I know this will raise the ire of many members but we need a frank discussion of what are acceptable conditions and criteria for hunting lions in a controlled environment.

I believe we are into the last days of hunting wild lion.

Too many demands on land use, continuing human population growth, uncaring and corrupt governments...these negative conditions and trends impacting the lion have been well vetted on this forum.

So I believe we need an alternative strategy of preserving the
lion and lion hunting, in addition to the conservation measures
that have been directed towards wild lions and hunting them.

The current methods of hunting lions behind fencing leave much to be desired, in most cases. Let's see if we can develop an acceptable scenario.

No, I'm not suggesting we abandon good conservation and wild hunting. But we need to think through the future environment and help create a fall back plan.

So, a beginning tough question: what are acceptable conditions for a fenced lion hunt?

I have never had a desire to hunt lions, free range or behind high fence. I have no problem with folks that do want to hunt them free range.

The examples I have seen on the various hunting shows of lions inside a fence leave much to be desired, just as you stated.

With that said, I will adress the concept of farming lions and acceptable methods of hunting them. From what I know of lion physiology, I do not believe there is any way to raise lions in a captive situation, where a hunt for them would be as satisfying as a hunt for a wild free ranging animal.

All of this is just my opinion, but the big holdup with lions, concerns their social structure.

Unlike the other species of big cats, lions are dependent on a structured social order. Because of that aspect, lions, much like wolves, become easily habituated to humans, they stop being wild lions. Think about the ones in the various drive thru game parks in Africa.

Those animals were originally wild, until they realized that they had nothing to fear from the people in vehicles.

The amount of acreage it would require to maintain a suitable natural breeding and natural acting group of lions would be tremendous. Also, genetics have to be considered, meaning new males especially are going to have to be introduced from time to time.

I applaud the work the LCFT is putting forth, and hopefully they will be able to get people in the countries where the lions live working on a solution.

As far as farming lions goes,I think the logistics that would be involved to maintain a certain degree of wildness in the animals are just too numerous and the results would never be up to expectations.

Bob, I am a neophyte, but I think there is more here than just fences. The problem seems to be that the lions are not really lions! They are not the top predator. They don't know how to kill! A lion that does not know how to kill is not a real lion IMHO. So, again, bearing in mind that I don't know much, you need to have a large enough area where lions can be (wild) lions. They hunt and kill their own meals. They have a pride and breed. In other words they are wild!
Just my 2 cents. Other who know more will chime in, hopefuly.
Peter.

Bob - I honestly don't think wild lions or wild lion hunting is anywhere near the last days.

If hunters/PH's across Africa will more strictly adhere to age based lion harvest, wild lion hunting can and will be around for along time! Fact is, if it does NOT continue, neither will the vast majority of the wild lions. Of which, there are still plenty. We as the hunting community, just need to do a better job of proper lion management.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Bob - I honestly don't think wild lions or wild lion hunting is anywhere near the last days.

If hunters/PH's across Africa will more strictly adhere to age based lion harvest, wild lion hunting can and will be around for along time! Fact is, if it does NOT continue, neither will the vast majority of the wild lions. Of which, there are still plenty. We as the hunting community, just need to do a better job of proper lion management.

[CODE]

Aaron...this question of how long will we have wild lions and wild hunting has been debated here on AR.

I believe we have less time since I have little comfort from the actions or inactions of African governments. I hope good conservation measures will extend the period. But human population growth and land use conflicts will not be decreasing.

So my unfortunately pessimistic outlook is that we have 5-10 yrs of decreasing probability of maintaining our current state of lions and hunting. Two decades out we are highly probable of only seeing wild lion in the biggest of African parks.

So,again, we need alternative thinking.

Bob - Certainly I can't argue that your estimate is a possibility, it is. Really, it all depends on the hunting community, and the African Wildlife departments, and their desire/ability to manage and conserve the lion and his current habitat.

I don't think we need alternatives to sound management of the lion and his habitat. But the fact is, that itself hasn't completely happened yet.

quote:

With that said, I will adress the concept of farming lions and acceptable methods of hunting them. From what I know of lion physiology, I do not believe there is any way to raise lions in a captive situation, where a hunt for them would be as satisfying as a hunt for a wild free ranging animal.

I think the only "Captive" situation that could produce a real hunt is on an area stocked with wild lions and large enough to support natural behavior of the cats. Does it have to be as large as the big conservancies in Zim? I would think not but I don't know that.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:


I applaud the work the LCFT is putting forth, and hopefully they will be able to get people in the countries where the lions live working on a solution.
.

Help me here,is LCFT the Lion Conservation Fund?

LCTF It is LION CONSERVATION TASK FORCE. I think there was just a simple error on the letters

Bob,
I have no problem with any type of wildlife ranching and ranch raised wildlife utilization as long as it is done ethically.

Lions would be a challenge for sure. But with enough land, as Mark said, it could be accomplished.

However...if hunters and outfitters make the appropriate changes...wild lion hunting can continue indefinitely...it really is in our hands.

This is the reason we set up the LCTF...Lion Conservation Task Force.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Bob,
I have no problem with any type of wildlife ranching and ranch raised wildlife utilization as long as it is done ethically.

Lions would be a challenge for sure. But with enough land, as Mark said, it could be accomplished.

However...if hunters and outfitters make the appropriate changes...wild lion hunting can continue indefinitely...it really is in our hands.

This is the reason we set up the LCTF...Lion Conservation Task Force.

Is this the Conservation Force organization?
If not, pls post some contact info for LCTF.

Although we work closely with Conservation Force...we are seperate with slightly different agendas. We do highly recommend CF as a good place to donate towards lion conservation and support all of their vast array of work and achievements.

Contact me at: ledvm@msn.com or Aaron Neilson at: globalhunts@aol.com

quote:

Originally posted by bobgrow:
.....................

So, a beginning tough question: what are acceptable conditions for a fenced lion hunt?

There has been some good discussion, but the question remains largely unanswered. As my attempt to give a meaningful reply to the question I’ll make a few statements about which conditions I think are not acceptable for a “fenced captive bred and released lion hunt”. Any critic attempting to throw stones and pick a fight, forget it! My opposition to canned lion shooting is known, I’m here merely addressing an issue raised by the quoted question.
1. The client must not be lied to about the true status of the lion he is about to ’hunt’. Any attempt at dishing up of a captive bred lion and then released into a fenced killing area as a “stray that has crossed over the border” and other similar crap is totally unacceptable. If a hunting outfitter offers a captive bred and released lion to be ‘hunted’ with a clear statement about the true nature of the animal to be shot then I have very little to say about the size of the enclosure.
2. The lion to be ‘hunted’ should have had sufficient time to fully recover from the trauma of being transported from wherever it was raised and have had sufficient time to explore and get to know the area in which he will be shot. A period of a week or so between the release and the ‘hunt’ comes to mind. That will also allow sufficient time for the effect of any tranquilizer administered before transporting the lion to wear off.
3. The ‘hunter’ and his PH should search for the lion on foot. The actual size of the enclosure into which a lion is released is not as critical as the requirement that there must be some places for the lion to hide, and so make the search for the lion meaningful.

I hope these few thoughts will help others to understand the concept of “acceptable conditions for the ‘hunting’ of a captive bred and released lion”.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew...thanks for outlining some conditions to be get this discussion underway.

I have no disagreement with your position and hopefully some others who are close to this class of hunt will voice a position.It would be beneficial if those in the business would step up and give us some opinions on how they see it. I suspect there are several AR members who outfit or act as PHs in canned lion hunts.

It obvious that those dedicated solely to conservation and wild hunts do not want to give this proposition of improving canned hunts much credence. But the forecast remains dim as I've noted earlier.