quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Aaron,

For example there is a quite a difference between the pricing of a Leopard and a Lion hunt, but same daily routine same bottle of wine on the table. Therefore there are margins of profit that could be looked at as a refund or some compensation?

Totally agree and if the operator and area has a history of producing good Lion, there is much evidence of your quarry as in sight and sound, and your chances are 50% plus then sure I agree that is hunting my friend and half the clients will go home empty handed but knowing the had a bloody good chance.

I for one really cannot afford to extend this rebate but I do because firstly I am unsure that I can provide the 6 year plus cat and secondly it takes the pressure off all parties to take any Lion which in itself is a conservation measure.

However knowing the Kafue and what I have seen on my boundary, and indeed the recovery of the area there is a strong possibility of taking a world class trophy Lion.

If this is to happen then I will be increasing the trophy fee substantially in the years to come but will still offer an affordable opportunity, one which does not disadvantage the hunter.

Just my way mate and let us see how all this pans out.

Best of luck with your season and look forward to hearing about your hunting up north.

Cheers

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Yep, in most cases it sounds like a great idea - right up until you're the guy who's actually PAYING to run/operate the gig!

AAW - I too know Tom, we spent lots of time together last week in Vegas. I guarantee you, he would have a whole different perspective, he if was the outfitter, rather than the PH. Try that in TZ, and the operators in most cases will go bankrupt!

"Fairgame" has 1 lion on quota, on a 30,000 acre piece of property. Nothing wrong with that at all, but comparing that to the running/operating cost of a major TZ hunting operation, operating 5-10 hunting blocks, etc, etc, etc. Is not a comparison at all!

Good idea though!

I asked for one Lion in a 45,000 acre area. I am
in close proximity to the 27,000 km2 Kafue National Park which will be my feeder area. I am the operator and yes things will be very tight this year.

And your end I hear 17 safaris and one Lion shot? That is an awful lot of income for the purchase of one Lion tag.

Good idea though and I can now go and sell this hunt 16 times over?

Martin Pieters has also been advertising high trophy fees for Lion and lower daily rates.

Andrew - You and I have been buddies for along time, and we will continue to be so in the future.

Trust me, it will NOT work in most of TZ's areas - period! Take it for what you will!

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Yep, in most cases it sounds like a great idea - right up until you're the guy who's actually PAYING to run/operate the gig!

AAW - I too know Tom, we spent lots of time together last week in Vegas. I guarantee you, he would have a whole different perspective, he if was the outfitter, rather than the PH. Try that in TZ, and the operators in most cases will go bankrupt!

"Fairgame" has 1 lion on quota, on a 30,000 acre piece of property. Nothing wrong with that at all, but comparing that to the running/operating cost of a major TZ hunting operation, operating 5-10 hunting blocks, etc, etc, etc. Is not a comparison at all!

Good idea though!

I asked for one Lion in a 45,000 acre area. I am
in close proximity to the 27,000 km2 Kafue National Park which will be my feeder area. I am the operator and yes things will be very tight this year.

And your end I hear 17 safaris and one Lion shot? That is an awful lot of income for the purchase of one Lion tag.

Good idea though and I can now go and sell this hunt 16 times over?

Martin Pieters has also been advertising high trophy fees for Lion and lower daily rates.

Andrew - You and I have been buddies for along time, and we will continue to be so in the future.

Trust me, it will NOT work in most of TZ's areas - period! Take it for what you will!

Aaron:

But if it did work, it would lower your commission, would it not? Is that in any way clouding your thinking?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:


I asked for one Lion in a 45,000 acre area. I am
in close proximity to the 27,000 km2 Kafue National Park which will be my feeder area. I am the operator and yes things will be very tight this year.

And your end I hear 17 safaris and one Lion shot? That is an awful lot of income for the purchase of one Lion tag.

Good idea though and I can now go and sell this hunt 16 times over?

Martin Pieters has also been advertising high trophy fees for Lion and lower daily rates.

quote:

505 - How many times have we been through this before, and how often do some of you guys simply not pay attention, cause its not what you want to hear???

I don't "want to hear" anything other than a logical explanation to the question I asked, and, you and I have never had a conversation about this specific subject, so don't be a dick when I just ask. I have no idea whether this is economically feasable or not, my question is acknowledgement that I do not know, but would like to learn. So brace yourself Aaron, I am going to ask more questions, it is not because I am stating that you are wrong, rather I am trying to audit in my mind how this works.

I'll give ONE quick example, the same example I've given before.

1. As you know, I work for Danny McCallum in TZ. TZ govt as you might know, charges each concession holder a fair amount of money per year to "lease" the concession - often referred to as a business "expense"

2. Danny's 5 big concessions are in SW - TZ, the TZ wildlife dept DOES NOT allow any concession holder - anywhere in TZ to erect/build or leave permanent camp structures. Thus, in Early June Danny/crew depart Arusha for the 5-day drive, with a 27-vehicle convoy, that's right, 27 vehicle convoy, bound for Lukwati/Chunya/Piti, so they can erect/build the camps within his 8 million acres. And guess what, in November of each year, they take it all down, and convoy back to Arusha. Again, this could simply be described as a HUGE business "expense".

3. Danny also has advertising/marketing costs, travel costs, insurance, food, fuel, PH's, staff, anti-poaching, over 30 vehicles that require yearly maintenance, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Once again, often referred to as business "expenses".

Is the overhead more to service 1 lion hunter than it is 1 leopard hunter? I am asking about overhead, not baits (which are paid for by the hunter)or other assundries that are seperated and added to the clients bill.
I am assuming the answer to the above question is "no" as they use the same trucks, eat the same amount of food, stay in the same quarters, crap in the same toilet, etc.. Now, if the overhead for the lion hunter is the same as the leopard hunter, how is his daily rate set? I would assume it is set by "what the market will bear". so lets say $2k per day for 18 days for a lion hunter and $1500 per day for 14 days for the leopard. I would also assume that the operator has tried to shape and control his overhead figuring booking at the above rates (and others considering his quota). As I understnd you, you are saying that say above operator has 3 lions on quota, he books those 3 hunts at the above rates because he needs $108,000 (18x$2kx3) in daily fees to cover his overhead and make a profit per his "business model"? Correct? I understand the above scenario, and no doubt, it would hurt that operator financially if he cut those unsuccessful back to a leopard rate (to the tune of -$15,000 per unsuccessful lion hunter), no doubt, that would screw his "budget". My question falls into the scenario of when he books more hunts than he has lion because he knows by past experience that he has 30% success on lion hunts, so he books 5 hunts instead of 3, at that point, it would not hurt him to cut SOME that are not successful to some degree, no?

Really, NOT ONE bit different than your masonry business, except some are hoping that he will skip on his profit margin, until they are successful in their lion hunting endeavors. Even though, every-single one of his "business" expenses, including conducting each client's safari - will remain the same, regardless of success.

Now, I know nothing about the masonry business, nothing at all. I'm gonna make an assumption here, and I could be wrong, so excuse me if I am. But I assume if you do a masonry job, you offer some sort of work guarantee? In other words, I "505 Gibbs" guarantee the masonry job I just did for the next 3 yrs, maybe 5, maybe 1 yr, I don't know. But certainly that happens in numerous occupations. At the same time, you expect and charge a full 100% of what you need to charge to cover expenses and make your anticipated/expected profit margin. I doubt you PERSONALLY, as the company owner are doing it for everyone else's benefit, but your own, correct? So, with all that said - how about this? Would you agree to do a job, and I'll use simple numbers here - as this is only an example, for $10,000.00, but agree that I as the customer, can retain 20% of the money ($2k) until the 3 year guarantee that you made me expires, and nothing "bad" happened to the work/job you performed? Doubtful!!! And why, because likely that $2k is a large part of, or ALL of your profit on the job. Obviously I may be off a bit here, but you know what I mean.

I think I understand where you are going with the above, but it is really not a good comparison (actually, I am not a masonry contractor), but if I was, I would bid a job, sign a contract and it would be completely in my control whether I fulfill that contract or not. Versus an outfitter books a HUNT for a wild animal, and has no control (ultimately) of whether that animal can be found, much less killed. To me, this issue was more about operators finding a way to fill their quota (however many hunts that takes), covering their overhead and making their profit while not taking advantage of the consumer. Especially on the front end, as that opens the door for unscrupulous behaviour.

And that is only a partial comparison, because in the end, you can "guarantee" your work, and could/would eventually get paid, period. But likely you are not gonna be willing to wait 1, 2, 3, 5, yrs for the additional 20% still owed on the job.

Is someone suggesting that an outfitter provide services and then wait 1-5 years for some portion of his compensation for those services? If so, it was not me.

Bottom line, and you guys who are NOT in the hunting/oufitting business can take what I say at face value when I say that many of them SIMPLY COULD NOT AFFORD to do as you suggest, as still stay in business. Or, you can simply think I'm more concerned about my potential lost commission! Its up to you.

I have not said one word about your commission or pay rate, so settle down.

Have a nice day!

Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
www.globalhuntingresources.com
globalhunts@aol.com
303-619-2872

quote:

My question falls into the scenario of when he books more hunts than he has lion because he knows by past experience that he has 30% success on lion hunts, so he books 5 hunts instead of 3, at that point, it would not hurt him to cut SOME that are not successful to some degree, no?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I would like to know if Andrew is charging different daily rates for a lion hunt and a leopard hunt or is he charging the same daily rate for both types of hunts but just adding different additional fees if the hunter connects with one of these species?

Why are daily rates different for different hunt packages? Good question.... why do hotels charge different rates for the same room at different times of the year?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

505 - How many times have we been through this before, and how often do some of you guys simply not pay attention, cause its not what you want to hear???

I don't "want to hear" anything other than a logical explanation to the question I asked, and, you and I have never had a conversation about this specific subject, so don't be a dick when I just ask. I have no idea whether this is economically feasable or not, my question is acknowledgement that I do not know, but would like to learn. So brace yourself Aaron, I am going to ask more questions, it is not because I am stating that you are wrong, rather I am trying to audit in my mind how this works.

I'll give ONE quick example, the same example I've given before.

1. As you know, I work for Danny McCallum in TZ. TZ govt as you might know, charges each concession holder a fair amount of money per year to "lease" the concession - often referred to as a business "expense"

2. Danny's 5 big concessions are in SW - TZ, the TZ wildlife dept DOES NOT allow any concession holder - anywhere in TZ to erect/build or leave permanent camp structures. Thus, in Early June Danny/crew depart Arusha for the 5-day drive, with a 27-vehicle convoy, that's right, 27 vehicle convoy, bound for Lukwati/Chunya/Piti, so they can erect/build the camps within his 8 million acres. And guess what, in November of each year, they take it all down, and convoy back to Arusha. Again, this could simply be described as a HUGE business "expense".

3. Danny also has advertising/marketing costs, travel costs, insurance, food, fuel, PH's, staff, anti-poaching, over 30 vehicles that require yearly maintenance, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Once again, often referred to as business "expenses".

Is the overhead more to service 1 lion hunter than it is 1 leopard hunter? I am asking about overhead, not baits (which are paid for by the hunter)or other assundries that are seperated and added to the clients bill.
I am assuming the answer to the above question is "no" as they use the same trucks, eat the same amount of food, stay in the same quarters, crap in the same toilet, etc.. Now, if the overhead for the lion hunter is the same as the leopard hunter, how is his daily rate set? I would assume it is set by "what the market will bear". so lets say $2k per day for 18 days for a lion hunter and $1500 per day for 14 days for the leopard. I would also assume that the operator has tried to shape and control his overhead figuring booking at the above rates (and others considering his quota). As I understnd you, you are saying that say above operator has 3 lions on quota, he books those 3 hunts at the above rates because he needs $108,000 (18x$2kx3) in daily fees to cover his overhead and make a profit per his "business model"? Correct? I understand the above scenario, and no doubt, it would hurt that operator financially if he cut those unsuccessful back to a leopard rate (to the tune of -$15,000 per unsuccessful lion hunter), no doubt, that would screw his "budget". My question falls into the scenario of when he books more hunts than he has lion because he knows by past experience that he has 30% success on lion hunts, so he books 5 hunts instead of 3, at that point, it would not hurt him to cut SOME that are not successful to some degree, no?

Really, NOT ONE bit different than your masonry business, except some are hoping that he will skip on his profit margin, until they are successful in their lion hunting endeavors. Even though, every-single one of his "business" expenses, including conducting each client's safari - will remain the same, regardless of success.

Now, I know nothing about the masonry business, nothing at all. I'm gonna make an assumption here, and I could be wrong, so excuse me if I am. But I assume if you do a masonry job, you offer some sort of work guarantee? In other words, I "505 Gibbs" guarantee the masonry job I just did for the next 3 yrs, maybe 5, maybe 1 yr, I don't know. But certainly that happens in numerous occupations. At the same time, you expect and charge a full 100% of what you need to charge to cover expenses and make your anticipated/expected profit margin. I doubt you PERSONALLY, as the company owner are doing it for everyone else's benefit, but your own, correct? So, with all that said - how about this? Would you agree to do a job, and I'll use simple numbers here - as this is only an example, for $10,000.00, but agree that I as the customer, can retain 20% of the money ($2k) until the 3 year guarantee that you made me expires, and nothing "bad" happened to the work/job you performed? Doubtful!!! And why, because likely that $2k is a large part of, or ALL of your profit on the job. Obviously I may be off a bit here, but you know what I mean.

I think I understand where you are going with the above, but it is really not a good comparison (actually, I am not a masonry contractor), but if I was, I would bid a job, sign a contract and it would be completely in my control whether I fulfill that contract or not. Versus an outfitter books a HUNT for a wild animal, and has no control (ultimately) of whether that animal can be found, much less killed. To me, this issue was more about operators finding a way to fill their quota (however many hunts that takes), covering their overhead and making their profit while not taking advantage of the consumer. Especially on the front end, as that opens the door for unscrupulous behaviour.

And that is only a partial comparison, because in the end, you can "guarantee" your work, and could/would eventually get paid, period. But likely you are not gonna be willing to wait 1, 2, 3, 5, yrs for the additional 20% still owed on the job.

Is someone suggesting that an outfitter provide services and then wait 1-5 years for some portion of his compensation for those services? If so, it was not me.

Bottom line, and you guys who are NOT in the hunting/oufitting business can take what I say at face value when I say that many of them SIMPLY COULD NOT AFFORD to do as you suggest, as still stay in business. Or, you can simply think I'm more concerned about my potential lost commission! Its up to you.

I have not said one word about your commission or pay rate, so settle down.

Have a nice day!

Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
www.globalhuntingresources.com
globalhunts@aol.com
303-619-2872