quote:

Aaron,



I am in Germany and going on to a project site in Sierra Leone for about a week but when I return I can use colors that are not possible on my Blackberry as I travel. Please let me express some studied concerns that time has not permitted.



Yes, Tanzania has a statutory 6 year minimum which will be regulatorily enforced in a stepped down fashion, i.e. progressively the younger the lion, the worse the consequences including prohibition against export, fines and loss of PH license. Steps are being taken to formally include aging technique in the Curriculum at Mweka and I can't disclose the details but steps have been initiated to verify the age before early summer. What you may not realize is that someone has been instigating Law Enforcement, special agents, who are gearing up to seize trophies, fine, and in due course criminally prosecute US hunters that violate the new Tanzania law. I am torn between advising hunters not to import their trophies if in doubt and telling them not to import lion from Tanzania at all unless they are crazy. I mean, should a person in his right mind risk a felony conviction or, win or lose, a prosecution and related record? It can cost a million dollars to defend yourself! If you think this is insane, it is. Let's say I don't issue an alert and one of my friends loses his lion or worse. What is the reaction going to be? A lawyer does not have to tell hunters that they may be at risk and a prudent person should not import one. I've taken over 500 whitetail and know the 7 year rule for them well, but would not shoot another if the age exposed me to even a hassle with special agents. Those that can afford a 21 day Tanzania safari (required to lion hunt) may choose not to go at all, or not hunt lion.The potential ramifications of the above for the lion and lion hunting are perhaps far greater than we all imagine. If a PH/Operator can’t “guarantee” to a client that a particular lion is accurately aged over the set minimum (eg 6 y.o. in Tz) at the time of harvesting, thereby guaranteeing immunity from any investigation into a violation by USFW (And the EU & others will shortly follow their lead) at the time of importing the trophies, how many clients would be willing to book a hunt for lion in Tz? I would expect a significant drop in lion hunt bookings – regardless if we start selling “A SAFARI EXPERIENCE” instead of a lion hunt! With less demand for lion hunts, how are we going to retain the economic value of lions which we all agree is necessary for its survival?



Second, there are seasoned hunters and PH that don't believe you can pragmatically tell the age of a lion. The threat of it being listed on Appendix I was the reason for the new statutory requirement, but it is not ready for blanket adoption based upon one graduate student's model until Tanzania field tests its practical application experimentally. We are still learning to age lion after they are hunted much less the subjective determination before shooting. Since when is subjective field aging simple? Is it ever? Do we really know the age from a tooth x-ray?



Sincerely,


John JacksonCraig,



The listing petition comes at a very poor time. As hard as the stake holders have been trying, there is too much still unresolved.



Sincerely,


John Jackson.

quote:

I again want to caution everyone that the local variations need to be viewed more holistically. The key variables are the minimum age that the males can successfully compete for access to prides and the interbirth interval. The optimal age minimum could be as high as 8 yrs in certain circumstances.
The cardinal rule for the hunting operators should be: do no harm to the local lion population.
Thus it will be essential to collect localized demographic data as well as local data on rates of physical maturation.
Everyone should contribute to an overall database that measure how closely tooth wear, mane growth, nose pigmentation, etc., co-vary with each other across populations -- and that can eventually be calibrated against known-aged lions.
With enough data it might be possible to use rainfall, soil quality, prey biomass, etc, to predict how maturation rates and interbirth intervals vary from one ecosystem to another without having to perform extensive field studies all over the place.
If the highest priority is to "do no harm to the population," operators are going to have to accept far lower offtakes than they might have harvested in the past or might desire to harvest in the future.
Again, I think the biggest challenge will be to sell ADVENTURE rather than dead lions. It is the OPPORTUNITY to hunt a wild lion that must be emphasized, not a lion trophy.


Craig Packer.

quote:

Brad,

What do you find so enlightening in that conversation?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Brad,

What do you find so enlightening in that conversation?

which side?

quote:

I again want to caution everyone that the local variations need to be viewed more holistically.

There have been many arguements on this forum about using Data from one area to apply management in all areas, one side seems to feel (I am on this side), that is bad science and management. I take Mr. Packers statement here to stay that we need to be careful giving too much creedence to those variations because masses of data can be accumulated, aggregated and averaged to come up with an accurate medium, in my limited experience, this is a tactic of people dealing with a complex issue where they could never hope to gather all of the data and come up with a "one size fits all" plan and that gets in the way of their desire to manage and control everything on the subject.

The key variables are the minimum age that the males can successfully compete for access to prides and the interbirth interval. The optimal age minimum could be as high as 8 yrs in certain circumstances.

This gets to another very contentious point on this subject, which is "how old is old enough?" (simplified). The general concensus seems to be 5yrs is allowable, >6 yrs is preferred, I believe Mr. Packer has even mentioned these numbers in some of his papers and on his website. Now he is stating that the age of sustainably harvestable maturity may be as old as 8yrs? I feel this man is telling you people (LCTF) everything, you just are not listening.

The cardinal rule for the hunting operators should be: do no harm to the local lion population.
Thus it will be essential to collect localized demographic data as well as local data on rates of physical maturation.
Everyone should contribute to an overall database that measure how closely tooth wear, mane growth, nose pigmentation, etc., co-vary with each other across populations -- and that can eventually be calibrated against known-aged lions.
With enough data it might be possible to use rainfall, soil quality, prey biomass, etc, to predict how maturation rates and interbirth intervals vary from one ecosystem to another without having to perform extensive field studies all over the place.

In my interpretation, this statement is his plan of how to manage his first statement, he feels like he can build a database of accumulated data, plug it into a computer model and it will spit out the answers to the pertinent questions in specific locations. I personally think this is the most telling of all his statements, go read how some of his models were put together on the paper I posted. The person who inputs the data and designs the model and how it interprets the data, controls the results that are formulated. A computer is not a magical wizard that you put everything in and it figures out what to do with it, where to put it, etc. It is just a machine that does what a man tells it to do.

If the highest priority is to "do no harm to the population," operators are going to have to accept far lower offtakes than they might have harvested in the past or might desire to harvest in the future.
Again, I think the biggest challenge will be to sell ADVENTURE rather than dead lions. It is the OPPORTUNITY to hunt a wild lion that must be emphasized, not a lion trophy.

OK, I was mistaken above, This is the most of all his statements, the man wants to turn lion hunting into bird watching. I have news for you, lion hunting is about a team of men putting together and altering/adapting a plan to kill the apex land predator on this planet, the "King of Beasts", you turn it into something else and it will no longer be "lion hunting". Once again, I think this man is telling you everything, but you are not listening.


Craig Packer.

quote:

Aaron,



I am in Germany and going on to a project site in Sierra Leone for about a week but when I return I can use colors that are not possible on my Blackberry as I travel. Please let me express some studied concerns that time has not permitted.



Yes, Tanzania has a statutory 6 year minimum which will be regulatorily enforced in a stepped down fashion, i.e. progressively the younger the lion, the worse the consequences including prohibition against export, fines and loss of PH license. Steps are being taken to formally include aging technique in the Curriculum at Mweka and I can't disclose the details but steps have been initiated to verify the age before early summer. What you may not realize is that someone has been instigating Law Enforcement, special agents, who are gearing up to seize trophies, fine, and in due course criminally prosecute US hunters that violate the new Tanzania law. I am torn between advising hunters not to import their trophies if in doubt and telling them not to import lion from Tanzania at all unless they are crazy. I mean, should a person in his right mind risk a felony conviction or, win or lose, a prosecution and related record? It can cost a million dollars to defend yourself! If you think this is insane, it is. Let's say I don't issue an alert and one of my friends loses his lion or worse. What is the reaction going to be? A lawyer does not have to tell hunters that they may be at risk and a prudent person should not import one. I've taken over 500 whitetail and know the 7 year rule for them well, but would not shoot another if the age exposed me to even a hassle with special agents. Those that can afford a 21 day Tanzania safari (required to lion hunt) may choose not to go at all, or not hunt lion.

I feel the above staements reveal the real underlying reason behind some peoples desire to put in place legally enforceable age restrictions on lion hunting, it is to end lion hunting. I would hope that I do not need to reiterate Mr. Jacksons point to show his reasoning and logic, he is spot on.

Second, there are seasoned hunters and PH that don't believe you can pragmatically tell the age of a lion. The threat of it being listed on Appendix I was the reason for the new statutory requirement, but it is not ready for blanket adoption based upon one graduate student's model until Tanzania field tests its practical application experimentally. We are still learning to age lion after they are hunted much less the subjective determination before shooting. Since when is subjective field aging simple? Is it ever? Do we really know the age from a tooth x-ray?

I feel this statement makes STU's and others point quite well, It amazes me that the zealots in the LCTF disagree with today what they clearly agreed with a year ago, maybe they are trying to get something from someone?

Sincerely,


John JacksonCraig,



The listing petition comes at a very poor time. As hard as the stake holders have been trying, there is too much still unresolved.



Sincerely,


John Jackson.

quote:

The potential ramifications of the above for the lion and lion hunting are perhaps far greater than we all imagine. If a PH/Operator can’t “guarantee” to a client that a particular lion is accurately aged over the set minimum (eg 6 y.o. in Tz) at the time of harvesting, thereby guaranteeing immunity from any investigation into a violation by USFW (And the EU & others will shortly follow their lead) at the time of importing the trophies, how many clients would be willing to book a hunt for lion in Tz? I would expect a significant drop in lion hunt bookings – regardless if we start selling “A SAFARI EXPERIENCE” instead of a lion hunt! With less demand for lion hunts, how are we going to retain the economic value of lions which we all agree is necessary for its survival?

I believe this statement references both Mr. Jacksons letter and Mr. Packers statement and his not only self explanitory, but is spot on.

quote:

Brad,

Here are some facts:

1) Craig Packer is one of the worlds leading lion experts. He is recognized as such by those who have the power of the pen. He will have input on the ESA listing. Probably more so than any other single individual.

Ya, you said that already, multiple times. When would you like to start discussing the details of his papers?

2) He did not get the title of world's leading expert for nothing. He does know a lot about lions. Conservation Force recognizes him as a leading expert, works with him as such, and funds relevant research when applicable.

Ya, you said most of that already as well, when would you like to start discussing the details of his papers?

3) He is NOT for a ban on hunting. I have him on record of stating that several times.

What record? I' have read in black and white what he says and it suggests something entirely different. But I forgot, what someone writes means nothing, your private conversations are what will be listened to when the final deciions are made.

4) He does have many opinions that are different from the LCTF. Some of those you have highlighted. I am on record of saying he is left-winged.

Actually, for the record, below are your quotes about Craig Packer:

quote:

Packer is scientifically smart but he is a far-left winged socialist.

He is one of the reasons I have worked hard to promote TAMU's research as they are NOT.

I would not let the UN guard my outhouse. In my opinion...the UN is one of the scourges of Africa and especially its wildlife. I have found UN officials to be arrogant ass-holes...to put it politiely!

Did any of you watch the Documentery on TGTS anti-poaching project???

They reckoned UN camps were hotbeds for selling bush-meat.

The formation of the UN has been one of the great debacles of world history.

Guard the wildlife...hell...the most dangerous part of my last trip to Africa was dodging the F@*&ing UN vehicles as they tried to run you off the road.

Craig Packer and UN =>

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

quote:

Steve,
Please look at the 3 quotes I listed above. Then read below.

CP is smart. His research on lions is valid and useful.

But...he is part of the political machine. And...I may add...a part which I vehemently disagree with.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS
_____________________

quote:

He is both smart and a moron at the same time. This makes him a very dangerous person.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

quote:

quote:
Where CP is concerned, I'm sure he knows considerably more about lions than all of us.....


Me included. I just don't like where he is headed.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

quote:

Bwanamich,

I get irritated with CP not from his ignorance of lion ecology...I believe him to be truly intellgent here...but from the politics he plays and his flip-flopping back and forth with the hunting/anti-hunting community. He is either afflicted with bi-polar syndrome or he plays to the one doling out the money that day.

Unfortunately it is common in research...A researcher must feed hisself with grant money to self-perpetuate so: The Golden Rule applies once more...He who has the gold makes the rules!!!

I...I believe...see a bigger picture. Lions must have monetary value to survive in Africa in the wild. No difference than the White-tailed deer in US. Rnachers used to hate them. Now they love them cause they are worth MONEY...hence now many!

Lions must have worth for cattle ranchers to not poison and for 3rd world countries to set aside habitat that could be used for cattle & crops.

So...for the future longevity of the LION...hunting and science MUST go hand in hand without the fear of back-stabbing!!!

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS

5) The LCTF can agree with him in some respects. The main one being that the "regular" taking of male lions less than 5 does not contribute in a positive way to increasing or stabilizing the lion population. In fact we agree that it harms it.

OK, you've named 1, now name "some". What about if his computer model says they should be >8yrs?

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DRSS