep a fuller pattern. With bigger birds - ducks phaesant etc no issues with oncoming or crossing birds where you can hit the head and vitals. Going away they are somewhat armourplated and even a 12 struggles. | |||
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Not you original question, but IF you can I would go 20 gauge, 22 LR as a combo. Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
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My dad killed a pile of raised/pointed pheasants with a Mossberg 410. within range and bird limitations it's a fine cartridge. I use a Savage 24C-DL 22M/410 in my hunter education classes. About the only problem had by younger students is when they try to cock the hammer, but this has nothing to do with the gauge. | |||
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I have killed a small mountain of birds with a 410. Doves, quail, chukar (raised) & pheasants (raised). It does just fine as long as one limits their shots to reasonable ranges. It does not have the range of bigger guns. I have hammered quite a few squirrels with one as well. Again, range is an issue. Ducks or geese? I would not even try it. | |||
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one of us |
If a kid learns to hit flying birds with a 410 shotgun, he will never miss with a 12 ga! ........................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Right or wrong my father started me with a .410 bolt action hunting Teal. It was a hard way to learn but you are quite correct. When I got my 20 gauge it was a great improvement and then later my 12. Lots of dead birds in the past 50 years mostly on the wing. Dave In 100 years who of us will care? An armed society is a polite society! Just because they say you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you. | |||
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It's nearly worthless as a real game gauge. The shells are damn expensive, especially considering what you get. As recommended above, go for a 20/22 combo if at all possible. "410 tend to have tighter patterns than 12 or 20" Not true. Longer shot columns lead to more shot deformation, and worse patterns for any given amount of lead shot and equivalent choke restrictions. It's an expert only game gun and you will be doing a kid a real disservice if you start him on a .410 in the field. Yes, I know it's been done that way for many, many years but that doesn't mean it's a good way. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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| One of Us |
For 50 years I hated the .410. The one Mom & Dad bought me for Christmas when I was about 10 wouldn't kill anything beyond about 10 yards. Just a bad barrel I guess but it soured me on the bore size for decades. A few years ago I was given a .410 bolt gun by the wife of an uncle who passed away. I tried it around the house on vermin and voila'!!! That little gun shot and killed very well!!!! I rather like the little bore, in a decent gun. From my limited experience I believe the range and game size limitations set by others are realistic. I love combination guns, German and British but, have to admit to never having been enamored of the Savage. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me". John 14:6 | |||
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I have a single shot bolt action Lithgow 410 built on a SMLE action fantastic little rifle and cartridge my pop had a little sxs 410 when I was knee high to a grasshopper that I loved shooting empty cans with, and as stated earlier once you master the 410 the larger shotguns are a piece of piss to use successfully Danger and Death dance to the wild music of the gale, and when it is night they dance with a fiercer abandon, as if to allay the fears that beset the sailorman who feel their touch but see them not George H Grant | |||
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There was a show on TV today. The guy called in a gobbler super close and killed it with a 410 pistol. | |||
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| One of Us |
I remember as a kid, probably 13 or so, I put a soup can sized can on the ground and shot at it with the .410 barrel of my uncle's over & under. It was probably 25 or 30 yards away and there was dust all around it but not one single pellet hole in the can. Then I figured out why I missed most of the quail I shot at. | |||
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All that .410 talk reminds me of a very finely made Italian 4 barrel .410 shotgun I had seen. Had the weight and balance of a 12 ga double. I wonder how common that configuration is. | |||
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I was waiting for the shot column response. Reminds me I need to get another copy of Bob Brister's "Shotgunning: The Art and the Science" I traded my copy for four other books I never look at. Gato: don't many .410 loads lack wads with shot cups, or is that no longer an issue? | |||
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| one of us |
They come both ways. Many foreign manufactured loads use fiber wads, not plastic shot cups. I want to be clear, it is perfectly obvious that .410s can and have killed millions of birds, etc. However, it is FAR from a good choice of shotgun rounds for that purpose for MOST people. It is an expert's gun. Indeed, I was dove hunting next to an older fellow 25 years ago. I didn't know him, that particular day, most of the doves had left due to a front coming thru, so I had moved to another field to pick up a few stragglers. I didn't even know the guy was there, he was sitting in a lawn chair under a tree about 200 yds from me, until I heard a "peoww" and this dove, a long ways in front of him fluttered down. After a while, due to the unique sound, my curiosity got the best of me, and I wandered over to visit. This was a long ways from my first dove rodeo and this guy was making some damn difficult and LONG shots. He very rarely missed. His gun, Remington 870 in .410 using 3 inch Remington 6s. He had to be at least 70, but he could really shoot that gun. His shots were incredible all things considered. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Thanks; I am always interested in your posts on shotguns. | |||
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In my hands it's a 25 yd. gun. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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| Administrator |
I have no idea how many birds I have shot with a 410. Upto and including very large sea birds like big seagulls, heron, ducks etc. One learns to make sure his shot is well placed, as there are not that many pellets in a 410 cartridge. | |||
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By anyone's definition, you qualify as an expert. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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| One of Us |
I grew up shooting a .410. And I mean "shooting" as opposed to "hitting"! The price of the shells made is expensive for us kids to shoot, so we were careful with what we shot for. Never could hit much with that little single shot, unless it was culling out muskrats out of the canals. Even then, it often took two shots. I would never wish a .410 on any youth starter. Too frustrating, and really pointless when you consider the advances they have made with youth guns and ammo today. Light loads are readilly available in both 12 and 20 ga, with guns that fit the kids. Why torture them with half the payload of shot. I always promote parents to get their kids something they can hit targets with, so they are encouraged to keep up the sport and not just teach them to cuss while packing those pop-guns! I wont say that the little .410's of my past didn't teach me a bit how to shoot, I just think there's easier ways to keep kids involved. | |||
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